Why all the Fuss over the Reformation 2

[guanophore]

We can thank God. You seem to be giving the church all the glory here. It wasn’t the church getting it right. And the doctrines were being promulgated, by very many bishops.

The Apostles taught that the Church is Holy, and is the means by which God has chosen to reveal Himself to the world. Yes, in giving the Church “all the credit”, we recognize that the Church has Jesus as her Head, and is ensouled by the Holy Spirit. There is no separation between Christ and His Church.

Does PC Study Bible work in Windows 8?
Initial reports indicate that PC Study Bible, Versions 4 and 5, work well on the new operating system. However, if you find you can’t open your program after the install finishes or you have missing icons, then try applying the Compatibility Settings below. These settings are crucial to make PC Study Bible run in Windows 8; if you get an update to your system, it would be good to double check to make sure that these settings are still in place.

Towards the end of this article, you can view the Known Problems of running PC Study Bible in Windows 8.

Compatibility Settings for Windows 8

Close all major programs, MS Word, PC Study Bible etc.

Look for an Icon along the bottom of the screen that looks like 3 manila folders and click it. This will open something called File Explorer.

Note – If there is no such Icon along the bottom bar, then press and hold the Windows Key and then press “E”. (The Windows Key is in the last row of keys on the Keyboard; usually two keys from the left or right of the Space Bar.) Pressing and then releasing these 2 keys together will open File Explorer.

Open Drive C:

Open the folder named PROGRAM FILES or PROGRAM FILES X86 if your system is running a 64 bit

Open the BIBLESOFT folder

Open the folder PC STUDY BIBLE

Open the folder named, PROGRAM

Look for two files named JOSHUA

Ignore the file JOSHUA.DLL

Right Click the JOSHUA file that has the icon

Choose PROPERTIES from the Menu

Choose the Tab named, COMPATIBILITY

Place a Check mark where it says, RUN THIS PROGRAM AS AN ADMINISTRATOR

Then Click the APPLY Button

Then Click OK

Close the open windows until back to the desktop screen

Known Problems - We don’t have a time frame on when these problems will have a fix available.

The Reset to Factory Defaults has not been able to re-register PC Study Bible with your computer.
You may not be able to Save your Bible Reading Plan.

If you should have any further questions,Technical Support can be reached at:
(206) 870-1463 8:00 AM to 4:15 PM PST
Mon, Tues, Thur, Fri
The id number of this entry is 510.

Eph 3:8-10
…Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things; 10** that through the church **the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places.

 

[guanophore]

WCF:

IV. All synods or councils, since the apostles’ times, whether general or particular, may err; and many have erred. Therefore they are not to be made the rule of faith, or practice; but to be used as a help in both.[5]

I think the Reformed look at it the other way round, as an affirmation of His promises that He will always be with us and correct us, even when we err.

I don’t understand how both of these can be true. How can He correct us when we err, if He cannot be trusted to lead the council?

What evidence is there Scripturally to support the notion that the Councils can “err”?

How can a statement like this:

Acts 15:28
28 It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us

Result in a 'error"? If the HS is part of the decision making processd, can the result be anything but infallible?

But if this the Council is not the means by which we are led into “all Truth” and can have an infallible result, what other method is there?

And if it is not a Council, then why do the Christians who have received the Apostolic faith have this as a basic tenent for 2000 years? By what authority does the WCF determine that the opposite is true of what the Church has believed and practiced for two millenia?

 

[guanophore]

Among us when someone says something like that, we typically reply with gratitude “To God alone be the glory.”

I have always had great admiration for the Presbyterian value of giving God all the glory. But that does not exclude the Church, and the individual believer. He wants to reveal his glory *through the Church/I and also through us, His disciples.

2 Cor 4:10-12
so that the life of Jesus may also be manifested in our bodies. 11 For while we live we are always being given up to death for Jesus’ sake, so that the life of Jesus may be manifested in our mortal flesh.

2 Cor 4:5-6
6 For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

God desires that His light shine in us, and through us, to the world.

He created us so that we could manifest His glory, so saying “His alone be the glory” seems like throwing the gift back in His face!*

 

[Tomyris]

I have always had great admiration for the Presbyterian value of giving God all the glory. But that does not exclude the Church, and the individual believer. He wants to reveal his glory through the Church

“When God crowns our merits He will crown nothing else than His own gifts” - Augustine.

God created all things good, and we can praise Him for the beauty, excellence, creativity of His creation. But when we start taking credit for what He has done, or give credit to another, are we not robbing Him of His glory? Without Him we are absolutely nothing and deserve no glory. Nebuchadnezzar was severely rebuked for boasting about what he had done, as if he had done it. We can give thanks for the wondrous way He has made us, that we can bear children, beautiful and amazing creatures, but He furnished us with all that is necessary and oversaw things like the installation of a soul, genes, etc. In many ways we are passive (for a pregnant woman, often ‘passive’ with a link to ‘Passion’ in the sense of suffering is here) yet in the end the work is God’s. That does not diminish us but magnifies Him.

