Why all the Fuss on the Reformation?

[PRmerger]

Exactly. It’s the old Catholic “both/and” premise, so common a response to the false dichotomies presented to us.

Just as St. Paul commanded that the faith be spread. Amazing, Catholicism is again so scriptural.

Yes. The good ol’ Catholic both/and is what make Catholicism so formidable and irrefutable.

There is no need to create dichotomies where none exist.

I read somewhere that the catalyst for almost all heresies was the insertion of some either/or by some (fallible) man where none was necessary.

To wit:
Arius: Jesus is man. Therefore, Jesus cannot be God.

Luther: Faith alone. Therefore, works are not necessary.

Atheists: Science alone. Therefore, Faith is not necessary.

Lots of Christians: the Eucharist is symbolic only. Therefore, it cannot also be the Real Presence.

Lots of Fundamentalists: Genesis is literal only. Therefore, it cannot also be allegorical, poetic, anagogical, etc etc etc

Why create some sort of dichotomy where non exists?

 

[FathersKnowBest]

Agreed. What you call ‘justification’ we split into ‘justification’ (initial) and sanctification (long term).

I understand that. In Catholic theology, and in scripture, the two are inseparably entwined.
In order to be “finally” justified, we need to be sanctified. We need that holiness “without which it is impossible to see God.”

He begins breaking the power of sin in our lives after breaking its legal authority over us at the Cross.

He forgives us, true, but sin still has power over us.
We need to renew our relationship with Him every day, to receive His Grace, in order to keep ourselves free from sin.

As you may know, this point is the one that I think removes the Reformed very far from the Lutheran-Catholic-Orthodox conception. Presbyterians vehemently rejected apostolic succession in the Reformation, I think mainly because of corruption., and finding the election, not the appointment of elders (not bishops) in the early church and the Bible.

Yeah. That is one of their misreadings of scripture.

One of Trent’s reforms was that the clergy must be trained beyond the mechanics of the rituals, even educated, and some of the corruption of the bishops was halted.

In studying Church History, some of the issues regarding the poor training of clergy became apparent. One thing that I hadn’t considered before was the effect of the Black Plague on the availability of trained priests. With the recurrent plague, there was one group of people who were a. educated and b. motivated by love of God and neighbor to dive in and help out. As a result, they were disproportionately affected by the plagues and their numbers diminished. So, replacements were rushed through with insufficient grounding.

 

[JonNC]

Yes. The good ol’ Catholic both/and is what make Catholicism so formidable and irrefutable.

There is no need to create dichotomies where none exist.

I read somewhere that the catalyst for almost all heresies was the insertion of some either/or by some (fallible) man where none was necessary.

To wit:
Arius: Jesus is man. Therefore, Jesus cannot be God.

Luther: Faith alone. Therefore, works are not necessary.

Atheists: Science alone. Therefore, Faith is not necessary.

Lots of Christians: the Eucharist is symbolic only. Therefore, it cannot also be the Real Presence.

Lots of Fundamentalists: Genesis is literal only. Therefore, it cannot also be allegorical, poetic, anagogical, etc etc etc

Why create some sort of dichotomy where non exists?

Come now, PR,

To think, “If faith justifies without works, let us work nothing,” is to despise the grace of God. Idle faith is not justifying faith.

The Apostle exhorts all Christians to practice good works after they have embraced the pure doctrine of faith, because even though they have been justified they still have the old flesh to refrain them from doing good. Therefore it becomes necessary that sincere preachers cultivate the** doctrine of good works **as diligently as the doctrine of faith, for Satan is a deadly enemy of both.

It is tersely spoken: “Love thy neighbour as thyself.” But what more needs to be said? You cannot find a better or nearer example than your own. If you want to know how you ought to love your neighbor, ask yourself how much you love yourself. If you were to get into trouble or danger, you would be glad to have the love and help of all men. You do not need any book of instructions to teach you how to love your neighbor. All you have to do is to look into your own heart, and it will tell you how you ought to love your neighbor as yourself.

What I have hitherto and constantly taught concerning this I know not how to change in the least, namely, that by faith, as St. Peter says, we acquire a new and clean heart, and God will and does account us entirely righteous and holy for the sake of Christ, our Mediator. And although sin in the flesh has not yet been altogether removed or become dead, yet He will not punish or remember it.

