Why all the Mormon Bashing?

[SkinnyJay]

If it is the definition, then it’s not a stretch to call it the definition. “Christian” is a classification of belief. It is not an imprimatur of salvation or of accuracy. To a non-Christian, claiming to be Christian identifies only that one basic thing; belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ. Everything after that is an add on, and a separation of beliefs within that larger classification.

I am not Muslim. I am not Jewish. I am not Hindu or Budhist or Animist or any other 'ist…"

I am a Christian. Once that is established, then we can start to examine the differences in what I believe Jesus taught vs. what you do. We are both right about the main important thing, and probably a lot of other things, and I believe that I’m right about most things, and where you disagree with me, you are wrong. You believe the same about me.

Of course we believe that; if we didn’t, we’d join another group and then we would believe that about that group. To be otherwise would be hypocrisy indeed.

I understand.

 

[MelanieAnne]

Both of you have points. While it is not weird to see ex-mormons feeling conned and expressing it, these people will of course be louder then those who left with no hard feelings and the popular way of hearing the loudest may in fact not be the most accurate representation of the total population.

However it is still much better to listen to both and come to understand where the people are coming from then just not listen to either; because one may be loud but may also represent a small number or the other may be quiet but they’re ok so what’s the problem anyways.

We all know what happens when one assumes things…

Of course it’s all very subjective, that’s absolutely true. But I have found one thing that, at least in my experience, seems to be exaggerated among Mormons and that is a tendency to personalize any disagreement with their doctrine. You can’t have any sort of reasonable dialog when one of the people takes every critique, no matter how diplomatically presented, as a personal attack.

Not every Mormon does this, but in my experience ~ which of course is not a “statistical” sample ~ a higher percentage of Mormons exhibit this sort of reflexive behavior than persons of other faiths. Assuming (there’s that word!) that everyone who disagrees with Mormon doctrine is an “anti-Mormon” and they “hate” Mormons is intellectually dishonest and, frankly, childish. Any person who wants to be taken seriously in dialogs of this nature, will generally need to put aside the emotion and examine issues more dispassionately.

 

[dianaiad]

Of course it’s all very subjective, that’s absolutely true. But I have found one thing that, at least in my experience, seems to be exaggerated among Mormons and that is a tendency to personalize any disagreement with their doctrine. You can’t have any sort of reasonable dialog when one of the people takes every critique, no matter how diplomatically presented, as a personal attack.

Not every Mormon does this, but in my experience ~ which of course is not a “statistical” sample ~ a higher percentage of Mormons exhibit this sort of reflexive behavior than persons of other faiths. Assuming (there’s that word!) that everyone who disagrees with Mormon doctrine is an “anti-Mormon” and they “hate” Mormons is intellectually dishonest and, frankly, childish. Any person who wants to be taken seriously in dialogs of this nature, will generally need to put aside the emotion and examine issues more dispassionately.

Of course.

You first.

 

[why_me]

Of course it’s all very subjective, that’s absolutely true. But I have found one thing that, at least in my experience, seems to be exaggerated among Mormons and that is a tendency to personalize any disagreement with their doctrine. You can’t have any sort of reasonable dialog when one of the people takes every critique, no matter how diplomatically presented, as a personal attack.

Not every Mormon does this, but in my experience ~ which of course is not a “statistical” sample ~ a higher percentage of Mormons exhibit this sort of reflexive behavior than persons of other faiths. Assuming (there’s that word!) that everyone who disagrees with Mormon doctrine is an “anti-Mormon” and they “hate” Mormons is intellectually dishonest and, frankly, childish. Any person who wants to be taken seriously in dialogs of this nature, will generally need to put aside the emotion and examine issues more dispassionately.

Since mormons and their faith are routinely bashed (posts that attack and don’t show love) I would think that mormons would have a perfect right to feel it to be personal. If someone attacked your faith, would you not take it personal? In terms of a diplomatically presented critique, this kind of post is usually drowned by the less diplomatic critiques.

