Why Am I for nationa healthcare?

[Ella]

All one has to do is contact the hospital and arrange a payment schedule. If you are willing to work with them they usually will work with you. You always repeat the terms back to them when making the arrangements and always write down the time, date and person you spoke with in case a problem arises.

Tell it to Pathia. If it’s that easy to work out payment why has she filed bankruptcy repeatedly over medical bills?

Negotiating a payment with the hospital is definitely the route I would suggest, IF the bill payments were realistically do-able. Unfortunately, hospital bills can be in the hundreds of thousands of dollars, and the patient often has difficulty working after their illness, for instance if they had heart bypass surgery… and if they for instance have another heart attack and return to the hospital then they are really in dire straits financially and in ability to work.
We are *the only country in the Western World *that has this scenario.

One more thing. Even if you are insured now, check your long term disability insurance. How long do you have before it runs out? If you are disabled, you can still lose everything even though you had insurance. - another scenario unique to the United States in the Western World.

 

[tjm190]

@Ella- why do you think health care costs are what they are?

 

[NotWorthy]

Has anybody on this rapidly-transpiring thread asked what will happen to medical advancements in a socialized system?

It seems that the urge to make a big profit is what leads to the medical advancements that has put the USA ahead of other countries in medical technology.

 

[Ella]

@Ella- why do you think health care costs are what they are?

It’s a good question and I don’t have a pat answer. I know that the U.S. spends more per capita than any other Western country on health care, yet still manages to leave people uninsured or under-insured.
One reason I am aware of is the massive coding and billing procedures required in order for hospitals and doctors’ offices to communicate with insurance companies.
Another reason I know of is a lack of a national patient information database. Tests get repeated un-necessarily; patients get extra tests so that ER’s can avoid malpractice suits, because there is no way to quickly check someone’s treatment history, especially in an emergency.
Technology costs money; though the Japanese have learned how to make MRI machines cheaper - because they had to - and now they sell them around the world. Reference to the Japan segment of this documentary:
pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/etc/script.html

That’s just a few reasons for high health care costs in the U.S. Health care has to cost something. Insurance is supposed to protect us from catastrophic expenses. Unfortunately, rescission and job loss puts everyone at risk of losing everything to catastrophic expenses, whether we think we are protected from such a scenario or not.

 

[ComputerGeek25]

It’s a good question and I don’t have a pat answer. I know that the U.S. spends more per capita than any other Western country on health care, yet still manages to leave people uninsured or under-insured.
One reason I am aware of is the massive coding and billing procedures required in order for hospitals and doctors’ offices to communicate with insurance companies.
Another reason I know of is a lack of a national patient information database. Tests get repeated un-necessarily; patients get extra tests so that ER’s can avoid malpractice suits, because there is no way to quickly check someone’s treatment history, especially in an emergency.
Technology costs money; though the Japanese have learned how to make MRI machines cheaper - because they had to - and now they sell them around the world. Reference to the Japan segment of this documentary:
pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/etc/script.html

I’ll pose this question to you: Why does the health care system have to be socialized in order to solve the data exchange problem?

It seems to me that that’s cutting off the nose to spite the face.

That’s just a few reasons for high health care costs in the U.S. Health care has to cost something. Insurance is supposed to protect us from catastrophic expenses. Unfortunately, rescission and job loss puts everyone at risk of losing everything to catastrophic expenses, whether we think we are protected from such a scenario or not.

Then lets make it easier for people to self-insure or band together (as opposed to a “public option”)

 

[Ella]

I’ll pose this question to you: Why does the health care system have to be socialized in order to solve the data exchange problem?

It seems to me that that’s cutting off the nose to spite the face.

How so?

The medical data base subject is a touchy one. The majority of people polled about it in the U.S. do not want their medical histories easily accessible to every Dr. Tom Dick n’ Harriet. But it costs us all more money to keep medical information fragmented. We have to decide what the risk of having the database is vs. the reward.

Then lets make it easier for people to self-insure or band together (as opposed to a “public option”)

OK, how would you suggest we do so?

 

[ComputerGeek25]

How so?

The medical data base subject is a touchy one. The majority of people polled about it in the U.S. do not want their medical histories easily accessible to every Dr. Tom Dick n’ Harriet. But it costs us all more money to keep medical information fragmented. We have to decide what the risk of having the database is vs. the reward.

OK, how would you suggest we do so?