He created us to magnify His glory. Telling people how great we are and downplaying His role in that is a perversion of His purpose. We glorify Him when we point to Him, not when we point to ourselves. We can thank Him, and should, for all the good things He has been pleased to give us in His providence. He wants to reveal His glory to the world through us, but that cannot be done if we just focus on us or on the church. First, last and always the focus is to be on God. Our part in it is infinitisimially small in comparison.

I don’t think you are advocating boasting in ourselves. I hope not.

 

[Tomyris]

That’s not an answer. If God corrected the errors of the Catholic Church through the Reformation then please tell me which of the “Reformed” communities has this correct version?

Thank you for the invitation to break Forum rules by getting me to proselytize. I think it is clear where I am coming from.

Your question of course has to do with how we know what authority to believe, which is what we have been discussing, so I am not sure how your question throws any light on the subject.

 

[Tomyris]

Yes. That is the Church’s response, too.

However, the point is that no one faults the Christian for saying, “It is the Church/the mom who has given birth to a beautiful teaching/baby.”

What the Christian says is true. He does no disrespect to God in offering kudos to the co-creator.

We (Christians) understand that when a mom gives birth to a beautiful baby it is ONLY through the divine spark spoken at the command of the Creator.

And no one ever faults a Christian for giving praise to the mom.

It is only fundamentalists who say, 'How dare you tell the mom that she made a beautiful baby! God and God ALONE made that baby!"

Being a fundamentalist is not intrinsically evil. We should of course rejoice in the beauty of creation, and babies …lost track of the conversation…

 

[Porknpie]

“When God crowns our merits He will crown nothing else than His own gifts” - St. Augustine.

Minor correction above. In this case wiki is accurate.

 

[PRmerger]

Being a fundamentalist is not intrinsically evil.

No. Not intrinsically evil. You are correct here.

But being a fundamentalist is not a good thing. Jesus wasn’t a fundamentalist. So we shouldn’t be either.

Fundamentalists are recusant to reason, and have a tunnel vision which impoverishes their ability to see the big picture of Truth.

Definitely not something we want to be.

 

[guanophore]

 "When God crowns our merits He will crown nothing else than His own gifts" - Augustine.

God created all things good, and we can praise Him for the beauty, excellence, creativity of His creation. But when we start taking credit for what He has done, or give credit to another, are we not robbing Him of His glory?

No, but this is a common misperception.

2 Thess 1:9-12
…the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, 10 when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at in all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed. 11 To this end we always pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his call, and may fulfil every good resolve and work of faith by his power, 12 so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

It is in, with, and through Him that we are to manifest His glory to the world. We are the light and salt for the world. It is IN HIS SAINTS that He desires to be marvelled at. This is why we strive to be worthy of His call (merit) or to deserve that which was given to us.

Without Him we are absolutely nothing and deserve no glory. Nebuchadnezzar was severely rebuked for boasting about what he had done, as if he had done it. We can give thanks for the wondrous way He has made us, that we can bear children, beautiful and amazing creatures, but He furnished us with all that is necessary and oversaw things like the installation of a soul, genes, etc. In many ways we are passive (for a pregnant woman, often ‘passive’ with a link to ‘Passion’ in the sense of suffering is here) yet in the end the work is God’s. That does not diminish us but magnifies Him.

Yes, all we are is a reflection of His gifts so it is fitting to acknowlege that His work IN us has produced the good fruit. When we say “all glory to God”, that does not exclude our partipation in it.

He created us to magnify His glory.  Telling people how great we are and downplaying His role in that is a perversion of His purpose.

Yes, of course, but downplaying our role is also a perversion. He does not transform us against our will - we must participate in the course of sanctification. We can say with Paul

2 Tim 4:7-8
I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that Day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing.

We can also say that He is working in us to will and to do His good pleasure.

Eph 3:20-21

20 Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think, 21 to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, for ever and ever. Amen.

 We glorify Him when we point to Him, not when we point to ourselves.

This is not an either/or proposition. When we are “in Christ” it is no longer we that live, but Christ in us, such that in pointing to oursleves, we glorify Him. I grant you this is a tall order, but we are not exempt from the equation here. We should be able to say with the Apostle:

Phil 3:17-18

17 Keep on imitating me, my brothers. Pay attention to those who follow the right example that we have set for you. 1

We can thank Him, and should, for all the good things He has been pleased to give us in His providence. He wants to reveal His glory to the world through us, but that cannot be done if we just focus on us or on the church. First, last and always the focus is to be on God. Our part in it is infinitisimially small in comparison.

This kind of exclusionary thinking reveals a lack of understanding of the incarnational principle. Jesus had both divine, and human aspects/nature. In the same way, the Church has both divine and numan nature. When He manifests His glory through the Church it is the divine shining through the natural, like the transfiguration.