2] And such faith, renewal, and forgiveness of sins is followed by good works. And what there is still sinful or imperfect also in them shall not be accounted as sin or defect, even [and that, too] for Christ’s sake; but the entire man, both as to his person and his works, is to be called and to be righteous and holy from pure grace and mercy, shed upon us [unfolded] and spread over us in Christ. 3] Therefore we cannot boast of many merits and works, if they are viewed apart from grace and mercy, but as it is written, 1 Cor. 1:31: He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord, namely, that he has a gracious God. For thus all is well. 4] We say, besides, that if good works do not follow, faith is false and not true.

Works are, indeed, necessary, according to Luther.

Jon

 

[PRmerger]

Come now, PR,

Works are, indeed, necessary, according to Luther.

Jon

My bad.

I retract the above and amend to:

Some Christians: Faith alone. Therefore works are not necessary.

 

[FathersKnowBest]

Unfortunately there are far too many Catholics who are sacramentalized but not evangelized.

Somebody’s been reading Scott Hahn.

Everyone else should read Evangelizing Catholics: A Mission Manual for the New Evangelization

 

[JonNC]

My bad.

I retract the above and amend to:

Some Christians: Faith alone. Therefore works are not necessary.

One reason why you’re one of my favorite posters here.



Jon

 

[steido01]

My bad.

I retract the above and amend to:

Some Christians: Faith alone. Therefore works are not necessary.

Thank you.

 

[PRmerger]

One reason why you’re one of my favorite posters here.



Jon

:curtsey:

 

[guanophore]

 I understand that.  In Catholic theology, and in scripture, the two are inseparably entwined.

In order to be “finally” justified, we need to be sanctified. We need that holiness “without which it is impossible to see God.”

This is a very difficult concept to grasp for those who have been contaminated with the heresy of penal substitution.

He forgives us, true, but sin still has power over us.
We need to renew our relationship with Him every day, to receive His Grace, in order to keep ourselves free from sin.

I think I am in agreement with your concept, just not your wording. Sin has no power over us unless we allow it by walking according to the flesh and not the Spirit. When He triumphed over sin, He did so completely. I think what you are saying, though, is that we still struggle against the fallen nature (“old man”) so that we are prone towards sin.

It is true that walking with him in grace daily is what keeps us from sin.

Yeah. That is one of their misreadings of scripture.

And of the Fathers Who Know Best!

It is a case of throwing out the baby with the bathwater. They wanted to get rid of corrupt Bishops, so they jettisoned the structure by which they were instituted.

 

[benhur]

And that is answered first through scripture (the Church, and more specifically as we see in scripture, the magisterium of the Church)

Not just the magisterium but all "little children " in the Body share this unction, per John’s epistle

(the Catholic Church of today is organically the very same Church as the first century Church started by Christ).

Again if it is only magisterium that has this unction then your roots to our organic church is important. But as I state per John the unction goes deeper to every member of the Body and you are back to who is the “us”, including which church is fully resting on the unction. That is an entire new thread, just how is and is not the CC or any Church of today organically like the first church.

 

[PRmerger]

Not just the magisterium but all "little children " in the Body share this unction, per John’s epistle

Really? All?

Even those who profess things which are contrary to your understanding of Scripture?

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Not just the magisterium but all "little children " in the Body share this unction.

I know!

“Heaven is for real” is a Magnum Opus of 21st century theology.

For real, I say. Sam I am, I do not like green eggs and ham.

 

[Tomyris]

One reason why you’re one of my favorite posters here.



Jon

I agree. She is one of my favorite posters as well.

 

[Tomyris]

This is a very difficult concept to grasp for those who have been contaminated with the heresy of penal substitution.

“raises arched eyebrow.” Oh?

It is a case of throwing out the baby with the bathwater. They wanted to get rid of corrupt Bishops, so they jettisoned the structure by which they were instituted.

Let’s see…I may be one of the few who would support the removal of episcopal governance, or at least argue in favor of it. How many members does CAF have? Counting banned people (including my Evil Little Sister!), sock-puppets, people who switch names (probably the Mentally Unstable, I mean, who would go from ‘Truthstalker’ to ‘Tomyris’ anyway?), the inactive and so forth, probably about 30,000, according to Barrett.

