Why Am I for nationa healthcare?

[LittleSoldier]

Apology accepted - and I agree: the internet is a tricky place when it comes to reading someone’s “tone”.

True – but we also have the benefit of history. If we look at the history of human government, even just in the 20th century, we see example after example of what happens when a government obtains too much control over its people – even when such is done with good intentions. The French Revolution, the Russian Revolution, the Nazi takeover of Germany, the Cuban Revolution, the socialist regime in Argentina, just to name a few, indicate that the more control a government has, the harder it is to get that government to relinquish control. Truthfully, once the government has such control, it is far easier for nefarious elements – such as opportunistic would-be dictator-types – to nudge themselves into the picture. It just isn’t a risk worth taking in order to give government a “try”.

Agreed. The flip side, though, is that people who do pay taxes tend to be at least a little resentful of endlessly having to bear the burden of those who don’t instead of finding a way to help those people set themselves up on firmer ground.

Again, apology accepted.

I personally do not have insurance, and I’m terrified of what might happen if the current plans – or, God forbid, a public option – become law. What am I going to do if the government “fines” (i.e., taxes) me for not purchasing insurance? What am I going to do if I have yet another (twice last year) hospitalization? I’m cruising toward bankruptcy, and it’s not entirely the insurance industry’s fault.

And yet, I must stand on the principle that the government has no business sticking its nose into this. It (by which I mean our government as well as Government in general) has a long track record of NOT being able to do such things effectively or ethically. I’m not willing to see what will happen if we let it try again!

The fact that there is any attempt at all to allow federal funds to pay for abortions proves that this entire circus is politically motivated and NOT a sober, sincere attempt to reform anything. The strings that are being pulled, the closed-door meetings, the deals that are being struck – all of this smells of typical corrupt political machinations, and if there is an area in which such shenanigans do NOT belong, it’s something as personal as healthcare. And I feel that your prediction is dead on: we will probably lose doctors and hospitals who would rather throw in the towel and their licenses rather than provide abortions. And guess which hospitals frequently waive their costs for people who can’t afford to pay (like me)?

Catholic hospitals, for one.

No harm, no foul.

Peace,
Dante

Thank you. You are very gracious. Your point about history is a good one. I hadn’t thought of that. I am very frightened of what is going to happen in this country. I was forced to declare bankruptcy after I became injured at work and lost my job. I had to abandon my house. I was very lucky because I managed to buy another house a year or so later and got back into the housing market right before prices started going up. I could never afford to buy my house now.

If I get hurt again (or seriously ill) I don’t know what I’ll do. But still I feel the worst flaw is that abortion thing. We already have legal euthanasia in Oregon. We’re sliding down that old slippery slope and we’re already well on our way.

Sometimes I want to sell my house, take whatever I get, buy some land in Montana and move there - as far away as I can be from government. But then what do I do if I get sick or if I fall and hurt myself (I have degenerative disc disease and fall a lot).

The more I think about it the less comfortable I feel with a national health care plan. Something needs to be done but I don’t think the federal government can provide the answer. So who can??

I will read your post again tomorrow. For some reason I’m exhausted and I can’t keep my eyes open. From what I’ve seen I think we agree.

Christ’s Peace,
Christina

 

[ryecroft]

I’ve got to agree with the person that said we were just tired of the sam,e old arguments - it’s like beating a dead horse that you’re tring to shock back to life. If you guys want to debate this some more fine, but I’m sick of it! Whoops, can’t be sick of it, i’d have to use socialized medicine then!
God Bless
Rye

 

[aspawloski4th]

I’ve got to agree with the person that said we were just tired of the sam,e old arguments - it’s like beating a dead horse that you’re tring to shock back to life. If you guys want to debate this some more fine, but I’m sick of it! Whoops, can’t be sick of it, i’d have to use socialized medicine then!
God Bless
Rye

If you had my income or Pathia’s that would be your ONLY chance at healthcare.

 

[Ella]

Little Soldier, you wrote:

I was forced to declare bankruptcy after I became injured at work and lost my job.

Why did you have to declare bankruptcy? Why did you have to lose your house?

 

[DanteAlighieri]

If you had my income or Pathia’s that would be your ONLY chance at healthcare.

Again - extreme cases cannot dictate policy for the entire nation. Socialized medicine will increase costs and reduce quality for EVERYONE - including you and Pathia.

Reform is needed, but the insurance industry needs to be allowed to compete across state lines, for one thing. Getting the government involved is likely going to cause taxes to shoot through the roof – including income taxes.

