Why all the Mormon Bashing?

[josie_L]

Ok, let us, just for the sake of argument, concede that simply saying that the other guy is wrong is an insult to that other guy; and it’s wrong all the time.

It is an insult for Mormons to claim that there was an apostasy which required a restoration of the priesthood and truths of the gospel that had fallen away. By that same token, it is equally wrong for a Catholic to claim that Mormons are so different from Catholics that they are not, in fact, even Christians.

let’s call those claims a wash, shall we? If the one statement is offensive, so is the other.

Now let us see which group continues the attack methods to the next level.

(looking around this forum and others…) hmmmn… On this page, right now, I see the following books being advertised:

**Answering Jehovah’s Witnesses
Jason Evert

Islam: A Catholic Perspective
Catholic Answers

When Mormons Call
Isaiah Bennett**

I dare you go to to any LDS discussion forum (sponsored by the CoJCoLDS or any Mormon) or an LDS bookstore and find anything even remotely similar. Good luck–because there simply aren’t any.

Indeed, the only ‘insults’ you can find from LDS sources all involve criticisms of DOCTRINE (trinity) and disagreement with doctrine, not any specific belief system.

It’s mote and beam time, guys. Thoush for some, it’s more like Sequoia and toothpick.

Have you read those books you posted that you should assume that they are not just criticisms of DOCTRINES set by these Churches?

p.s. It’s quite easy to say that Mormonism is not attacking any specific belief system because the truth of the matter is, it attacks all of Christianity when it criticizes and considers false the Trinity.

 

[dianaiad]

First of all, the books you cited are exactly “criticisms of DOCTRINE” - Mormon DOCTRINE…

Is trinitarianism unique to Catholicism? Was Catholicism specifically mentioned in any of those quotes referencing trintiarianism? Don’t you really see the flippin’ DIFFERENCE, here?

Secondly, the LDS don’t need to write such books as “When Catholics Call”, because Catholics are not forever knocking on your door to tell you your beliefs are an abomination and that you are corrupt.

Well, perhaps not that title. How about 'Inside Catholicism?" or “The Maze of Catholicism?” or "Apologetics 101, where half of the book is dedicated, not to the further education of Mormonism, but of how to argue with Catholics?

We don’t write those, either, y’know.

Those books are self-defense against the Mormons who consistently lie about what we believe and try to deceive the less-than-well-informed.

That’s not true, Paul. They don’t defend your beliefs against our claims about what you believe. Not one of them does that. There is no chapter that says “Mormons claim that we believe this or that, but we really believe…” They are all “Mormons believe this, and it’s not true because…”

Now it is true that you will find books in the Deseret book store that do exactly that; a book all about, say, “The Godmakers,” where you will find chapters like “Decker claims this, and it’s incorrect. We actually believe and do that.”

You will not find a book, published or approved by the CoJCoLDS, that specifically addresses another belief system with the goal of teaching people how to prove it wrong.

You have to stretch beyond the realms of logic considerably to find something to be incensed about from us; (c’mon, a conference talk, two or three quotes from people writing decades ago…you would be hard put to find enough ‘insults’ from us to fill up one column of a page.) when all I have to do is look at the page I"m reading right this minute to find such blatant examples as:

When Mormons Call
Isaiah Bennett

The Bible and the Qu’ran
Father Jacques Jomier

Inside Mormonism: What Mormons Really Believe
Isaiah Bennett ,

But I’ll tell you what: you go to an LDS forum. You go to a Deseret book store. You go to any LDS website, and if you can find a single volume, supported by the church or published by church associated publishers, or even NOT CONDEMNED by the church, that specifically addresses the beliefs of any other faith for the purpose of showing how wrong it is, I’ll shut up.

The only exception is: publications that are direct responses to specific works attacking Mormonism don’t count.

What do we do instead? We publish stuff like “How wide the divide?” a book where a Mormon and an Evangelical co-write a book, and they both write chapters, not attacking each other, but explaining their own views on Christian issues. This is the form followed by books like “Bridging the divide,” 'Mormonism in Dialogue with Contemporary Christian theologies," “Claiming Christ: A Mormon-Evangelical Debate.”