No one would claim that if a person disagrees with the mormon faith hates mormons or mormonism however, the tone of the message would give a clue into the heart of the catholic posting.

Now of course when we have a thread that claims mormonism to be obviously false, we can see that such a thread would ellicit a certain tone from the posters. Why? Because catholic members of the forum are stating that a certain faith which others belong is false. Which of course, would mean that the mormons would need to come to the thread and defend their faith.

Of course, as a catholic you and the other catholics posters in the mormon threads can claim innocence in all this. But catholics who do not take part in these type of threads notice the unchristian nature of the catholic posters. And in this case, it gives me hope that catholics do have compassion in them.

At least the catholics that I know and are with do have compassion.

 

[Religio71]

Since mormons and their faith are routinely bashed (posts that attack and don’t show love) I would think that mormons would have a perfect right to feel it to be personal. If someone attacked your faith, would you not take it personal? In terms of a diplomatically presented critique, this kind of post is usually drowned by the less diplomatic critiques.

No one would claim that if a person disagrees with the mormon faith hates mormons or mormonism however, the tone of the message would give a clue into the heart of the catholic posting.

Now of course when we have a thread that claims mormonism to be obviously false, we can see that such a thread would ellicit a certain tone from the posters. Why? Because catholic members of the forum are stating that a certain faith which others belong is false. Which of course, would mean that the mormons would need to come to the thread and defend their faith.

Of course, as a catholic you and the other catholics posters in the mormon threads can claim innocence in all this. But catholics who do not take part in these type of threads notice the unchristian nature of the catholic posters. And in this case, it gives me hope that catholics do have compassion in them.

At least the catholics that I know and are with do have compassion.

Oh LOL why me, the fact of the matter is that as Catholics, who actually believe the dogma that the Church has the fullness of Truth and no other religion does, Mormonism and all other Christian churches are based in some sort of falsehood, with some having more of that than others.

And yes, the MORMONS should come to the threads and defend their Faith, as anyone should. You are not a Mormon (supposedly), so it’s still a mystery why you do not defend the dogmas of the Catholic Church, instead of talking about love and hugs, which are found in all religions, and thus are not unique. What is unique is where that love comes from, and the context of it.

Also, if you want to see what it’s really like to demonize religions or “bash” (your favorite word) a religion, look below:

christiandiscussionforums.org/v/forumdisplay.php?f=15
christiandiscussionforums.org/v/forumdisplay.php?f=29

You should participate in the Catholic forum, come defend the Faith. You claim it doesn’t need defending on this forum, so I invite you to come and defend it in a place where it needs to be defended.

 

[why_me]

Also, if you want to see what it’s really like to demonize religions or “bash” (your favorite word) a religion, look below:

christiandiscussionforums.org/v/forumdisplay.php?f=15
christiandiscussionforums.org/v/forumdisplay.php?f=29

You should participate in the Catholic forum, come defend the Faith. You claim it doesn’t need defending on this forum, so I invite you to come and defend it in a place where it needs to be defended.

I just may do that. I was looking for a forum for just such a purpose. Are you on those forums? Now if I do defend the catholic faith it will be with respect, dignity and love for those who are bashing it. I will not go to the gutter but I will use the spirit of the two Thereses’.

 

[zerinus]

I’m not a Mormon, never was, and don’t think I know any either.

Having said that though, I’m repulsed by Protestant and Catholic attacks on The Latter Day Saints. These are people, Mormons, who:

1. Are more pro life than some “catholics”
2. Are even against birth control (I think…all I know is that they usually have big familes!
3. Are against same-sex marriage. Strongly
4. Believe strongly in Chastity (and I think studies show that teen Mormons lead the way in that one)
5. Are on the right side in the culture war on virutally every issue.
6. Seem like wonderful people who even have a family game night and focus strongly on being anti-divorce

Yes, in this increasibly secular society, let’s attack The Church of Latter Day Saints.

I KNOW it’s not just Catholics who bash them.