Peace,
Dante

 

[pathia]

Again - extreme cases cannot dictate policy for the entire nation. Socialized medicine will increase costs and reduce quality for EVERYONE - including you and Pathia.

Reform is needed, but the insurance industry needs to be allowed to compete across state lines, for one thing. Getting the government involved is likely going to cause taxes to shoot through the roof – including income taxes.

Peace,
Dante

You can’t reduce nothing. You keep acting as if I get care, I don’t. I get emergency services when I am on death’s door. That is not care. I get nothing. What part of ‘nothing’ isn’t understood? I have been denied in 10+ states, competing across state lines does nothing, they’ve already all denied me already. That does NOTHING.

 

[DanteAlighieri]

You can’t reduce nothing. You keep acting as if I get care, I don’t. I get emergency services when I am on death’s door. That is not care. I get nothing. What part of ‘nothing’ isn’t understood? I have been denied in 10+ states, competing across state lines does nothing, they’ve already all denied me already. That does NOTHING.

I’m not acting as if you get care. I am not discussing your circumstances because I have nothing to suggest. I am not well versed enough in the options that are available for people who cannot get insurance because of catastrophic illness.

What I do know is that if costs are reduced through more reasonable regulation of the industry, removing illegal aliens from the rolls of those who don’t pay, and spreading the risk pool out more broadly, insurance companies might be able to provide coverage to people who are in high risk categories.

Again, though - all I can offer to you is my sympathy and prayers. Please know that I am sincere when I say this.

Peace,
Dante

 

[pathia]

I’m not acting as if you get care. I am not discussing your circumstances because I have nothing to suggest. I am not well versed enough in the options that are available for people who cannot get insurance because of catastrophic illness.

What I do know is that if costs are reduced through more reasonable regulation of the industry, removing illegal aliens from the rolls of those who don’t pay, and spreading the risk pool out more broadly, insurance companies might be able to provide coverage to people who are in high risk categories.

Again, though - all I can offer to you is my sympathy and prayers. Please know that I am sincere when I say this.

Peace,
Dante

There has to be a stick or a gun held by the government. That is regulation. An insurance company only has to look into my medical and debt history to see that I’ve cost over half a million dollars. No company would make that bet unless they’re forced to by the government. No one else has the authority to force them to take me as a customer.

 

[aspawloski4th]

Again - extreme cases cannot dictate policy for the entire nation. Socialized medicine will increase costs and reduce quality for EVERYONE - including you and Pathia.

Reform is needed, but the insurance industry needs to be allowed to compete across state lines, for one thing. Getting the government involved is likely going to cause taxes to shoot through the roof – including income taxes.

Peace,
Dante

Well guess what! I’m not an extreme case. I can’t see a skin doctor on account of being unemployed(which is many thesedays) For what you ask? Multiple moles that have a better than average chance of becoming cancerous and killing me. That isn’t reare or extreme. Don’t call me extreme, that is insulting. I really do not care about majorities, I just care about individuals. Everyone is different. By the kind of talk you spew , you sound like you want us to all be cookie cutter people and to be the same. After what you say about competing accross state lines , you had better not whine about states rights. It will not reduce my or Pathia’s quality of care. We have none.

 

[tjm190]

Well guess what! I’m not an extreme case. I can’t see a skin doctor on account of being unemployed(which is many thesedays) For what you ask? Multiple moles that have a better than average chance of becoming cancerous and killing me. That isn’t reare or extreme. Don’t call me extreme, that is insulting. I really do not care about majorities, I just care about individuals. Everyone is different. By the kind of talk you spew , you sound like you want us to all be cookie cutter people and to be the same. After what you say about competing accross state lines , you had better not whine about states rights. It will not reduce my or Pathia’s quality of care. We have none.

You use the system that works for the MAJORITY of individuals, you create add ons to that system for those that do not.

Allowing insurance companies to cross states lines has nothing to do with state’s rights- just about every other service is allowed to do so already.

 

[tjm190]

There has to be a stick or a gun held by the government. That is regulation. An insurance company only has to look into my medical and debt history to see that I’ve cost over half a million dollars. No company would make that bet unless they’re forced to by the government. No one else has the authority to force them to take me as a customer.

State governments force car insurance companies to take on a certain percentage of high risk individuals- I fail to see why this hasn’t been implemented in this scenario.

Of course, the underlying issue is a shortage of care- this leads to high prices.

