Why all the objection to traditionalism?

[brotherhrolf]

I was born and raised as a traditional Catholic. I grew up with the TLM. I am the product of 13 years of Catholic education - the majority of which was before Vatican II. The changes which started in 1967 have profoundly affected me. I was happy with HMC and like some of my generation (and many more of my parent’s generation), the changes were not all for the good.

There are those of us on this forum who were alive back then and went through the changes. We did not get a chance to speak out about our feelings back then. Do you honestly think that I wanted to sing Simon and Garfunkel’s “Bridge Over Troubled Waters” and “Sounds of Silence” at my Catholic boy’s high school graduation Mass in 1969? Do you realize that those were basically “Top 20” popular hits back then?

On this forum, I finally get a voice to express my feelings and the feelings of those of us who remember what it was like to be a Catholic before 1967. There are many others voicing similar opinions from all over the world.

Our thoughts are subject to derision and hostility from all sectors. We have Protestant converts from evangelical backgrounds railing against the use of Latin. We have brethren from Eastern traditions who quibble over semantics and tell us that the abuses we have seen are not something to be concerned about if the Mass was licit. We have our own fellow Roman Catholics who grew up after Vatican II telling us that no, people didn’t understand the Latin Mass and we have our own fellow Roman Catholics who make it a badge of honor that it is not the NO but the OF even though Novus Ordo was the term that was used back then.

Yes, there are traditional posters who adopt a “superior” tone. And, there may be some who would like to send us back to the past. I am not one of them. I grew up in what was called back then a “mixed marriage”. My father was Protestant. Vatican II did change things that needed to be changed. Can you imagine having to go to your parish priest today to ask for permission to attend your Protestant grandmother’s funeral at her church?

There was a thread this morning which recorded a Midnight Mass from a parish in New York in which the Preface was chanted and went into the choir singing the Sanctus (which I suspect was composed by Victoria [Vittoria]). I grew up with the main Sunday Mass at my parish being a Missa Cantata. That recording dropped me back. I had no problem responding to the priest in chant and the sounds of the “kneelers” falling and to remember the stillness that my soul felt that I seldom feel today.

The Holy Father obviously saw a need. So, my question is why all the objections to traditionalism?

 

[bpbasilphx]

Decades ago, I was saying that if there were people attached to what was then called the Tridentine Mass, I saw no reason why it should not be available for them. And I am glad that many who prefer it can attend it.

No one here, to my knowlege, objects to the Extraordinary Form as such. I certainly do not. (BTW: EF and OF are the terms preferred by Pope Benedict himself. Isn’t following the Pope’s lead traditional, too?)

No one here, to my knowledge, objects to Latin in the Ordinary Form–or any other language, for that matter.

But what I take issue with is the frequently expressed attitude that the Extraordinary Form in Latin (though it was celebrated in Slavonic before Vatican II) is intrinsically superior to all other authorized liturgies of the Church. This is STRICTLY against the teaching of many Popes.

And I object to certain grave deviations from the Liturgical norms of the Ordinary Form of the Roman rite as if they were the rule and not, thank God, the exception.

And, since you mentioned it, there is a difference between “illicit” (or “irregular”) and “invalid.” It’s a distinction that many people miss.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Call me a rebel, Bishop. As a southerner, you should understand that…you know, the War of Northern Aggression and all that.

There are some who state that Latin is superior. I am not one of them It is part of our western heritage. Our Anglican brethren did a really spiffy job of translating Latin into Elizabethan English. Translations are spot on. But for me (as a cathedral chorister who had to sing them, “Sing My Tongue the Savior’s Glory” is not “Pange Lingua Gloriosi” on Holy Thursday) it is like taking a shower with a raincoat on.

I keep alive my Southern heritage and I keep alive my Catholic heritage. That’s what it is all about for me. We threw the baby with the bath water out in 1967 and with all due respect, Bishop, the Eastern church did not. I simply do not understand why you and others can say that the abuses I have seen in the last 40+ years are OK.

 

[bpbasilphx]

Call me a rebel, Bishop. As a southerner, you should understand that…you know, the War of Northern Aggression and all that.

There are some who state that Latin is superior. I am not one of them It is part of our western heritage. Our Anglican brethren did a really spiffy job of translating Latin into Elizabethan English. Translations are spot on. But for me (as a cathedral chorister who had to sing them, “Sing My Tongue the Savior’s Glory” is not “Pange Lingua Gloriosi” on Holy Thursday) it is like taking a shower with a raincoat on.