As to what we should do (before we even consider any type of government involvement):
Allow competition across state lines.
Address malpractice.
Allow people to independently band together to buy insurance.
Allow people to write off all their expenses of paying for their insurance themselves and allow people to write off all medical expenses (as Ron Paul stated about this topic - this isn’t about health care it is about control).
Allow private MSA/HSA’s that people can put money into and roll over year to year and get interest on, and can only use for Medical care (i.e. make them like 401k’s in that regrards to tax breaks and restrictions on withdrawl).
Look at Medicare price fixing and reimburstment rates.
Do away with “state mandated coverage” - i.e. If people only want catastrophic coverage, don’t cover routine physicals, which drives up costs.
We may also need to look at the FDA approval process and Patent system in regards to new treatments - we need to ensure that people have affordable treatments and that companies can recoup their costs.

And as you rightfully mention, databases, and information exchange efficiency.

 

[pathia]

Negotiating a payment with the hospital is definitely the route I would suggest, IF the bill payments were realistically do-able. Unfortunately, hospital bills can be in the hundreds of thousands of dollars, and the patient often has difficulty working after their illness, for instance if they had heart bypass surgery… and if they for instance have another heart attack and return to the hospital then they are really in dire straits financially and in ability to work.
We are *the only country in the Western World *that has this scenario.
.

The negotiation was something like this:
Them: “Hi, you owe us 150,000!”
Me: “I can’t afford that”
Them: “If you pay it all at once we can knock it down to 75,000!”
Me: “I don’t have that either!”
Them: “How about $1250 a month?”
Me: “I don’t have that either.”
Them: “What about your parents”
Me: “I’m disowned”
Them: “Uuhhhhhhh.”

Then it would be a collections agency later on.

With the smaller bills, they would just write it off, tell me to forget about it after seeing my W2’s, but with the large ones, nothing ever made them stop trying to get money, except my lawyer in the bankruptcies.

Do away with “state mandated coverage” - i.e. If people only want catastrophic coverage, don’t cover routine physicals, which drives up costs.

What is the reasonable cost for a catastrophic plan in the end? That’s all that are ever offered me and they’re $800 a month with a $10,000 to $15,000 deductible, plus a $2500-5000 deductible on drugs.

 

[Ella]

As to what we should do (before we even consider any type of government involvement):
Allow competition across state lines.

This idea has problems. It interferes with the different states’ regulations on insurance. Since usually conservatives support State rule over Federal rule this concern should be apparent to them.

From:kaiserhealthnews.org/Stories/2009/November/06/health-insurance-across-state-lines.aspx:

"“It always sounds appealing to offer more choice,” said Kenneth Thorpe, an Emory University health policy expert and a Health and Human Services official in the Clinton administration. “But if you do look at it more closely, it does raise issues of regulation.”

Regulation is important, critics of the GOP proposal say. In addition to requiring coverage of certain problems and treatments, some states require insurers to sell policies to all applicants and price them uniformly within the same geographic area regardless of individuals’ health status.

If insurers can sell beyond state lines, the concern is that consumers would be attracted to the least comprehensive policies because they’d be cheapest. “You get what you pay for in these policies (and) consumers won’t realize it until they are sick and it’s too late,” said Jerry Flanagan, health care policy analyst for Consumer Watchdog, a California consumer health group."

Address malpractice.

Malpractice costs have remained steady even while health costs have risen dramatically. Reducing malpractice costs does not automatically mean reduced health care costs. Reference:
prescriptions.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/31/would-tort-reform-lower-health-care-costs/

Allow people to independently band together to buy insurance.

I have no problem with this. However it would have to be a very large number of people in order for the healthy ones to offset the high premiums from including the sick. What could result is healthy young people banding together, and sick people left without willing participants in their ‘group’.

Allow people to write off all their expenses of paying for their insurance themselves and allow people to write off all medical expenses (as Ron Paul stated about this topic - this isn’t about health care it is about control).

Sounds good to me. Don’t see how it will do enough to change the status quo with insurance costs.

Cont’d

 

[Ella]

Allow private MSA/HSA’s that people can put money into and roll over year to year and get interest on, and can only use for Medical care (i.e. make them like 401k’s in that regrards to tax breaks and restrictions on withdrawl).

We already have HSA’s. You can roll over the funds. I think it’s a smart idea to expand this in the manner you’ve described. I don’t think it’s the answer to the problem of high insurance costs.

Look at Medicare price fixing and reimburstment rates.

In what manner, exactly?

Do away with “state mandated coverage” - i.e. If people only want catastrophic coverage, don’t cover routine physicals, which drives up costs.