 

[dianaiad]

Have you read those books you posted that you should assume that they are not just criticisms of DOCTRINES set by these Churches?

p.s. It’s quite easy to say that Mormonism is not attacking any specific belief system because the truth of the matter is, it attacks all of Christianity when it criticizes and considers false the Trinity.

That’s begging a rather large question, josie.

After all, not all Christians are trinitarians.

but yes, I’ve read “Inside mormonism” and “when Mormons come to call.” They are books that specifically advise people about how to argue with Mormons, and specifically address Mormon beliefs…and misrepresent many of those beliefs, if they don’t get them just plain wrong.

Now I don’t think that THESE two books sink to the level of, say, 'The Godmakers," but Bennett does do some things that make these books slide out of the ‘critic’ camp and into the ‘anti-’ camp rather completely.

For instance, you will never, EVER, see a Mormon write this:

After having studied beforehand a particular topic in this book, stay with it. Don’t let the missionaries give a quick brush-off and change the subject. Remember, they learned in their training course to “build” on each item they present. To deflect them from the pre-arranged flow could unsettle and confuse them. That’s all right. They need to be shaken up and encouraged to think for themselves. (WMC, p. 16)

an instruction about how to stop missionaries from presenting their beliefs. That’s not a critique of Mormon doctrine by any stretch of the imagination.

Ah, well. (shrug) I don’t know why I comment on this sort of stuff. Why y’all can’t see the harm in, and the wrong of, the double standard being exhibited by those who take grave offense at a comment at a conference talk, but think that stuff like THIS is just ducky, I honestly do not know.

 

[why_me]

Ah, well. (shrug) I don’t know why I comment on this sort of stuff. Why y’all can’t see the harm in, and the wrong of, the double standard being exhibited by those who take grave offense at a comment at a conference talk, but think that stuff like THIS is just ducky, I honestly do not know.

I am having my doubts that these guys are catholic. I just can’t see a catholic posting these kinds of posts and then go for communion, say the rosary, the divine chaplet etc. I just can’t see it. I am getting this feeling that these guys are not catholic at all but people who pose as catholics to give catholics a bad name. I would hope that catholics who receive the communion would have peace of heart and love of god and humanity in their soul.

 

[why_me]

Saint Patrick’s is nice, but it’s too much of a tourist fiasco. I’ll look into Old St Patrick’s, I’m looking for a parish with a decent amount of young people.

Let me know what you think of it. Saint Joseph’s in the Village on 6th avenue would have young people since NYU closed its catholic chapel…unless they reopened it. Dorothy Day spent some time at Saint Joseph’s when she lived in the village. It is a nice church too and nicely located.

And don’t forget to say a prayer for me when you see the picture of mother theresa in Old Saint Pat’s.

 

[ricko]

I am having my doubts that these guys are catholic. I just can’t see a catholic posting these kinds of posts and then go for communion, say the rosary, the divine chaplet etc. I just can’t see it. I am getting this feeling that these guys are not catholic at all but people who pose as catholics to give catholics a bad name. I would hope that catholics who receive the communion would have peace of heart and love of god and humanity in their soul.

Why me, you sly ole devil you. You’re just too smart for us to put anything over you. How did you find out we weren’t Catholics?

 

[Religio71]

why me, you sly ole devil you. You’re just too smart for us to put anything over you. How did you find out we weren’t catholics?

hahaha.

 

[josie_L]

That’s begging a rather large question, josie.

After all, not all Christians are trinitarians.

but yes, I’ve read “Inside mormonism” and “when Mormons come to call.” They are books that specifically advise people about how to argue with Mormons, and specifically address Mormon beliefs…and misrepresent many of those beliefs, if they don’t get them just plain wrong.

Now I don’t think that THESE two books sink to the level of, say, 'The Godmakers," but Bennett does do some things that make these books slide out of the ‘critic’ camp and into the ‘anti-’ camp rather completely.