I keep alive my Southern heritage and I keep alive my Catholic heritage. That’s what it is all about for me. We threw the baby with the bath water out in 1967 and with all due respect, Bishop, the Eastern church did not. I simply do not understand why you and others can say that the abuses I have seen in the last 40+ years are OK.

**I’ll do you one better. A certain noted Orthodox Archbishop in the south said that not only was the baby thrown out with the bathwater, but they kept the afterbirth and put a bonnet on it.

And please tell me WHERE I ever said that abuses were OK. Be specific.

As for my proposed solution, I’m treating that in another thread.

Southerner? Orthodixie or death! **

 

[fish90]

This is what a lot of people think today.

People find today that the Mass has to be exciting. We need happy music not that boring stuff. (Even though a lot of people still do not pay attention)

Instead of sacred, people find the Church to be a source of excess. We need modest Churches. Think about all the poor we could have feed.

Being Catholic now means allowing everybody to join even when they do not accept our doctrines. Let those nonCatholics have the Eucharist! (I think the Orthodox can receive yet are discouraged by their leadership) Who cares that St. Paul would have a fit.

The Church needs to change with the times.

Women should be able to wear anything they want. (veils) Those men need to get over it.

Jesus loves everybody so much, your sins will always be forgiven.

We need to love and accept everything people do including sin. (There has to be some fallacy with this)

 

[brotherhrolf]

You did not state that the abuses were OK, Bishop but for any Roman Catholic who grew up after Vatican II, you and Fr. Brendan have provided legalistic explanations that suggest that the Mass was licit and therefore we should just roll over and play dead.

You will pardon me Bishop. I cried at the one Divine Liturgy that I attended at the Eastern Orthodox cathedral in New Orleans in 1976 on Holy Saturday. I fully realized what we had lost in just 10 years. I’ve seen too much in the last 40+ years.

I wonder just how my Eastern Orthodox brethren in New Orleans would respond to their Divine Liturgy having a Dixieland brass brand for their entrance processional. Or perhaps a bouzouki band so that the congregation could dance down the main aisle of the cathedral?

Ain’t gonna happen. So I revert to my original question. Why object to me wanting that which you have without complaint?

 

[bpbasilphx]

\You did not state that the abuses were OK, Bishop but for any Roman Catholic who grew up after Vatican II, you and Fr. Brendan have provided legalistic explanations that suggest that the Mass was licit and therefore we should just roll over and play dead.\

I never said that, nor did I mean to imply it. I simply said that these irregularies did not invalidate the Mass. Some people think they do.

\Why object to me wanting that which you have without complaint?\

And where have I objected to you having them? I WANT you to have them. Please look at my new thread “Clown Mass revisited…” where I pose what I think might be the reason for what is happening in some places and I hope is a positive solution.

 

[JustaServant]

The Holy Father obviously saw a need. So, my question is why all the objections to traditionalism?

The unknown, the uncomfortable?
People get stuck in their ways. The over-the-hill hippies doing the folk Mass are nostalicic for what THEY grew up with.
I think it is also a reaction to anything that slaps of authority.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

The Holy Father obviously saw a need. So, my question is why all the objections to traditionalism?

I have no objection to true traditionalism.

What passes for traditionalism in most places today is defined solely by a preference for the Extraordinary Form of the Mass as well as a superior, we know better attitude. That is what I object to.

 

[Frbrendan]

I was born and raised as a traditional Catholic. I grew up with the TLM. I am the product of 13 years of Catholic education - the majority of which was before Vatican II. The changes which started in 1967 have profoundly affected me. I was happy with HMC and like some of my generation (and many more of my parent’s generation), the changes were not all for the good.

There are those of us on this forum who were alive back then and went through the changes. We did not get a chance to speak out about our feelings back then. Do you honestly think that I wanted to sing Simon and Garfunkel’s “Bridge Over Troubled Waters” and “Sounds of Silence” at my Catholic boy’s high school graduation Mass in 1969? Do you realize that those were basically “Top 20” popular hits back then?

Gee, Brotherhrolf, everything you said here is the same as me, except I went to public schools for 6th, 7th and 8th grades, as well as kindergarten. So I only have 8 years of Roman Catholic education. And we did not sing Simon and Garfunkel’s “Bridge Over Troubled Waters” and “Sounds of Silence” at my Catholic co-ed high school graduation Mass in 1969. I forget what songs were used, but I know that it was something equally inappropriate.

I grew up in what was called back then a “mixed marriage”. My father was Protestant. Vatican II did change things that needed to be changed. Can you imagine having to go to your parish priest today to ask for permission to attend your Protestant grandmother’s funeral at her church?