But let’s get a grip people.

I frankly don’t care about peoples beliefs. I care deeply about there actions. Let’s unite with the mormons on issues we care about and stop the fighting!

Thank you for your valuable (name removed by moderator)ut. The anti-Mormon mentality has a complicated profile, and there are many factors that combine to shape it. Plain old fashioned jealousy is one of them. They are jealous of its success; jealous of the strength of its restorationist theological position; jealous of its open canon of scripture, and the principle of continuing revelation—which they cannot replicate. Another underlying cause is that there are many people who actually know (or at least have good reason to suspect) that it is true; and they are faced with the choice of either accepting it or opposing it. A third option doesn’t exist for such people. And they choose the second option because they are more inclined to do evil than good. Another group are former Mormons who have apostatized from it; and then they turn against it and oppose it. That is typical apostate behavior. Many Catholics who apostatize and join the various Protestant groups behave in the same way towards Catholicism.

I personally never “complain” about anti-Mormonism, and I think it is a mistake to do so. It is something that should either be confronted or ignored, but not “complained” about, or against. Complaining to anti-Mormons for being anti-Mormon is like complaining to the devil for being mean! Well he is supposed to be mean. That is his job. If the devil wasn’t mean, there would be no purpose to his existence. Anti-Mormons are like that. You either confront them or ignore them; but it makes no sense to complain about them, against them, or to them. To do so would make them think they are achieving their purpose, which they are not.

 

[CarolinNC]

It is very offensive, as an ex-Mormon, to be told that I am barred from making any statement about Mormonism because, as an ex-Mormon, my (name removed by moderator)ut is tainted by hatred for Mormons. This is not true, I have much love and respect for the people of the Mormon faith, I disagree with their doctrine and feel that it is a fabrication and forgery of the true teachings of Christ.

I have always tried to word my replies to questions about Mormonism in a respectful manner. I do not lie and I do not have a faulty memory, I feel that I have every right to warn against the false doctrines and teachings of mormonism, just as I would warn someone about the approaching train that is about to run them over.

I have never bashed a single Mormon.

 

[zerinus]

It is very offensive, as an ex-Mormon, to be told that I am barred from making any statement about Mormonism because, as an ex-Mormon, my (name removed by moderator)ut is tainted by hatred for Mormons.

Being an “ex-Mormon” does not you an anti-Mormon make.

I do not lie and I do not have a faulty memory, I feel that I have every right to warn against the false doctrines and teachings of mormonism, just as I would warn someone about the approaching train that is about to run them over.

That is typical anti-Mormon behavior. There are many former Catholics who have become Mormons, and they disagree with various aspects of Catholic theology, but they don’t think that they have to “warn people about the false doctrines of Catholicism”. There are some former Catholics turned Protestants who do, however. You are acting like them.

I have never bashed a single Mormon.

You just did. When you bash Mormonism you bash Mormons. If I bashed Catholicism I would be bashing Catholics. Everybody loves their own religion. You can disagree with Mormon doctrine without bashing Mormonism. Those are two different things.

What do you mean by “I do not lie and I do not have a faulty memory”? I can see a lot of bitterness and resentment coming through that already. That means that you have an axe to grind. You are not just disagreeing with Mormonism. That is what anti-Mormonism is made of.

 

[Religio71]

I just may do that. I was looking for a forum for just such a purpose. Are you on those forums? Now if I do defend the catholic faith it will be with respect, dignity and love for those who are bashing it. I will not go to the gutter but I will use the spirit of the two Thereses’.

Yes, I am on that forum. I hope to see you there!

 

[SkinnyJay]

Being an “ex-Mormon” does not you an anti-Mormon make.

That is typical anti-Mormon behavior. There are many former Catholics who have become Mormons, and they disagree with various aspects of Catholic theology, but they don’t think that they have to “warn people about the false doctrines of Catholicism”. There are some former Catholics turned Protestants who do, however. You are acting like them.

This is simply not true. I can think of several people off the top of my head who displayed this mentality to me.