In the same way, we have the “old man” the sinful human nature together with the divine nature that has been infused into us. When He is glorified in his saints, it is the divine nature shining through the natural.

1 Cor 6:19-20
19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, which you have from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

He means for us to glorify Him in and through our mortal being.

 

[Gaelic_Bard]

Hello guanophore,

Yes, of course, but downplaying our role is also a perversion. He does not transform us against our will - we must participate in the course of sanctification. We can say with Paul

It is also a common misconception that those of us who hold to a more monergistic view of God’s dealing with the salvation of His people is done so that the transformation that is begun in us through regeneration by the Holy Spirit is against our will, or entirely apart from it. This is not the teaching of the bulk of the more Calvinistic Protestant confessions of faith.

What we do confess, in the words of the Baptist Confession of 1689,

“When God converts a sinner, and translates him into a state of grace, he frees him from
his natural bondage to sin, and by grace alone he enables him freely to will and to do that
which is spiritually good. But because of his remaining corruptions he does not only
(or perfectly) will that which is good, but also wills that which is evil.”

 

[PRmerger]

Hello guanophore,

It is also a common misconception that those of us who hold to a more monergistic view of God’s dealing with the salvation of His people is done so that the transformation that is begun in us through regeneration by the Holy Spirit is against our will, or entirely apart from it. This is not the teaching of the bulk of the more Calvinistic Protestant confessions of faith.

What we do confess, in the words of the Baptist Confession of 1689,

“When God converts a sinner, and translates him into a state of grace, he frees him from
his natural bondage to sin, and by grace alone he enables him freely to will and to do that
which is spiritually good. But because of his remaining corruptions he does not only
(or perfectly) will that which is good, but also wills that which is evil.”

As long as the Baptist Confession affirms the cooperation of the human person in our salvation, we say

 

[Gaelic_Bard]

As long as the Baptist Confession affirms the cooperation of the human person in our salvation, we say

It is generally referred to as compatibilism.

The ultimate cause, source, etc. of our salvation is God and God alone. His will is not dependent on human cooperation.

However, what His will wills has an actual impact on His creation and doesn’t exist in abstract theological language. So when He wills the conversion of a sinner, that sinner freely, and of his own volition, repents and turns from sin and freely chooses to obey God (due to his changed heart, spirit, etc.).

 

[PRmerger]

It is generally referred to as compatibilism.

The ultimate cause, source, etc. of our salvation is God and God alone. His will is not dependent on human cooperation.

However, what His will wills has an actual impact on His creation and doesn’t exist in abstract theological language. So when He wills the conversion of a sinner, that sinner freely, and of his own volition, repents and turns from sin and freely chooses to obey God (due to his changed heart, spirit, etc.).

Again, as long as the human person’s cooperation is affirmed, we say

Cornelius seems to be an example of the Catholic understanding of conversion–someone not predestined, not part of the chosen, but who is indeed able to please God before his actual conversion.

 

[Gaelic_Bard]

Cornelius seems to be an example of the Catholic understanding of conversion–someone not predestined, not part of the chosen, but who is indeed able to please God before his actual conversion.

Do you mean a non-Israelite?

 

[PRmerger]

Do you mean a non-Israelite?

I just mean someone who is pleasing to God who has not yet been re-generated.

 

[Gaelic_Bard]

I just mean someone who is pleasing to God who has not yet been re-generated.

Why would you say he wasn’t regenerated?

 

[PRmerger]

Why would you say he wasn’t regenerated?

When do you believe he was regenerated?

 

[Gaelic_Bard]

When do you believe he was regenerated?

The Scripture doesn’t say specifically. We know that he received the Holy Spirit at Peter’s preaching and was baptized. However, he did worship the true God prior to that and was respected by the Jewish community there. I would say he was regenerate in the same way that Old Testament believers were, and then later received the Christian faith.

 

[PRmerger]

The Scripture doesn’t say specifically. We know that he received the Holy Spirit at Peter’s preaching and was baptized. However, he did worship the true God prior to that and was respected by the Jewish community there. I would say he was regenerate in the same way that Old Testament believers were, and then later received the Christian faith.

Wait…

Someone in the NT,* after* the Incarnation, Atonement, Resurrection, can be regenerated “in the same way that OT believers were”?

 

[Gaelic_Bard]

Wait…

Someone in the NT,* after* the Incarnation, Atonement, Resurrection, can be regenerated “in the same way that OT believers were”?

It would require too much speculation. Cornelius had never been presented with the Christian revelation; we are talking a period of a few years after the resurrection, at most, if even that. No doubt Cornelius had been exposed to the God of the Jews for some time. I am sure that he understood the Jews had been expecting a Messiah and he received the gospel gladly. His situation is wholly different than our own.

Unregenerate people don’t worship God truly and serve Him with good works (as Cornelius did).