My dad was Episcopalian, and I didn’t get to go to any of my grandparents funerals, so I didn’t have to ask. Anyway, my father’s mother was an ethnic Jew who did not follow the faith. But you can see that our backgrounds are very similar (save that I grew up in Chicago, and I am still praying for the Cubs to win the World Series just once before I die).

You know what I miss most? Benediction. It was and is the single most beautiful liturgy in Roman usage. However, I have found something even better in the Byzantine rite, and that is the Liturgy of the Pre-Sanctified Gifts. It is only served during Great Lent, but is solemn and beautiful beyond belief. If you have a chance, get there once during Lent. It will blow you away.

So, with all the similarities, why does our outlook for the N.O. differ? Maybe because even as an adult, waaaay after 1967 I was never exposed to balloons or dance or clowns or puppets during the N.O. For whatever reason, it just never happened. But I am sure that we have received different Charisms from God. God called me to the discipline of the Tonsure, I did not volunteer. God led me to Orthodoxy. God has obviously called you to remain in the Catholic Church, and I am sure, to other decisions that have molded you into what you are.

One thing I do know. God has given me the gift of looking beyond felt banners, the pop songs, the badly played guitars, the balloons, dancers, clowns, or my particular pet peeve, the jelly jar glass chalices–or worse, pottery or wood or stone–the Precious Blood of Our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ should be in at least a silver chalice with a gold plated cup! I was given the gift from God to see beyond these things and see that it was still the Eucharist, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, that God has given us as a way to be drawn to Him.

 

[brotherhrolf]

See? This is exactly what I have been talking about. No, Bishop, you have not said a bloomin’ thing in opposition. Yet, you stand in opposition. This is not some Thomistic discourse about about obscure points of philosophy or theology.

Here we go again. We the faithful. We the people who had to endure all of the changes that occurred from 1967 on…We the people who submitted to the Magesterium.

Shut your mouths folks. Just keep your mouths shut. Just as we did in 1967.

This is precisely why I posted this thread. We should just keep our mouths shut and just accept all that has happened.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

See? This is exactly what I have been talking about. No, Bishop, you have not said a bloomin’ thing in opposition. Yet, you stand in opposition. This is not some Thomistic discourse about about obscure points of philosophy or theology.

Here we go again. We the faithful. We the people who had to endure all of the changes that occurred from 1967 on…We the people who submitted to the Magesterium.

Shut your mouths folks. Just keep your mouths shut. Just as we did in 1967.

This is precisely why I posted this thread. We should just keep our mouths shut and just accept all that has happened.

One just needs to look at your posts here to answer your question.

You have someone who agrees with you while their preference may be different than yours and all you do is attack.

How can someone not be in opposition yet stand in opposition?

It seems to me that this thread was started for just this sort of argument that you are holding but seeing that no one on the other side took the bait you are forcing the argument on someone who agrees mostly with you and has never said any of then things you are attributing to him (at least I do not recall them).

You must remember, myself, as well as the other two posters here, are religious and live a life of obedience (or try to) that not everyone is called to do so our views are going to be different and if you chose not to accept that and understand that then there is really nothing we can do about it.

 

[Jacafamala]

See? This is exactly what I have been talking about. No, Bishop, you have not said a bloomin’ thing in opposition. Yet, you stand in opposition. This is not some Thomistic discourse about about obscure points of philosophy or theology.

Here we go again. We the faithful. We the people who had to endure all of the changes that occurred from 1967 on…We the people who submitted to the Magesterium.

Shut your mouths folks. Just keep your mouths shut. Just as we did in 1967.

This is precisely why I posted this thread. We should just keep our mouths shut and just accept all that has happened.

Brotherrolf, you can talk to me. I will listen.

But in all fairness, I will then say this: why not just get thyself to the TLM or EF or old Mass, or whatever? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why not!!! Just do it!!! *Errrr, I could shake you!!! *–just kidding–about shaking you. I wouldn’t do that. Even if it’s not the High Mass, go to the Low Mass and you will be happier. Really. I promise. Not ecstatic perhaps, but happier.

 

[ciero]

Fr Brendan if you are a Melkite Catholic monk why does Archbishop Cyril have no idea who you are? He told me he has only 1 monastery & it is in PA and it only has 1 monk, a Fr Angelus. Who are you anyway?

 

[Bbigam]

See? This is exactly what I have been talking about. No, Bishop, you have not said a bloomin’ thing in opposition. Yet, you stand in opposition. This is not some Thomistic discourse about about obscure points of philosophy or theology.