You just did. When you bash Mormonism you bash Mormons. If I bashed Catholicism I would be bashing Catholics. Everybody loves their own religion. You can disagree with Mormon doctrine without bashing Mormonism. Those are two different things.

What do you mean by “I do not lie and I do not have a faulty memory”? I can see a lot of bitterness and resentment coming through that already. That means that you have an axe to grind. You are not just disagreeing with Mormonism. That is what anti-Mormonism is made of.

What is the difference between a bash and a disagreement? What are the criteria and are they universal? Who gets to decide which criteria applies? You say an ex-mormon isn’t necessarily an anti-mormon. Apparently it takes more then just disagreeing with Mormonism to become anti, and your decision of labeling Caroline an anti is motivated by your perceived “axe to grind”? When someone says “Hey, when I talk about my experiences as a Mormon I am being completely honest with myself and with you and I won’t make stuff up” you see it as bitterness and resentment?

A forum is not the greatest medium for distinguishing these kinds of matters. There is no physical bodily cues, no tone, no voice inflection. Like MelanieAnne said, there needs to be a certain amount of dispassionate separation, or you’ll drown.

 

[CarolinNC]

Zerinus,

I don’t know how to say this but strait out, I have been accused of those offenses, so that was the only reason I said that. It wasn’t because I have an “axe to grind”.

Your right that my experiences in Mormonism were not especially happy ones when my family left, but I can not say that the whole experience with Mormonism was bad. I have respect and love for the people of the Mormon faith.

I limit my replies to the questions about Mormonism on this sub forum because I feel that my opinion is just as valid as any one’s and relevant, especially, because I am an ex-Mormon. I feel that I need to respond to the fallacies of doctrine as I see them and relate any conflicts and differences in what I was taught as a Mormon.

I am not now attacking nor do I ever intend to attack any one on this forum.

 

[xixxvmcm85]

It is very offensive, as an ex-Mormon, to be told that I am barred from making any statement about Mormonism because, as an ex-Mormon, my (name removed by moderator)ut is tainted by hatred for Mormons. This is not true, I have much love and respect for the people of the Mormon faith, I disagree with their doctrine and feel that it is a fabrication and forgery of the true teachings of Christ.

I have always tried to word my replies to questions about Mormonism in a respectful manner. I do not lie and I do not have a faulty memory, I feel that I have every right to warn against the false doctrines and teachings of mormonism, just as I would warn someone about the approaching train that is about to run them over.

I have never bashed a single Mormon.

A thousand amens sister! As I stated in my first post in this thread, piggybacking on Dianaiad’s post, it’s quite annoying having to step on eggshells for the likes of Zerinus who has trouble understanding the boundary between an opinion and the person who espouses it.

Being an “ex-Mormon” does not you an anti-Mormon make.

That is typical anti-Mormon behavior. There are many former Catholics who have become Mormons, and they disagree with various aspects of Catholic theology, but they don’t think that they have to “warn people about the false doctrines of Catholicism”. There are some former Catholics turned Protestants who do, however. You are acting like them.

Oh this is becoming reminiscent of the “What makes an anti-Mormon” thread where you were the only one insisting that ill feelings for Mormonism (not Mormon people) is indicative of being anti-Mormon.

I’ve grown tired of dealing with your nonsense Z, and I must say you are a very tenacious troll here on CAF. If it helps feed your persecution complex, then by all means call me an anti-Mormon. Quite frankly my dear, I don’t give a damn.

You just did. When you bash Mormonism you bash Mormons. If I bashed Catholicism I would be bashing Catholics. Everybody loves their own religion. You can disagree with Mormon doctrine without bashing Mormonism. Those are two different things.

Bull bull bull bull bull. Why is it so impossible for you to understand that one might have strong feelings about a particular opinion, belief, teaching, philosophy, etc. yet they are mature enough to divorce what they feel for the ideology from what they feel for the practitioners of the ideology?

