Why all the Fuss over the Reformation 2

[Tomyris]

I think the presbyterian model has some strengths that, had it been followed, would have prevented some of the episcopal corruption we have seen.

 

[guanophore]

The reconciliation of Arians with the Catholic-Orthodox church.

I don’t think there was “reconciliation” with them. Arianism was pronounced a heresy, and those who wished to remain in the Church had to accept that decision. Those who abandoned the heresy remained in the Church, and those that did not were never re-united. I am not sure it is the best example of healing the separations that came from the Reformation.

I think the presbyterian model has some strengths that, had it been followed, would have prevented some of the episcopal corruption we have seen.

Yes and the sensus fidelum from which the Popes were very removed at the time.

Savonarola had some good points too.

 

[Tomyris]

I don’t think there was “reconciliation” with them. Arianism was pronounced a heresy, and those who wished to remain in the Church had to accept that decision. Those who abandoned the heresy remained in the Church, and those that did not were never re-united. I am not sure it is the best example of healing the separations that came from the Reformation.

You have a better one? We might consider the reconciliation between the Gentiles and Jewish Christians, settled by council in Acts 15.

 

[guanophore]

You have a better one? We might consider the reconciliation between the Gentiles and Jewish Christians, settled by council in Acts 15.

That council is what set the pattern. The successors of the Apostles met, discussed, prayed and with the Holy Spirit determined how to address the issue. Then an Apostolic letter/ decision was sent. Those who accepted the direction of the Church remained within her, and those who rejected the Apostolic authority were outside of her and continued to practice outside of her. This has been the case with every major heresy.

The Church is not a democracy, it is a theocracy.

 

[PRmerger]

That council is what set the pattern. The successors of the Apostles met, discussed, prayed and with the Holy Spirit determined how to address the issue. Then an Apostolic letter/ decision was sent. Those who accepted the direction of the Church remained within her, and those who rejected the Apostolic authority were outside of her and continued to practice outside of her. This has been the case with every major heresy.

The Church is not a democracy, it is a theocracy.

Indeed.

Which makes it curious that Tomi believes that the Church got it right in this case, when she [the CC] arrested this heresy.

In fact, were it not for the Church, it’s quite possible that Tomi could be espousing the doctrines that Arius professed.

It is the Church to which we can all thank for eliminating the very popular Arian doctrines from being promulgated.

Curious, then, that Tomi would have proclaimed this, earlier:

**Originally posted by Tomyris>>**For Protestants one of the loudest lessons of history is that Catholic leadership simply cannot be trusted. Ever. For anything. Period.

 

[guanophore]

Indeed.

Which makes it curious that Tomi believes that the Church got it right in this case, when she [the CC] arrested this heresy.

In fact, were it not for the Church, it’s quite possible that Tomi could be espousing the doctrines that Arius professed.

It is the Church to which we can all thank for eliminating the very popular Arian doctrines from being promulgated.

Curious, then, that Tomi would have proclaimed this, earlier:

Yeah I have to admit, that was very painful to read.

 

[Tomyris]

Yeah I have to admit, that was very painful to read.

It was not fun to write, either. But it touches on the bishops, again, and their conduct. Every week in the paper here there is an irate letter from an irate Catholic demanding the resignation of the local bishop. In those letters I hear an echo of two things, one being the Reformation, and the second the kind of anger a woman expresses when she discovers hubby had not been who he claimed to be. Deceived, cheated, let down, disappointed, hurt, defrauded, irate. I’ve known ex-Catholics with that sort of anger towards the Church.

I don’t have the erudition of Contarini or the gentleness and knowledge you display. I come from a much rougher place in regard to the Catholic Church than the Lutherans do, who agree to bishops and happily talk of eventual reunification, or at least some here do. Reunification? No.

For me there is an insistence that somehow we are still Christ’s and it is better to stick together and work out the problems and stand against what is outside, namely Islam and secularism. Posting here is like trying to cross a swift-flowing rocky stream in a long skirt. I can’t see the rocks and I never know when one will trip me up. But I think there is a Way because He said He is, and so working towards unity is something He likes, no matter how painful.

In STA’s Summa I.4.7 he quotes Gregory: “from things we know,we may rise to the desire of things unknown.” I know I can trust someone from the things I know about him; if I know that what he says is true about the things I know are true, I am more likely to believe him when he tells me things that I do not know. How can I trust these people with things I do not know when I cannot trust them with the things I do know?

I’ve done quality control. Once we had a standard of taking three samples at random and testing them out of a box of 100. If one failed, we tested three more. If all three failed, the box was bad. If two boxes were bad on a pallet, we assumed the whole pallet was bad, or something like that (it was a long time ago). The vast majority may have been ok but we had a standard we went by. If enough failed, all failed. We could not test all, not even the majority.

And so I see bishops, both I see and hear of many who are STILL displaying some of the corruption that was evident at the time of the Reformation, enough to conclude that what they say must be in line with their behavior, which means unreliable. They say their teaching is separate, that they are the successors of the apostles. That is what they say, which of course I view with suspicion, with all reason.

Are all corrupt? All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. There may be good bishops out there, and of course the news always focuses on the bad acts of some, and I hope you have good bishops. We desperately need bishops who act like the successors to the apostles they claim to be, who model apostolic godliness and take the apostles as their model. I suspect that if the bishops did that, reunification might come. The present pope is moving in the right direction.