Here we go again. We the faithful. We the people who had to endure all of the changes that occurred from 1967 on…We the people who submitted to the Magesterium.

Shut your mouths folks. Just keep your mouths shut. Just as we did in 1967.

This is precisely why I posted this thread. We should just keep our mouths shut and just accept all that has happened.

Brotherhrolf,
I don’t see anyone in this thread suggesting you should keep your mouth shut, and I don’t see evidence that they stand in opposition to you. Where do you see that?

I’m not officially Catholic yet but it looks like I will be a fairly traditional and faithful, but not “Traditionalist” Catholic. I go to the OF mainly, but at a parish that celebrates it reverently, beautifully, and by the rubrics - and regularly uses some Latin in the liturgy (mainly the Gloria, Sanctus, and Angus Dei, plus sometimes the Pater Noster, and also the Kyrie in Greek). I also try to visit the Latin Mass community (FSSP) about monthly, and really appreciate the reverence and beauty of the EF.

I see beauty in both forms of the Roman/Latin Rite. In the EF I love the deep reverence, the Latin chant, ad orientem, the prayers at the foot of the altar, communion patens, Sanctus bells, kneeling to receive on the tongue, and the variety of other beautiful traditions enshrined in the rubrics.

In the OF I love the Prayers of the Faithful, the expanded lectionary, being able to hear the Eucharistic Prayer (especially the Roman Canon, which Father uses regularly), the option to use English, and the active/verbal participation of the congregation in the liturgy. (Please note that I am not referring to EMHCs, lay homilists, choirs or bands that perform peppy music in the sanctuary, or, God forbid, clowns. I’m talking about the whole congregation reciting/chanting/singing the Kyrie, Gloria, Creed, Sanctus, Pater Noster, Agnus Dei, etc.)

My ideal would be to see the OF retained as the Ordinary Form but with some tightening of the rubrics and the restoration as norm of some of the things that many parishes have lost - kneeling, patens, bells and so on - and more use of Latin chant.

Am I anti-Traditionalist? I also want the EF to always be available and have no problems at all with people who strongly prefer it. As long as they accept Vatican II and accept that the OF is perfectly valid and licit when celebrated correctly. I also have deep respect for the Eastern Catholic Churches, but there aren’t any around here.

 

[ibkc]

No one here, to my knowlege, objects to the Extraordinary Form as such. I certainly do not. (BTW: EF and OF are the terms preferred by Pope Benedict himself. Isn’t following the Pope’s lead traditional, too?)

Ordinary Form is the term in English. To my knowledge, the use of Novus Ordo (or Usus Antiquior, for that matter) has not been forbidden. These terms are used in an official capacity by my own archdiocese. The only place I see the term Novus Ordo condemned is here on CAF. Sorry, but the uncharitable grouching of a few CAF posters does not impress me.

But what I take issue with is the frequently expressed attitude that the Extraordinary Form in Latin (though it was celebrated in Slavonic before Vatican II) is intrinsically superior to all other authorized liturgies of the Church.

I’ve never seen or heard a single person make such a specifically-worded claim. All the trads I know love the Eastern liturgies, when they have had the experience of them. The claim is frequently made that the Extraordinary Form is intrinsically superior to the Ordinary Form, however, and I have seen some people make their declaration of such into a sweeping generalization which might sound like a denunciation of the Eastern liturgies to a sensitive Eastern Catholic soul. But I really don’t think that what you’re saying is common. In fact I would like to see some evidence that this viewpoint is common among Latin Rite traditionalists.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Brother David:

I respect the Eastern Rite and I respect our Eastern Orthodox brethren. I am not Eastern Rite. I am Latin Rite and my ancestors died for their faith in Ireland and Scotland and elsewhere in Europe. Trust me Brother, it is not some idle fantasy. I have the genealogy to back it up.

Is it OK for eastern Europeans to embrace their heritage and not for western Europeans?

May I tell you about all the Latin Rite traditions that exist to this day in south Louisiana which are based upon culture?

I simply wonder why I cannot have my heritage and am assaulted by representatives of the eastern Church which has very little presence here? Join the Eastern church was suggested as an alternative by Fr. Brendan. I already posted a response to this. I appreciate the Eastern viewpoint but my ancestors were not Eastern.

History has graced the Eastern Europeans without having to deal with most of the fall-out of the Protestant Reformantion insofar as HMC goes. And before Bishop Basil hits me with some obscure point of Eastern European history, I already know. I have 55 hours of history under my belt - most of which is ancient and medieval.