 

[pathia]

State governments force car insurance companies to take on a certain percentage of high risk individuals- I fail to see why this hasn’t been implemented in this scenario.

Of course, the underlying issue is a shortage of care- this leads to high prices.

I believe some states do this for health insurance too, but the premiums+deductibles on those are still out of my price range, especially now.

Also, it’s regulation and it seems all regulation is bad when it comes to healthcare. Folks keep saying there needs to be less, when less would make it much worse for folks in my situation.

 

[tjm190]

I believe some states do this for health insurance too, but the premiums+deductibles on those are still out of my price range, especially now.

Also, it’s regulation and it seems all regulation is bad when it comes to healthcare. Folks keep saying there needs to be less, when less would make it much worse for folks in my situation.

You want to get rid of regulation when the free market solution is the one you want- we are in a disagreement about whether or not we want a healthcare system that relies PRIMARILY on the free market (which we have now) or one that relies on government. However, it is generally acknowledged that there is no free market solution to those who can not be covered profitably (at affordable rates that is)

The only long term solution is too increase the amount of healthcare out there (which in my opinion could be accomplished most easily be giving heavy subsidies to med students) or decrease demand (give incentives for people to live healthier lives)

 

[pathia]

You want to get rid of regulation when the free market solution is the one you want- we are in a disagreement about whether or not we want a healthcare system that relies PRIMARILY on the free market (which we have now) or one that relies on government. However, it is generally acknowledged that there is no free market solution to those who can not be covered profitably (at affordable rates that is)

The only long term solution is too increase the amount of healthcare out there (which in my opinion could be accomplished most easily be giving heavy subsidies to med students) or decrease demand (give incentives for people to live healthier lives)

Uh, I don’t want to get rid of regulation.

 

[tjm190]

Uh, I don’t want to get rid of regulation.

I mean ‘you’ in general- sometimes ‘you’ want to get rid of regulation. For example, in the 1970’s European banks were easily able to out compete American banks because our banks were much more regulated. So we got rid of the regulations otherwise our banks would have died. Turns out that you need those regulations to keep banks from committing economic suicide- so now we want them back.

 

[Viki63]

Of course, the underlying issue is a shortage of care- this leads to high prices.

There is no shortage of care. Pathia can go to the ER if she likes, although it will not be the care she needs for a chronic condition and it will be extremely expensive (to society). There are not enough primary care doctors, because specialists make a lot more money, there’s little incentive to become a GP.
We need to reimburse doctors for good outcomes, not for number of procedures performed.

The whole point of sharing the costs of medical care is so that everyone gets care and no one goes bankrupt. There’s no need for insurance companies to make any profits. When I’m healthy, I work and pay into the system. When I have an accident or get sick, the rest of the healthy people help pay my bills. Or that’s how it should be.
It works in other countries. No reason it couldn’t work here.

 

[pathia]

There is no shortage of care. Pathia can go to the ER if she likes, although it will not be the care she needs for a chronic condition and it will be extremely expensive (to society). .

All I have are chronic conditions. If i didn’t have those, I’d be pretty healthy. I don’t have anything wrong with me outside of genetic conditions from birth that no one outside of God could have any influence over their manifestation.

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Lynn,

What do you propose that the US do with those '‘illegal aliens’ who are sick whilst within the borders of the US?

The hoary old chestnut that the pharmaceutical industry needs its high income and protection for R & D needs laying to rest.

In 1998 - the most recent stats that I could find just now, they spent $12.7billion on marketing. This is a great deal more than they were spending on R & D.
med.stanford.edu/news_releases/2003/may/Pharmaceutical.html

If I find more up to date stats then I will post them.

Fran:

And, How much for the Auto Industry? For the Real Estate Industry? For the Auto Insurance, Life Insurance & Health Insurance Industries? For the Computer Industry? Software? Entertainment and TV Broadcasting? or, For any of the other 33 Industries that were listed AHEAD of the Pharmaceutical Industry?

$3.5 Billion of that Budget was spent sending PEOPLE to offices such as the Pain Clinic I used to go to. I used to RELY on the Pharmaceutical samples those reps brought by that Pain Clinic. Since I went on Medicare Advantage & UCLA, I’ve gone to a NEW Pain Clinic, one the Reps can’t go to - NO Samples for me! Luckily, I have a lower deductible with Medicare Advantage than I had with my old HMO, so I don’t need the samples as badly. That was BEFORE the DEMs voted to take $540 Billion out of Medicare.