I need to do some research on this one - got any good links?

We may also need to look at the FDA approval process and Patent system in regards to new treatments - we need to ensure that people have affordable treatments and that companies can recoup their costs.

How exactly?

 

[ComputerGeek25]

This idea has problems. It interferes with the different states’ regulations on insurance. Since usually conservatives support State rule over Federal rule this concern should be apparent to them.

From:kaiserhealthnews.org/Stories/2009/November/06/health-insurance-across-state-lines.aspx:

"“It always sounds appealing to offer more choice,” said Kenneth Thorpe, an Emory University health policy expert and a Health and Human Services official in the Clinton administration. “But if you do look at it more closely, it does raise issues of regulation.”

Regulation is important, critics of the GOP proposal say. In addition to requiring coverage of certain problems and treatments, some states require insurers to sell policies to all applicants and price them uniformly within the same geographic area regardless of individuals’ health status.

Fair enough on that point. However, my point on state mandates still stands.

For example, if one stare requires routine physicals to be covered, and another does not require them, the state with the routine physicals will have higher premiums.

Also, why can’t companies re-adjust their premiums and/or plans?

If insurers can sell beyond state lines, the concern is that consumers would be attracted to the least comprehensive policies because they’d be cheapest. “You get what you pay for in these policies (and) consumers won’t realize it until they are sick and it’s too late,” said Jerry Flanagan, health care policy analyst for Consumer Watchdog, a California consumer health group."

This happens with home an auto insurance as well as other products. People just look at the price and don’t read the fine print.

People need to be more careful about this and take some more personal responsibility.

Malpractice costs have remained steady even while health costs have risen dramatically. Reducing malpractice costs does not automatically mean reduced health care costs. Reference:
prescriptions.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/31/would-tort-reform-lower-health-care-costs/

It would make a dent, however.

I have no problem with this. However it would have to be a very large number of people in order for the healthy ones to offset the high premiums from including the sick. What could result is healthy young people banding together, and sick people left without willing participants in their ‘group’.

Put requirements on the risk pool

Sounds good to me. Don’t see how it will do enough to change the status quo with insurance costs.

It would allow people to write off all medical expenses from taxable income.

For example, my contribution in my employers health care comes out pre-tax. It knocks down my tax liability and I’d be stupid not to do it (much like a 401k).

This would allow people to buy some form of insurance, before Uncle Sam takes his cut, especially if there is a claim that insurance and health care is expensive…

 

[pathia]

It would allow people to write off all medical expenses from taxable income.

For example, my contribution in my employers health care comes out pre-tax. It knocks down my tax liability and I’d be stupid not to do it (much like a 401k).

This would allow people to buy some form of insurance, before Uncle Sam takes his cut, especially if there is a claim that insurance and health care is expensive…

Some folks bills are higher than their entire income, how does this help them? Pay no taxes, but still owe more than they make.

 

[ComputerGeek25]

We already have HSA’s. You can roll over the funds. I think it’s a smart idea to expand this in the manner you’ve described. I don’t think it’s the answer to the problem of high insurance costs.

It reduces the burden of having insurance companies or the government pay for every small visit to the doctor/hospital.

It would put some responsibility on patients for finding the best price for some treatments/drugs.

In what manner, exactly?

We need to insure that individuals and companies can invest their capital into researching new treatments, but need to ensure that they can make their money back.

I am not a patent lawyer, but it seems to me 17 years or whatever the current standard for patents is too long, or maybe we need to have some thing in place to help with the manufacture of drugs

I need to do some research on this one - got any good links?

I heard it once on the radio - I will have to find something for you.

How exactly?

This is what has been explained to me by doctors who own their own practice:
If you want to accept Medicare/Medicad patients, Medicare/Medicad set the cost for all patients in your practice regardless if they are on Medicare/Medicad. Private insurance has pegged their reimburstments to this as well.

Now, whether this price the government has set is fair, is another story.

 

[DanteAlighieri]

I wasn’t waiting for the perfect system to support. Iv’e learned with other issues in the pt that when I wait for perfection it isn’t going to be fourthcoming. I’m waiting for my grandmother to pass away and I might be leaving the coutry myself. The dawdle around and get nothing done attitude is a bit much for me. I like to hurry and do things fast. They call this the land of the free, but then why is veryone so darn conformist here! I’m tired of cookie cutter people trying to force me into being cookie cutter myself.

With respect, this is the same absurd argument that many people have used to support the first “stimulus” package that this congress passed: “Something has to be done; let’s just do it!”