For instance, you will never, EVER, see a Mormon write this:

After having studied beforehand a particular topic in this book, stay with it. Don’t let the missionaries give a quick brush-off and change the subject. Remember, they learned in their training course to “build” on each item they present. To deflect them from the pre-arranged flow could unsettle and confuse them. That’s all right. They need to be shaken up and encouraged to think for themselves. (WMC, p. 16)

**an instruction about how to stop missionaries from presenting their beliefs. That’s not a critique of Mormon doctrine by any stretch of the imagination. **

Ah, well. (shrug) I don’t know why I comment on this sort of stuff. Why y’all can’t see the harm in, and the wrong of, the double standard being exhibited by those who take grave offense at a comment at a conference talk, but think that stuff like THIS is just ducky, I honestly do not know.

But the basis for that instruction is disagreement with Mormon theology/doctrines, remember these are Mormons who are going door to door representing their theology to those who are not Mormom, expressing the belief that they are right and those who they are missionizing are wrong. I believe it is within the bounds of someone like Evert to instruct Catholics on how to argue Mormons who try to convert them, and so it should not be perceived as insulting. The Catholic Church nor it’s theologians/apologists have ever demeaned other religions apart from disagreeing with their doctrines.

p.s. For the most part and before the 19th century all of Christianity held to the Trinity, so Mormons and JWs are the exception not the rule.

 

[josie_L]

I am having my doubts that these guys are catholic. I just can’t see a catholic posting these kinds of posts and then go for communion, say the rosary, the divine chaplet etc. I just can’t see it. I am getting this feeling that these guys are not catholic at all but people who pose as catholics to give catholics a bad name. I would hope that catholics who receive the communion would have peace of heart and love of god and humanity in their soul.

I was simply pointing out the fallicious logic being used by dianad, that is all, but for you to question my Catholicity because I had the audacity to notice this is a little melodramatic. God bless.

 

[dianaiad]

But the basis for that instruction is disagreement with Mormon theology/doctrines, remember these are Mormons who are going door to door representing their theology to those who are not Mormom, expressing the belief that they are right and those who they are missionizing are wrong. I believe it is within the bounds of someone like Evert to instruct Catholics on how to argue Mormons who try to convert them, and so it should not be perceived as insulting.

If that’s so, you have no reason to call anything we say about the trinity or the apostasy as insulting. At least we are not teaching people how to keep Catholics from even presenting their arguments about it.

The Catholic Church nor it’s theologians/apologists have ever demeaned other religions apart from disagreeing with their doctrines.

Really? Your belief system has decided that we don’t even share Christianity with you.

What WOULD you call that instruction, about allowing young missionaries into your home, not to have a civil dialogue and express your own beliefs or to listen to their presentation of theirs? It’s not 'disagreement" with doctrine. It’s instruction on how to stop them from explaining their doctrine, and thus an attempt to keep Catholics from learning about it.

I think it is dishonorable, and as long as your belief system supports and publishes such things, I don’t think that you have the right to get insulted by comments from a group that does NOT engage in such things.

Like, for instance…us.

****p.s. For the most part and before the 19th century all of Christianity held to the Trinity, so Mormons and JWs are the exception not the rule.

That’s not, quite, accurate. There have always been modalists and other ‘ists’ among Christian thought. However, even if your claim was true, it is irrelevant; there are still many non-Trinitarian Christians.

 

[dianaiad]

I was simply pointing out the fallicious logic being used by dianad, that is all, but for you to question my Catholicity because I had the audacity to notice this is a little melodramatic. God bless.

Josie, I have no reason to believe that you are not Catholic…

But I would like to point out that the fallacious logic used here was not mine.

 

[josie_L]

If that’s so, you have no reason to call anything we say about the trinity or the apostasy as insulting. At least we are not teaching people how to keep Catholics from even presenting their arguments about it.

I was trying to show you how illogical it was to state that Mormonism doesn’t attack a specific belief system while failing to see how criticizing the trinity and relegating all other Christian theologies as false isn’t an attack on Christianity as we know it. And do you think people will take Christianity seriously when even the most basic doctrines are denied by people who call themselves Christians?

