Why Am I for nationa healthcare?

[tjm190]

Ask those “ex-patriots” what a whinging pom is. My neice inlaw who just arrived from England about 6 months ago. Says its ok.Not great but still…Better than being told by comapnies “What you haven’t enough money for treatment? too bad go away and die.” What is most shocking is how many Christians here support that kind of mentality. no wonder Christians have a image problem. Ask yourself… What would Jesus do?

Well let’s see-
As I recall, Jesus once asked a wealthy man to sell his goods and give the resulting money to the poor.
The wealthy man refused.
Jesus allowed him to leave

This would make me think that Jesus is directly opposed to forcing those with money to help others like, oh I dunno, taking the money of others to pay for health care.

 

[tjm190]

With an all out F5 tornado everything is flattened in its path, just like our current system is leaving people flattened. I had a feeling my analogy would be byond the comprehension of some here.

As opposed to health care rationing, where there are no losers or deaths.

 

[ComputerGeek25]

With an all out F5 tornado everything is flattened in its path, just like our current system is leaving people flattened. I had a feeling my analogy would be byond the comprehension of some here.

Or it’s just a ****** analogy…

 

[Sword_Brethren]

I live in the UK and have extensive experience both as a provider and a consumer of national health care.

I can state quite categorically that this poor man would not have ‘waited until he died’ in the UK. Nor would he have been bankrupted to pay for care. He would have been evaluated and if urgent, treated immediately. If it wasn’t an emergency then he would have been recalled and reviewed every 3-6 months to check his condition. The only bills he would have would have been travel costs to the clinic and, if he was working, @$9 per prescribed medicine. If it’s diabetes or thyroid treatment , that is also free at the point of collection.

WHO identified the very best health care system globally as the French. This is also a mix of *national *and private health care.

I am very proud to live in a country that cares for the sick and elderly regardless of income and provides for the poor and unemployed. That any wealthy, democratic country in the 21st century puts people on the street, denies them care and reduces them to the condition of beggars is an absolute disgrace. Just what do you think Jesus will say to those who support, maintain and implement those systems?

But are you free? I think England and Europe don’t know much about liberty or freedom.

 

[DanteAlighieri]

Ill use a meteorology analogy here. Big governement is a tropical storm, borderline catagory one hurricane. Big busness is an F5 maxi tornado. The first may damage more people, but the latter detroys all in it’s path.

Your analogy is patently false, my friend, and it completely ignores my previous post. Big business is dangerous at times, and destructive occasionally – but when it steps out of line, there are consequences. When it oversteps its bounds, it is very often slapped back into place – at least to a degree.

When government oversteps its bounds, there is no recourse. There is no higher power in the nation to whom one may appeal for a redress of grievances. No, when the government steps out of line, we may replace our elected officials – with more of the same. Once the door is opened to government overregulation, it is very difficult to stop it. And when a government is no longer responsive to the will of its people, revolution results.

I’d take a minority of the businesses in the country being corrupt over a new revolutionary WAR any day. Just because you don’t LIKE business – nor do you appear to really understand it – does not make it inherently evil.

Peace,
Dante

 

[DanteAlighieri]

I don’t think the insurance industry regards me with any form of dignity, let alone human dignity.

As has been pointed out to you numerous times in numerous threads, decisions that affect everyone cannot be made based on extreme circumstances. This is not to say that you do not matter or do not deserve more consideration; rather, this debate continues to be about whether the entire nation should be subjugated by a socialistic medical program that will explode the cost of healthcare for EVERYONE so that SOME of the people who don’t have insurance can get it.

Please bear in mind that the debate is about everyone – and decisions that affect everyone cannot be made based on extreme and rare circumstances.

Peace,
Dante

 

[DanteAlighieri]

I live in the UK and have extensive experience both as a provider and a consumer of national health care.

I can state quite categorically that this poor man would not have ‘waited until he died’ in the UK. Nor would he have been bankrupted to pay for care. He would have been evaluated and if urgent, treated immediately. If it wasn’t an emergency then he would have been recalled and reviewed every 3-6 months to check his condition. The only bills he would have would have been travel costs to the clinic and, if he was working, @$9 per prescribed medicine. If it’s diabetes or thyroid treatment , that is also free at the point of collection.

WHO identified the very best health care system globally as the French. This is also a mix of *national *and private health care.

I am very proud to live in a country that cares for the sick and elderly regardless of income and provides for the poor and unemployed. That any wealthy, democratic country in the 21st century puts people on the street, denies them care and reduces them to the condition of beggars is an absolute disgrace. Just what do you think Jesus will say to those who support, maintain and implement those systems?

And in the UK, it appears you are paying higher taxes as a result. According to this source, people who make more than £37,400 (approx. $59,000 US) are paying 40% of their taxable income in taxes. At the moment, people in the US who make upwards of $372,950 (£235,270) fall into our highest tax bracket – of 35% (source). So let’s do a little math, including standard deductions for a young, single person making $60,000 per year (£37,850):

UK: standard deduction is £6,745

£37,850 - £6,475 = £31,375 X 40% = £12,250 in taxes (or $19,418)

US: standard deduction is $5,700

$60,000 - $5,700 = $54,300 X 25% = $13,575 in taxes

That is a 70% increase in taxes if this person were to move from the US to the UK and make exactly the same salary – and that doesn’t even take into consideration the cost of National Insurance, which is another 11% for this person!