It is inefficient, irresponsible, and perhaps economically suicidal to start throwing things at the wall in the hope that something will stick. The notion that people who don’t support THIS healthcare plan are against ANY healthcare reform is an insulting lie. THIS plan will not work; let’s find one that WILL.

I (and I suppose many others here) are not advocating that we leave the system unreformed – we’re merely fighting against the absurd notion that the government – which has never demonstrated this ability in the past – will be able to run a huge, costly, and intensely personal industry more efficiently than the private sector.

The government can’t even balance its OWN budget!

The government votes pay raises for its members regardless of economic crises!

The government is rife with fraud and corruption!

The government can’t turn a “profit” on Amtrak or the US Postal Service!

Why on earth should we trust that it would a) run healthcare properly or b) treat people with any dignity?

That the current situation stinks is no reason to dump it in favor of a system that will probably be even worse, from both an economic standpoint and a personal dignity standpoint.

Peace,
Dante

 

[aspawloski4th]

With respect, this is the same absurd argument that many people have used to support the first “stimulus” package that this congress passed: “Something has to be done; let’s just do it!”

It is inefficient, irresponsible, and perhaps economically suicidal to start throwing things at the wall in the hope that something will stick. The notion that people who don’t support THIS healthcare plan are against ANY healthcare reform is an insulting lie. THIS plan will not work; let’s find one that WILL.

I (and I suppose many others here) are not advocating that we leave the system unreformed – we’re merely fighting against the absurd notion that the government – which has never demonstrated this ability in the past – will be able to run a huge, costly, and intensely personal industry more efficiently than the private sector.

The government can’t even balance its OWN budget!

The government votes pay raises for its members regardless of economic crises!

The government is rife with fraud and corruption!

The government can’t turn a “profit” on Amtrak or the US Postal Service!

Why on earth should we trust that it would a) run healthcare properly or b) treat people with any dignity?

That the current situation stinks is no reason to dump it in favor of a system that will probably be even worse, from both an economic standpoint and a personal dignity standpoint.

Peace,
Dante

I take it you are anti government. I mayself I am both anti governeement and anti big business. When a business gets to be a big business it takes on a life of its own, becaomes self prepetuating and serves no pourpose for the greater good, in many cases, which is what has happened to the health insurance industry and is quickly getting that way with pharmasuticals. We are the only country on God’s green Earth that a midical issues can make one end up loosing everything. That is tons more important than platitudes about big governement andand waste and whatever you want to throw in. Did you read the article in the first post of this thread? Lets hear your response to that!

 

[Oscarthecat]

I take it you are anti government. I mayself I am both anti governeement and anti big business. When a business gets to be a big business it takes on a life of its own, becaomes self prepetuating and serves no pourpose for the greater good, in many cases, which is what has happened to the health insurance industry and is quickly getting that way with pharmasuticals. We are the only country on God’s green Earth that a midical issues can make one end up loosing everything. That is tons more important than platitudes about big governement andand waste and whatever you want to throw in. Did you read the article in the first post of this thread? Lets hear your response to that!

Haven’t we been over this before?

Ok, so you think big government is a lesser evil than big business.

And while you claim to be anti-government, you support giving the government the power and responsibility of taking over our healthcare.

Did you ever hear the one about the sheep who was invited to dinner with a couple of wolves?

The most frustrating this about whole conversation is that you won’t respond directly to any of your own inconsistencies- I fully expect that your reply will be one of the following:

1. Well, what about my friend who is sick?
2. We have to do something! Universal Healthcare is something! We have to do that!
3. Rich people are mean.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Hey…i have a crazy idea…bear with me on this…how about the people go out and get their own coverage and take some personal responsibility for their own problems and concerns, instead of the government jacking honest, hardworking citizens such as myself and the majority of Americans and using it to pay for those who do nothing to try to help themselves…Charity and helping those in need should be handled by Churches and organizations such as St. Jude…not by the government. The governments job should be to have a system of laws in place that ensures our right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness…not to hold our hands all our lives and babysit those who lack the initiative to take care of themselves. I pay for my own coverage…so can everyone else…even if I didn’t, I wouldn’t expect the government, the rich, or anyone for that matter to take care of it for me…if a medical bill causes me to go bankrupt because I didn’t have coverage, that is a personal problem…not society’s. I get sick and tired of liberals who like to take things that aren’t theirs and give them to other people.