Really? Your belief system has decided that we don’t even share Christianity with you.

Can you understand why they wouldn’t?

What WOULD you call that instruction, about allowing young missionaries into your home, not to have a civil dialogue and express your own beliefs or to listen to their presentation of theirs? It’s not 'disagreement" with doctrine. It’s instruction on how to stop them from explaining their doctrine, and thus an attempt to keep Catholics from learning about it.

People who are buying this book already disagree with Mormon doctrine.

I think it is dishonorable, and as long as your belief system supports and publishes such things, I don’t think that you have the right to get insulted by comments from a group that does NOT engage in such things.

That is your opinion.

That’s not, quite, accurate. There have always been modalists and other ‘ists’ among Christian thought. However, even if your claim was true, it is irrelevant; there are still many non-Trinitarian Christians.

Please give me a list of these many (present) non-trinitarian Christians?

 

[why_me]

But I would like to point out that the fallacious logic used here was not mine.

I wasn’t referring to Josie but to the others who seem not to have a good word to say about any faith but their own. I have never met such closed-minded catholics except on this forum. Now of course I know since people do not use their own names, the aggression can be extreme. But my claim still stands: I do not know how these so-called catholic posters can receive communion with peace when they hold such views and post such things as have been posted on the mormon threads.

 

[Mom_of_5]

I think that it is great that your husband is now a catholic, especially if he thinks that is where he should be. However, how would you answer the question of the original poster about why all the mormon bashing? Do you think that it is okay to bash the mormon church and mormons as many catholics have done on the mormon threads? Is that what it means to be a devout catholic? Are you ashamed that some catholics are bashing mormons on the threads? Do they have the spirit of god with them when they do?

To be honest, if catholics were so intolerant like some of the catholics on the mormon threads I would want nothing to do with the catholic church since catholicism would breed hatred. But luckily that is not the case.

And I need to remind you that the catholic church does not and did not look too kindly on its protestant offshoots. Go back 100 years and you will see problems between the catholic faith and its protestant offshoots. Ecumenicalism was not practiced at all. And at the time of the Reformation, many christians lost their lives on both sides of the spectrum.

How would a catholic describe the Lutheran Church?

O.K…I don’t think anyone should bash anyone or his/her religion. What I said was that LDS DO bash Catholics and protestants. The LDS built their church on bashing these christian faiths. We all need to respect one another. I have good LDS friends and relatives, by marriage. We respect each other, even though we know that our beliefs are miles apart.

I, A Catholic, would describe the Lutheran Church as christian sect ,close in many ways to the church it broke away from. Martin Luther did not realize how his work would affect the world religions, at his death, he wished he had never left the CC, but stayed in and worked for reform. Even his church has taken turns for the worse, gone in directions he never dreamed of. Now, if I ever left the CC, I would probably invetigate Lutheranism more closely. (I have no intention of that.) We all seem to forget that each religion in this world is made up of human beings and therefore, subject to err, EVEN our beloved CC.

Love and prayers,

Mom of 5

 

[why_me]

Why me, you sly ole devil you. You’re just too smart for us to put anything over you. How did you find out we weren’t Catholics?

After several days of deep thought and reflection, the idea suddenly came to me.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Words used in the Teach my Gospel Manual (used to teach investigators) in describing the early church and it’s apostasy, corrupted, unauthorized, false, distorted, spiritual darkness not nice are they?

Missionaries are told to make investigators understand this:*

"Investigators must understand that a universal apostasy occurred following the death of Jesus Christ and His Apostles. If there had been no apostasy, there would have been no need of a Restoration. As a diamond displayed on black velvet appears more brilliant, so the Restoration stand in striking contrast to the dark background of the Great Apostasy. As guided by the Spirit, teach investigators about the Great Apostasy at a level of detail appropriate to their needs and circumstances. Your purposteis to help them understand the need for the Restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Key Points
**-**The Church of Jesus Christ is built on the foundation of apostles and prophets (see Ephesians 2:19-20;4:11-14). These leaders have divine priesthood authority. Through revelation they direct the affairs of the Church. They maintain doctrinal purity, authorize the administration of ordinances, and call and confer upon others the priesthood authority.