We can fix the system without nationalizing it. To put it under government control is to bloat taxes and reduce both personal liberty and responsibility.

Peace,
Dante

 

[aspawloski4th]

As has been pointed out to you numerous times in numerous threads, decisions that affect everyone cannot be made based on extreme circumstances. This is not to say that you do not matter or do not deserve more consideration; rather, this debate continues to be about whether the entire nation should be subjugated by a socialistic medical program that will explode the cost of healthcare for EVERYONE so that SOME of the people who don’t have insurance can get it.

Please bear in mind that the debate is about everyone – and decisions that affect everyone cannot be made based on extreme and rare circumstances.

Peace,
Dante

Actually while the cause of her circumstances are rare the result is not all that uncommon. In the world not on the internet I know several people who are having problems because the way our system is structured.

 

[DanteAlighieri]

Actually while the cause of her circumstances are rare the result is not all that uncommon. In the world not on the internet I know several people who are having problems because the way our system is structured.

Sigh.

OK, you seem to be making the same erroneous assumption that our illustrious leaders make: that if someone is against nationalizing healthcare, one must be in favor of keeping things the way they are.

This is false.

I am passionately opposed to nationalization; at the same time, however, I am not blind to the fact that reform is necessary. But there are ways to fix the system while leaving it an open market that is not controlled by the government!

Peace,
Dante

 

[Oscarthecat]

Actually while the cause of her circumstances are rare the result is not all that uncommon. In the world not on the internet I know several people who are having problems because the way our system is structured.

Ok, but I know several people who will have problems as a direct result of nationalizing the healthcare system.

So, where does that leave us?

Why can’t you understand that you’re not only handing our medical care over to an organization that, by your own admission, is evil- but you are also choosing to hurt one group of people in order to have a chance at helping another group of people.

 

[iluvburpees]

How many times does aspawloski4th need to be corrected before he/she decides he/she is wrong and ends this thread?

We know that communism is evil and satanic. And after billions of posts in this thread, we have learned that this bill is communistic (or “socialistic” if you prefer the softer term). So…

Communism is evil and satanic.
The health care bill is communistic.
Therefore, the health care bill is evil and satanic.

Was that so hard?

 

[Oscarthecat]

How many times does aspawloski4th need to be corrected before he/she decides he/she is wrong and ends this thread?

We know that communism is evil and satanic. And after billions of posts in this thread, we have learned that this bill is communistic (or “socialistic” if you prefer the softer term). So…

Communism is evil and satanic.
The health care bill is communistic.
Therefore, the health care bill is evil and satanic.

Was that so hard?

Oh yeah!?

Well…
“My friends are sick, and the current system isn’t helping them, so I’m going to sign this deal the devil gave me.”

“Capitalism is evil because it allows some people to have more than others.”

“Other countries are doing it, so why can’t we?”

“There’s nothing wrong with communism. All those people who revolted against their communist dictators were just being selfish.”

 

[iluvburpees]

Oh yeah!?

Well…
“My friends are sick, and the current system isn’t helping them, so I’m going to sign this deal the devil gave me.”

“Capitalism is evil because it allows some people to have more than others.”

“Other countries are doing it, so why can’t we?”

“There’s nothing wrong with communism. All those people who revolted against their communist dictators were just being selfish.”

Yeah, my friend was sick too, and I think the mighty government is capable of taking care of him. That’s why we sign this bill to screw up hardworking Americans and unborn babies.

People who oppose this bill are unmerciful and cruel. They would rather see people denied health care than try to help them. We have to work together to get this bill through as fast as possible! It won’t be in effect for a couple years, but hey, that’s irrelevant.

Let’s make sure we don’t be uncharitable. The Lord is surely guiding our government in this decision to help Americans. We wouldn’t want to go against the Lord, would we?!

Man, it’s fun talking like a Liberal!

 

[Oscarthecat]

Yeah, my friend was sick too, and I think the mighty government is capable of taking care of him. That’s why we sign this bill to screw up hardworking Americans and unborn babies.

People who oppose this bill are unmerciful and cruel. They would rather see people denied health care than try to help them. We have to work together to get this bill through as fast as possible! It won’t be in effect for a couple years, but hey, that’s irrelevant.

Let’s make sure we don’t be uncharitable. The Lord is surely guiding our government in this decision to help Americans. We wouldn’t want to go against the Lord, would we?!

Man, it’s fun talking like a Liberal!

Uncharitable? I’m not uncharitable!
Why, I just voted for a politician who swore he would impose all these new taxes so he could spend my money on things I strongly believe in!
In fact, I’m so charitable, I even donated to that politicians campaign!
And guess what? Now you get to be charitable too because you are going to pay higher taxes!

You can thank me later

 

[LittleSoldier]

OK how about this.