I don’t believe that either Bp. Basil or Fr. Brendan agree with my position. The Eastern Church is not plagued with that which I have seen and experienced. They are approaching it from an intellectual point of view. I am approaching it from a very emotional point of view. There are very few Eastern Catholics down here.

I don’t have access to a TLM. I sang in a cathedral choir for 20 years - the majority of which I was banned from singing in Latin. I have driven 25 miles one way since 1983 to avoid having…I have to curb my tongue.

I speak from my heart, Brother David. I grew up in HMC and I have spent the last 40+ years hoping and praying to avoid the a’strummin’ and a’grinnin’ folks and all the rest that I have seen in the last 40+ years.

I do not want to subject myself on y’all nor do I believe that most of my fellow tradionalist do.

My question has not be answered. Why is the Latin Mass and those of us who want to return to the Latin Mass and cannot so objectionable?

 

[Bbigam]

My question has not be answered. Why is the Latin Mass and those of us who want to return to the Latin Mass and cannot so objectionable?

My question is this: Who said that you and the Latin Mass are objectionable? I have not heard any Catholic here say or suggest that.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Brother David:

I respect the Eastern Rite and I respect our Eastern Orthodox brethren. I am not Eastern Rite. I am Latin Rite and my ancestors died for their faith in Ireland and Scotland and elsewhere in Europe. Trust me Brother, it is not some idle fantasy. I have the genealogy to back it up.

I do not understand what this has to do with the discussion. I am not Eastern Rite, people belong to Churches, Churches belong to Rites. I am a Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic. My ancestors were oppressed in Eastern Europe, your ancestors were not the only ones to suffer and die for their faith, but as I said, I do not understand what this has to do with the discussion.

Is it OK for eastern Europeans to embrace their heritage and not for western Europeans?

I have never said this. I am all for those who wish to have the Mass in Latin and in the EF to have it, but that does not mean that it should be forced upon those who do not have a preference for it nor should it be seen as somehow superior.

May I tell you about all the Latin Rite traditions that exist to this day in south Louisiana which are based upon culture?

I simply wonder why I cannot have my heritage and am assaulted by representatives of the eastern Church which has very little presence here? Join the Eastern church was suggested as an alternative by Fr. Brendan. I already posted a response to this. I appreciate the Eastern viewpoint but my ancestors were not Eastern.

From what I have seen in this thread you were not assaulted by anyone. You were being supported.

I don’t have access to a TLM. I sang in a cathedral choir for 20 years - the majority of which I was banned from singing in Latin. I have driven 25 miles one way since 1983 to avoid having…I have to curb my tongue.

I am sorry that you do not have access to the EF.

I must tell you that I use the terms the pope has used. He has said that there is only one Mass in the Latin Church that has two forms, the Ordinary and the Extraordinary. Using the terms NO and TLM makes it appear that there are two Masses, which the pope does not agree with.

I will pray that you get access to the EF. I have been to it, and do not prefer it but I can see why some may be drawn to it.

I speak from my heart, Brother David. I grew up in HMC and I have spent the last 40+ years hoping and praying to avoid the a’strummin’ and a’grinnin’ folks and all the rest that I have seen in the last 40+ years.

I do not want to subject myself on y’all nor do I believe that most of my fellow tradionalist do.

Maybe so, but most of the traditionalists on the internet do.

My question has not be answered. Why is the Latin Mass and those of us who want to return to the Latin Mass and cannot so objectionable?

Your question can only be answered by someone who has an objection to it and no one like that has posted yet in this thread.

Part of the problem I have is that to be considered a “traditionalist” you must have a preference for the EF, I believe that is an incorrect belief.

 

[damooster]

I think I know exactly what brotherhrolf is talking about; he’s not just talking about liturgical changes, but changes in attitude as well.

There are some people who took the changes in liturgy as a sign that it was ok to drift away from other things they weren’t comfortable with either. The parish I went to RCIA with (and am a sponsor for) is a prime example of what brotherhrolf is talking about. The people leading the RCIA group talk about the pre-Vatican II Church as if it were the most boring place to be. They praise the changes that were made, and that’s ok if it’s their opinion but they don’t realize that their students will foster their same attitudes.

If you click on the link in my signature, you’ll see a blog I started to document my attempt to attend Mass at every Latin Rite parish in my diocese (over 65 parishes). The parish I visited on Christmas Eve was built in a way that the area for the band was significantly larger then the actual Sanctuary. To me, that is outrageous and I can only realize that this would have never happened pre-Vatican II.

I submit fully to the Church and do not wish to be schismatic. But many of the problems can be traced back to the change in liturgy, in my humble opinion.