**-**People rejected and killed Jesus Christ and the Apostles (see Matthew 24:9; 1Nephi 11:32-34; 2 Nephi27:5). With the death of the Apostle, the presiding priesthood authority was absent from the Church. Consequently, there was no longer authority to confer the Holy Ghost or perform other saving ordiances. Revelation ceased and doctrine became corrupted.

**-**Even before the death of the Apostles, many conflicts concerning doctrine arose. The Roman Empire, which at first had persecuted the Christians, later adopted Christianity. Important religious questions were settled by councils. The simple doctrines and ordinances taught by the Savior were debated and changed to conform to worldly philosophies (see Isaiah 24:5). They physically changed the scriptures, removing plain and precious doctrines from them (1 Nephi 13:26-40). They created creeds, or statements of belief based on false and changed doctrine (see Joseph Smith–History 1:19). Because of prided, some aspired to positions of infuluence (see 3 John 1:9-10). People accepted these false ideas and gave honor to false teachers who taught pleasing doctrines rather than divine truth (see 2 Timothy 4:3-4).

**-**Throughout history, many people have sincerely believed false creeds and doctrines. They have worshiped according to the light they possessed and have received answers to their prayers. Yet they are “kept from the truth because they know not where to find it” (D&C 123:12).

**-*Therefore, a restoration, not a reformation, was required. Priesthood authority did not continue in an unbroken line of succession from the Apostle Peter. To reform is to change what already exits: to restore is to bring back something in its original form. Thus, restoration of priesthood authority through divine messengers was the only possible way to overcome the Great Apostasy."

Every hour of every day more than 50,000 Mormon missionaries are out tearing down the “religion” of others. "Investigators must understand that a universal apostasy occurred following the death of Jesus Christ and His Apostles. If there had been no apostasy, there would have been no need of a Restoration. " this means the missionary must convince the investigator that his religion is false. LDS can tell me all they want that “we don’t tear down others faith” but you know what, you don’t have to, your church deploys those whose only job is to do just that. It’s their job to convince others that their churches are “corrupted, unauthorized, false, distorted and in spiritual darkness”.

And this is just lesson 1 we still have the vision and the abominable creeds to go.

 

[ParkerD]

To all who happen to still refer to this thread:

I encourage you to read (I hope re-read) Isaiah 55, entire chapter, particularly the first three verses which say:

“Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.”

“Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness.”

“Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.”

I also encourage you to re-read Deuteronomy 4:27-29, which says:

"And the Lord shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the Lord shall lead you.

"And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men’s hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.

“But if from thence thou shalt seek the Lord thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.”

The promises are sure. The mercies of David are sure. The everlasting covenant is a sure covenant.

 

[MelanieAnne]

Why me, you sly ole devil you. You’re just too smart for us to put anything over you. How did you find out we weren’t Catholics?

WhyMe isn’t a Catholic. This is projection. He’s accusing others of things that are actually true about him. Perhaps he despises that part of himself?

 

[Stephen168]

I am having my doubts that these guys are catholic. I just can’t see a catholic posting these kinds of posts and then go for communion, say the rosary, the divine chaplet etc. I just can’t see it.

That is because you are not Catholic.

 

[ricko]

To all who happen to still refer to this thread:

I encourage you to read (I hope re-read) Isaiah 55, entire chapter, particularly the first three verses which say:

“Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.”

“Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness.”

“Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.”

I also encourage you to re-read Deuteronomy 4:27-29, which says:

"And the Lord shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the Lord shall lead you.

"And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men’s hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.

“But if from thence thou shalt seek the Lord thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.”

The promises are sure. The mercies of David are sure. The everlasting covenant is a sure covenant.

Now, could you give us your interpretation in your own clear words?