Real Anti-Mormons are the perpetrators of Hans Mill, and Joseph Smith’s assassins. These people genuinely hated Mormon people. I haven’t murdered any of my Mormon family members, I haven’t conspired with anyone to have them arrested or driven from their homes. I don’t resent my parents for their Mormonism. I love my family, and I’d be the first to stand up for them if it ever came to a real anti-Mormon trying to strip them of their right to practice or speak.

That doesn’t mean I’ve implicitly agreed with my family’s beliefs nor does it mean I’ve relinquished my right to say what it is I believe. Unlike the bitter ex-Mormons I don’t go into LDS circles looking for trouble, but you’re extremely naive if you expect me to just keep quiet if someone else raises the topic in my presence and asks for my opinion and subsequently says that I’m just an anti-Mormon for daring to express my opinion in the correct context.

You’re on an apologetics site Z. If you cannot take the heat, stay out of the kitchen. This isn’t Temple Square and we aren’t picketing the General Conference.

What do you mean by “I do not lie and I do not have a faulty memory”? I can see a lot of bitterness and resentment coming through that already. That means that you have an axe to grind. You are not just disagreeing with Mormonism. That is what anti-Mormonism is made of.

Thank you Dr. Z. It’s so nice to have a resident shrink here to tell us all what we really think and feel.

 

[zerinus]

Your right that my experiences in Mormonism were not especially happy ones when my family left, but I can not say that the whole experience with Mormonism was bad. I have respect and love for the people of the Mormon faith.

Thank you. I am sorry if you have had an unhappy experience with Mormonism; but whatever that was, I am convinced that it was not the fault of the Church itself, but due to whatever special circumstances you were placed in at that time. The Church itself is not geared towards giving anyone an unhappy experience.

I limit my replies to the questions about Mormonism on this sub forum because I feel that my opinion is just as valid as any one’s and relevant, especially, because I am an ex-Mormon. I feel that I need to respond to the fallacies of doctrine as I see them and relate any conflicts and differences in what I was taught as a Mormon.

No one objects to your doing that. That gives us the opportunity to discuss and explain each other’s beliefs, and where possible to point to inconsistencies in our reasoning. You become an anti-Mormon when you start calling Joseph Smith a “conman,” and Mormonism a “cult,” etc.

I am not now attacking nor do I ever intend to attack any one on this forum.

You don’t have to attack anyone in particular to be an anti-Mormon.

 

[CarolinNC]

Thank you Mr. Z, I am not anti-Mormon then, because I have never said either of those things, on this forum or any other.

God Bless.

 

[zerinus]

Thank you Mr. Z, I am not anti-Mormon then, because I have never said either of those things, on this forum or any other.

God Bless.

Good!

Now that we have got this far, perhaps you can start telling us what it is that you object to or disagree with in Mormonism.

 

[Rascalking]

I trust that you’re equally interested in seeing the Mormons on the forum that routinely bash Catholics stop doing so, right?

Actually, I am interested in that and I wish that would stop as well! But I don’t think you can justify a wrong by pointing and saying, “They’re calling me names! So I’m going to do the same!”

Look, I didn’t mean to get people angry (if I did, I apologize) my intention was, on a section for non-catholic religions, to just see if we could stop bickering towards each other and get some very, very important social things done.

God Bless all of you, Mormon, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish…whatever you are or might be!

PS-And to all you athiests out there, a special God Bless to you too!

 

[RoryMcKenzie56]

Actually, I am interested in that and I wish that would stop as well! But I don’t think you can justify a wrong by pointing and saying, “They’re calling me names! So I’m going to do the same!”

Look, I didn’t mean to get people angry (if I did, I apologize) my intention was, on a section for non-catholic religions, to just see if we could stop bickering towards each other and get some very, very important social things done.

God Bless all of you, Mormon, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish…whatever you are or might be!

PS-And to all you athiests out there, a special God Bless to you too!

Hi Rascalking.