 

[Tomyris]

Indeed.

Which makes it curious that Tomi believes that the Church got it right in this case, when she [the CC] arrested this heresy.

In fact, were it not for the Church, it’s quite possible that Tomi could be espousing the doctrines that Arius professed.

It is the Church to which we can all thank for eliminating the very popular Arian doctrines from being promulgated.

Curious, then, that Tomi would have proclaimed this, earlier:

We can thank God. You seem to be giving the church all the glory here. It wasn’t the church getting it right. And the doctrines were being promulgated, by very many bishops.

 

[PRmerger]

We can thank God. You seem to be giving the church all the glory here. It wasn’t the church getting it right. And the doctrines were being promulgated, by very many bishops.

I am no more giving glory to the Church (to the exclusion of God) than you would be* if you tell parents of a beautiful newborn baby, “You guys sure do make some beautiful babies!”

One need not exclude the other.

*giving glory to the parents to the exclusion of God.

 

[Tomyris]

This statement is a denial of the promises that Christ made to His Church and allows that Jesus will permit us to fall into error, thus paving the way for us to pass through the gates of hell.

I think the Reformed look at it the other way round, as an affirmation of His promises that He will always be with us and correct us, even when we err.

I don’t think Catholics believe their theology is perfected: worked out to the nth detail with no further possible development or understanding or reworking.

 

[PRmerger]

I am no more giving glory to the Church (to the exclusion of God) than you would be* if you tell parents of a beautiful newborn baby, “You guys sure do make some beautiful babies!”

One need not exclude the other.

*giving glory to the parents to the exclusion of God.

Incidentally, I do make some beautiful babies.

And I have been told that many a time (by some very good Christian folks), and I never thought, “How dare they disrespect God by telling me I made a beautiful baby! Don’t they know that it’s GOD and ONLY GOD who did that?”.

 

[Tomyris]

Incidentally, I do make some beautiful babies.

And I have been told that many a time (by some very good Christian folks), and I never thought, “How dare they disrespect God by telling me I made a beautiful baby! Don’t they know that it’s GOD and ONLY GOD who did that?”.

Among us when someone says something like that, we typically reply with gratitude “To God alone be the glory.”

 

[benjohnson]

The vast majority may have been ok but we had a standard we went by. If enough failed, all failed. We could not test all, not even the majority.

In the Lutheran world - the congregation elders call (hire) the pastor. You’d think this would be of some benefit, but let me tell you based on experience, that plenty of Lutheran pastors are either horrible, or are too afraid to lose their job to properly tend their sheep.

But, we would also need to remind ourselves that this is nothing new. The church has been suffering from the beginning - as even an apostle turned against Him.

 

[SteveVH]

I think the Reformed look at it the other way round, as an affirmation of His promises that He will always be with us and correct us, even when we err.

And which of the “Reformed” ecclesial communities should we look to for this doctrine which has corrected the error of the Catholic Church? Is it yours? Is it the Lutheran, Methodist, Baptist, Presbyterian, Anglican, Church of Christ, Westboro Baptist, or one of the non-denoms at the mall?

 

[Tomyris]

In the Lutheran world - the congregation elders call (hire) the pastor. You’d think this would be of some benefit, but let me tell you based on experience, that plenty of Lutheran pastors are either horrible, or are too afraid to lose their job to properly tend their sheep.

But, we would also need to remind ourselves that this is nothing new. The church has been suffering from the beginning - as even an apostle turned against Him.

We have some pretty lousy pastors at times too.

We all need to pray for our leadership - in that we can agree.

 

[Tomyris]

And which of the “Reformed” ecclesial communities should we look to for this doctrine which has corrected the error of the Catholic Church? Is it yours? Is it the Lutheran, Methodist, Baptist, Presbyterian, Anglican, Church of Christ, Westboro Baptist, or one of the non-denoms at the mall?

Hmmm. Most of those are not Reformed.

 

[SteveVH]

Hmmm. Most of those are not Reformed.

That’s not an answer. If God corrected the errors of the Catholic Church through the Reformation then please tell me which of the “Reformed” communities has this correct version?

 

[andrewstx]

Hmmm. Most of those are not Reformed.

I doubt that he was not speaking of Reformed in the Calvinist sense. which would still include Baptists, Presbyterians, the United Church of Christ and the Reformed Church in America.

I think he meant the religious bodies that emerged that emerged from the Protestant reformation.

 

[SteveVH]

I doubt that he was not speaking of Reformed in the Calvinist sense. which would still include Baptists, Presbyterians, the United Church of Christ and the Reformed Church in America.

I think he meant the religious bodies that emerged that emerged from the Protestant reformation.

Thank you. I have a feeling Tomi knows exactly what I meant.

 

[PRmerger]

Among us when someone says something like that, we typically reply with gratitude “To God alone be the glory.”

Yes. That is the Church’s response, too.

However, the point is that no one faults the Christian for saying, “It is the Church/the mom who has given birth to a beautiful teaching/baby.”

What the Christian says is true. He does no disrespect to God in offering kudos to the co-creator.

We (Christians) understand that when a mom gives birth to a beautiful baby it is ONLY through the divine spark spoken at the command of the Creator.

And no one ever faults a Christian for giving praise to the mom.

It is only fundamentalists who say, 'How dare you tell the mom that she made a beautiful baby! God and God ALONE made that baby!"