I haven’t been able to read this entire thread but this is what I would like to see happen:

(1) All references to class warfare be dropped; it takes the emphasis off the real problem and is really pigeon-holing and judging people incorrectly; we need to pull together to solve this problem;

(2) Private insurance companies should be required to accept those who have pre-existing conditions. At the present time I cannot buy private health insurance because of diabetes (bad genes);

(3) TMJD (temporomandibular joint disorder) should be considered a medical problem (which it is) and should be covered just like any other medical condition;

(4) Mental illness should be covered just like any other kind of medical condition;

(5) People should be encouraged to buy disability mortgage (and/or automobile) insurance;

(6) Companies should be required to continue all health-related insurance for people who suffer on-the-job injuries - this should include dental and vision coverage if it was provided when the person was employed and the costs for these insurances should be borne by the company, not the injured person;

(7) Fraud needs to be stopped, current programs encourage fraud; those who engage in fraud should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law;

(8) Those who are truly needy and not covered under any other health plan should receive health care for a small cost or no cost - unfortunately this must be borne by the productive members of society but if there was no fraud we would actually be paying less IMHO;

(9) People should be educated on health issues and understand they are responsible for much of their health. If people live a healthier lifestyle they will not need so much medical care. Also the rampant use of antibiotics should be halted as it results in strains of bacteria that are resistant to currently available antibiotics so that patients need to receive very expensive, newer antibiotics. Physicians are responsible for a large part of this problem - they prescribe antibiotics for simple viral infections and it does little good;

(10) Programs should be run by individual states - the federal government is too bloated and too incompetent to manage a national health care system;

(11) FUNDING FOR ABORTION ON DEMAND SHOULD BE DROPPED.

 

[LittleSoldier]

It would allow people to write off all medical expenses from taxable income.

For example, my contribution in my employers health care comes out pre-tax. It knocks down my tax liability and I’d be stupid not to do it (much like a 401k).

This would allow people to buy some form of insurance, before Uncle Sam takes his cut, especially if there is a claim that insurance and health care is expensive…

I don’t pay income tax. That is because I am disabled from an on-the-job injury and the disability retirement that I receive is one half of my pay from when I became disabled and a COLA. I don’t know why the system is set up like that. It’s just the way it is.

So I can’t write anything off.

There must be hundreds of thousands of people in the same boat. Perhaps this needs to be examined.

 

[ComputerGeek25]

I haven’t been able to read this entire thread but this is what I would like to see happen:

(1) All references to class warfare be dropped; it takes the emphasis off the real problem and is really pigeon-holing and judging people incorrectly; we need to pull together to solve this problem;

(2) Private insurance companies should be required to accept those who have pre-existing conditions. At the present time I cannot buy private health insurance because of diabetes (bad genes);

(3) TMJD (temporomandibular joint disorder) should be considered a medical problem (which it is) and should be covered just like any other medical condition;

(4) Mental illness should be covered just like any other kind of medical condition;

(5) People should be encouraged to buy disability mortgage (and/or automobile) insurance;

(6) Companies should be required to continue all health-related insurance for people who suffer on-the-job injuries - this should include dental and vision coverage if it was provided when the person was employed and the costs for these insurances should be borne by the company, not the injured person;

(7) Fraud needs to be stopped, current programs encourage fraud; those who engage in fraud should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law;

(8) Those who are truly needy and not covered under any other health plan should receive health care for a small cost or no cost - unfortunately this must be borne by the productive members of society but if there was no fraud we would actually be paying less IMHO;

(9) People should be educated on health issues and understand they are responsible for much of their health. If people live a healthier lifestyle they will not need so much medical care. Also the rampant use of antibiotics should be halted as it results in strains of bacteria that are resistant to currently available antibiotics so that patients need to receive very expensive, newer antibiotics. Physicians are responsible for a large part of this problem - they prescribe antibiotics for simple viral infections and it does little good;

(10) Programs should be run by individual states - the federal government is too bloated and too incompetent to manage a national health care system;

(11) FUNDING FOR ABORTION ON DEMAND SHOULD BE DROPPED.

LittleSoldier,

I think we disagree on some stuff, agree on other stuff, but you have generally been a good and respectful debater.

 

[ComputerGeek25]

I don’t pay income tax. That is because I am disabled from an on-the-job injury and the disability retirement that I receive is one half of my pay from when I became disabled and a COLA. I don’t know why the system is set up like that. It’s just the way it is.

So I can’t write anything off.

There must be hundreds of thousands of people in the same boat. Perhaps this needs to be examined.

I guess my point here is that your situation may not be the norm for most Americans (not to belittle your situation).