There is an inner city free clinic in Detroit that is run by the Archdiocese. I do IT work for a living, so I volunteer to do the IT work for this clinic. I have purchased most of the software used out of my own money, or in combination with donations from family and friends.

And while I am there, I will generally spend time watching the little ones and reading to them while mom is in with the doctor.

My father is a ‘retired’ physician who works at this clinic twice a week.

Both of us firmly agree that socialized medicine would be one of the worst things that can be.

We see this in clients who come to the clinic. They have often been treated at the City run hospitals. The medical care is fine, but a secular hospital run by a secular state views the human person as a body to be treated. The Church views the human person who is a union between body and soul and it is the whole person that must be treated.

What place is there in a socialized system for the Doctor to tell the patient that God loves them? What place is there in a State run hospital to tell a woman that their child is really a gift from God, one of the most precious gifts there can be?

It just doesn’t happen.

And that is why God, in His wisdom, called on Peter to “tend my sheep” and not Caesar.

The poor need to look to God and His Church when they are in need, not to rely on the State.

That is what Christ also called for in Matthew 25. It is not enought to stand before God and tell Him that you cared for him when He was sick by writing your local politician to tell him to spend other peoples money.

Thank you both for doing what you do and for answering my question. It’s nice to see that some people (hopefully all people) are not just “talking the talk” but “walking the walk.”

God bless you!!

 

[LittleSoldier]

With respect, this question is moot.

The main issue here is not whether people are following up on their Christian duty; it is what is the appropriate solution to the problem. It is inappropriate to install the government as the solution to a matter of charity simply because we don’t live in a “perfect world”.

The argument that, since not many people are charitable, the government should enforce charity is absurd. Once that begins to occur, there is even less motivation for individuals to be charitable because the government “takes care” of everyone. This is tantamount to replacing the Church with the state.

The government’s role is to protect the rights of individuals by a) staying out of the way and b) preventing individuals and organizations from trampling on the rights of others.

No, we don’t have a perfect health care system. But in this imperfect world, we must err on the side of maintaining individual freedoms (as long as they don’t impede the freedoms of others – e.g., the murder of unborn children is not an appropriate “right” to maintain). The more control a government has, the less likely it is to respect human dignity. This has been demonstrated time after time throughout human history and across the spectrum of ideologies and cultures. What makes anyone think it would go differently here? That we are Americans?

Peace,
Dante

I respectfully disagree that my question is moot. As Christians or as just good, responsible people, it is our duty to take care of those who are ill and that has a direct bearing on whether national healthcare is a good idea. If people are actually helping those who are ill then having national healthcare (or state-run programs or any other programs for that matter) may not even be necessary.

I think we need to have all the data before we can come to a consensus about this problem. Hence, my question.

Peace to you,
Christina

 

[LittleSoldier]

Well let’s see-
As I recall, Jesus once asked a wealthy man to sell his goods and give the resulting money to the poor.
The wealthy man refused.
Jesus allowed him to leave

This would make me think that Jesus is directly opposed to forcing those with money to help others like, oh I dunno, taking the money of others to pay for health care.

Oh wow, what a leap!! We have free will which is given to us by God. Of course Jesus would allow the man to leave. What would you have Him do - strike him dead with a bolt of lightning? To go from this bit of scripture (for which you didn’t even cite a reference) to implying that “Jesus is directly opposed to forcing those with money to help others like, oh I dunno, taking the money of others to pay for health care” is getting pretty close to, oh I dunno, putting words in Jesus’ mouth.

 

[tjm190]

Oh wow, what a leap!! We have free will which is given to us by God. Of course Jesus would allow the man to leave. What would you have Him do - strike him dead with a bolt of lightning? To go from this bit of scripture (for which you didn’t even cite a reference) to implying that “Jesus is directly opposed to forcing those with money to help others like, oh I dunno, taking the money of others to pay for health care” is getting pretty close to, oh I dunno, putting words in Jesus’ mouth.

He had the power to force the man to give did He not? Just as we do? What did he do with that power? So in answer to the question what would Jesus do, the answer is apparent. Does Jesus advocate charity through thievery?

 

[LittleSoldier]

How many times does aspawloski4th need to be corrected before he/she decides he/she is wrong and ends this thread?

We know that communism is evil and satanic. And after billions of posts in this thread, we have learned that this bill is communistic (or “socialistic” if you prefer the softer term). So…

Communism is evil and satanic.
The health care bill is communistic.
Therefore, the health care bill is evil and satanic.

Was that so hard?

I’m sorry but I have a serious problem with your premises; I don’t think that communism is necessarily a satanic plot. I think it’s necessary to prove your first premise before it can be discussed further.

Even if it were true that communism were evil and satanic, all parts of communism would not be evil and satanic (for example, laws banning theft and murder).

As far as aspawloski4th is concerned, he has the right to post in this forum. Perhaps you are not getting your point across to him and he is not getting his point across to you.

 

[LittleSoldier]

He had the power to force the man to give did He not? Just as we do? What did he do with that power? So in answer to the question what would Jesus do, the answer is apparent. Does Jesus advocate charity through thievery?

Please show me where in that scripture passage (which you still haven’t referenced) Jesus is referring to governments.