That puts it at, um…30,000:1. Fair fight. We haven’t argued about this, and it wasn’t on the List.

Let 'er roll.

Mr. Guanophore, I am surprised at you taking such a bald and non-nuanced position. I find a lack of cause and effect between the stated desire and the stated action: correlation is not causation. They DID want an end to corrupt bishops. They looked at the NT and the early church documents to see what was going on then.

Catholic scholars will agree that in the beginning episcopos (overseer) and presbyter (older man) were interchangeable - one term related to function, the other to description. As time went on, the episcopos became more the lead pastor, the Bishop, to use its descendant term, over his fellow elders, until it was marked as a separate office. As the church grew it solved the organizational problem by having bishops over bishops, and patriarchs over the bishops.

What Presbyterians have done is a return to the earliest model, wherein the pastor is one of a group of fellow-elders, some of whom are full-time and some are not.

We see the election of elders from among the congregation, not imposition from outside, and we see preaching and teaching and leading as their primary duties, with the sacraments secondary, in line with the Reformed understanding of the Word as primary.

Let me point to Justin Martyr in his Apology, where in the description of a church service there is an entire absence of terms such as priest, sacrifice, transubstationary language; instead we have a ‘president’ of the meeting. It is POSSIBLE he is describing a Catholic Mass, but to my mind some of the elements critical to today’s understanding of what the Mass is are simply missing.

Oh. I guess that is on my List.

 

[PRmerger]

I agree. She is one of my favorite posters as well.

:hug1:

 

[randomusername]

The Reformation caused liberalism caused secularism caused abortion. It led to the Church being less corrupt but secularism stems from the Reformation. And secularism has caused lots of problems for the Church. Such as abortion and fall in Church attendance rates.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

What Presbyterians have done is a return to the earliest model, wherein the pastor is one of a group of fellow-elders, some of whom are full-time and some are not.

Noble attempt but missing some critical elements, one of which is the most important: Full Union with the Church established by Christ and His Apostles.

The ties were severed and a new form was instituted. It doesn’t get any more Scriptural than the laying on the hands by those in authority to do so.

Let me point to Justin Martyr in his Apology, where in the description of a church service there is an entire absence of terms such as priest, sacrifice, transubstationary language; instead we have a ‘president’ of the meeting. It is POSSIBLE he is describing a Catholic Mass, but to my mind some of the elements critical to today’s understanding of what the Mass is are simply missing.

Justin Martyr’s 1st Apology

CHAPTER LXVII – WEEKLY WORSHIP OF THE CHRIS- TIANS.

And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things where with we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost.

Together (Intentional pun with humor)

And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place,

The Lord’s Day, Sunday. This is why we worship on Sundays.

and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits;

We have 4 readings at Mass on Sundays (Normally) - OT, Psalms, Epistle, Gospel.

then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things.

Homily.

Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended,

We say the creed and later an Our Father.

bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons.

Communion.

And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need.

Giving (This happens before communion now).

It’s pretty darn consistent considering almost 2,000 years have passed…

Now if we want to get technical on terms and things…

And don’t get me started on the Eucharist Section

 

[Denise1957]

Let me point to Justin Martyr in his Apology, where in the description of a church service there is an entire absence of terms such as priest, sacrifice, transubstationary language; instead we have a ‘president’ of the meeting. It is POSSIBLE he is describing a Catholic Mass, but to my mind some of the elements critical to today’s understanding of what the Mass is are simply missing.

Justin Martyr believed in the Real Presence. Do Presbyterians also believe, then, in the Real Presence, too? That would be a step in the right direction.

Justin Martyr’s view of the Real Presence:

onefold.wordpress.com/2008/02/16/justin-martyr-and-the-real-presence-doctrine/

qmbarque.com/2013/10/03/st-justin-martyr-on-continuity-the-real-presence-and-liturgy/

 

[benhur]

Really? All?

Even those who profess things which are contrary to your understanding of Scripture?

We have discussed the “conditional” aspect of this, to which John also attests or qualifies somewhat.

 

[benhur]

I know!

“Heaven is for real” is a Magnum Opus of 21st century theology.

For real, I say. Sam I am, I do not like green eggs and ham.

Sorry, does not compute nicht verstehn,no comprendo.