I’ll go on record as agreeing with your original post. There is respectful disagreement and then there is what you call bashing. Catholics are not obligated to express disdain even if we feel it. It is tactless, distasteful, and imprudent to express our disdain of their beliefs to those who we would try to persuade. Not everything has to be said. As a physician measures medicine dosage, we who would minister to those who have contracted spiritual ailments must measure our dosage of truth to suit the illness.

Probably for the sake of those who were not Pharisees, Jesus denounced the Pharisees loudly and publicly. I don’t think He was trying to persude the Pharisees at that point. Ordinarily, He lovingly drew sinners to Himself without berating their beliefs and practices. I don’t care that they disdain us. They don’t know what they are doing. They are deluded, not us. We will be judged much more harshly than them if we carelessly offend those outside the Catholic faith. Apart from a keen sense of God’s direction in the matter, we should not respond in kind.

Rory

 

[Synneve]

For the record: I’m a Mormon who doesn’t do Catholic-bashing and who speaks out against it when s/he sees it.

I think it’s comparatively rare these days. I seldom if ever hear anything anti-Catholic in our classes, let alone in our worship services. I haven’t heard such things for many, many years, if, indeed, I ever heard them at all.

It should be noted that Mormon/Catholic relations in Utah are very good, and have been very good for generations, back into the earliest times of white settlement in the territory.

 

[tundramom]

Well, you are begging a question here. A rather large one.

You see, those ex-Mormons who have NOT had bad experiences, but have simply moved on, don’t post in places like this one and bash their former faith and the members of it. They simply get on with their new lives and faiths.

I don’t agree. I know a lot of us who are former Mormons who have found a new Faith who simply are compelled to share what they have experienced. Then they’re hit with the “you are lying” from Mormons on boards such as these and it just doesn’t gel with their own experience. I left Mormonism of my own free will and happily. I was elated to let my family know what had happened. It turned badly, quickly.

So what you have here, with a large percentage of the ex-Mormons posting here, is a self selected (and thus hugely biased) sample–a sample that no statistician who likes his job would dare use in any study.

I know a few ex-Mormons who would disagree that this is a hugely biased sample. Most of us who leave encounter a grieving process much like when we lose a loved one. It is similiar in experience to a divorce with all those icky feelings.

Think about it for a moment; do you really think that Catholicism is fairly represented and described by those ex-Catholics who post on alt.religion.christian.baptist or CARM? You know the ones…the ones who had rough experiences with the nuns or the local priest, or whose family has cast them out, or whose friends have abandoned them?

How about the ones who, by telling about their horrific experiences as a Catholic, and their trials and tribulations during their conversion out of Catholicism, get such sympathy and back pats from their new associates–do you think that they accurately describe Catholic life and beliefs?

If that was their experience, who am I to call them a liar?

What makes you think that the ex-Mormons would be any more accurate about our faith than those ex-Catholics are about yours?

my own experience is very very close to the ones posted by other ex-Mormons here on this board.

When a Catholic converts to Mormonism, he or she will be told in no uncertain terms NOT to bash his or her former faith. No stories in Fast and Testimony meeting about the weird beliefs he left. No criticism of the faith left behind. No bashing the relatives who have thrown him out of the house (and that happens a lot.) No “Maze of Catholicism” books. No “The snake handlers” pamphlets. No comparisons between Mormonism and, say, Lutheranism or the Baptists published on fuzzy paper in black and red ink. It just doesn’t happen.

…and that difference between the CoJCoLDS and almost every other church I’ve seen is one of the things that keeps me Mormon.

Of course it doesn’t happen… not in church settings… but then again the same could be said about Mass. That would be an inappropriate place for any of us to talk about our former faiths while we are celebrating our new one. But don’t try to tell me that when you are all together you don’t discuss those things. Don’t try to tell me that in your own conversations that you don’t compare and roll eyes about the faiths you left. I have been there, heard that. It happens all the time. Just not at Fast and Testimony meetings.

Just like it doesn’t happen at Mass.

in Christ
Steph