Are you begrudging the Reps who go to the Doctors’ Offices the jobs they have? or, Just the money they’re paid for doing those jobs?

Fran, What you’re criticizing is as much a part of Modern Capitalism as a computer is part of a modern office. How many people here would really have bought a large Flatscreen Hi-Def TV, a new Tempur-Pedic or a fancy new car if not for advertising? Why should Pharmaceuticals, which some of us need every bit as much as anyone needs any of those, and which require far more information to dispense, be any different?

And, Fran, the report you linked provided NO data about how much money Pharmaceutical Companies spent on R & D. and, Nothing you state refers to things such as this:

Pfizer Discontinues A Phase 3 Trial Of Figitumumab In Non-Small Cell Lung Cancer (NSCLC) For Futility
tinyurl.com/ydtujge

I’m sure a LOT of money was spent developing this drug, which will never see the light of day (The drug doesn’t work). Something like 85-90% of the drugs these companies develop don’t make it to the marketplace for one reason or the other.

Thomas Edison once said that he discovered nearly 1,000 ways how NOT to make a light bulb BEFORE he succeeded. All of those failures cost money. If these companies are going to “eat” the cost of the “failures”, we’ve got to allow them some profit on their successes.

If you REALLY can’t stand that, there’s always Canada or England, where you can get “wait-listed” to use an MRI or a CT Scanner for Diagnosis or “wait-listed” again even for Treatment urgently needed to save your life, or you could be told that Gamma-Knife is an Extraordinary Procedure requiring Approval & Clearance from the Home Office of NHS (FYI, Gamma Knife is now the “Standard of Care” in many cases in many countries outside the UK & Canada). There are only 4 Gamma-Knife Devices in all of the UK (with a population of 54,439,000), while I got 90 results in the Los Angeles-Orange-Ventura County Area, State of California (population 36,757,000 for the whole state). That’s a LOT of Gamma Knifes to be installed over the course of 10-16 years (The first were installed 17 years ago)…
Gamma Knifes in Los Angeles
Gamma Knifes Near Los Angeles

Fran, I really wish Socialism worked - It doesn’t. I could give example after example of how Socialism and big government just doesn’t work, but I really need to allow someone else to post.

Our Lord Jesus didn’t tell us to create a huge secular government to take care of people - He told us to find some way to do it ourselves and as a Church that has been called out from the world. Maybe, If we as the Church decided to care for the “Illegal Aliens” who were Catholics, most of our fellow countrymen wouldn’t be so angry about “Illegal Immigration”.

What do you think would happen to this whole debate if we as Catholics did our duty and TITHED? What do you think would happen if we as the Church, had the money to take care of our Brothers & Sisters in need, instead of palming them off on everyone else, esp. on the unbelievers? What do you think would happen to our Spiritual Growth? Our Unity? and, Our Witness?

I hope I’ve given you something MORE than politics to think about.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

All I have are chronic conditions. If i didn’t have those, I’d be pretty healthy. I don’t have anything wrong with me outside of genetic conditions from birth that no one outside of God could have any influence over their manifestation.

Pathia/Rachel:

I’m on SSDI, so whenever I see someone say what you said, I start looking at his or her profile to see what the Chronic Conditions are:
Age 29 - 6’ tall
Strokes
Brain Tumors
Difficulty Walking - Mobility Impaired
Extreme Pain -
Difficulty Typing
Can’t get Medicaid (Dependents - Too much money from Disability)
Sterile - Intersexed Mosaic (XY, XXY, XX)
Mental History - Suicide Attempts
You said you were on disability - I assume it’s State Disability because you don’t have Medicare.
I hope that sums it up - feel free to correct or add. I figured I had spent 2 hours searching through posts, and that was enough.

Remember, I live with extreme pain, too, along with a few other Disabilities. So I can more than sympathize. I also tried to work through a lot of the pain, until I was laid off from a job and found no one else would hire someone as disabled as I was. You might be in that situation.

First, You do live SOMEWHERE, even if it’s a ONE-ROOM HOVEL (Been there, Done that)! Where you live gives those of us who want to help you an idea of the sort of conditions we’re operating under.

Pathia, I’m going to ask you to do me a few favors:

Start posting your situation (or a description) in the Prayer Request Section. Just ask for prayers and Healing.
List where you live - It tells us what kind of bureaucracy you’re dealing with & what shape the economy is in your state.
Please, try going back to Church, even if you can only do it once or twice a month. I know you feel as if you’ve been “asked to leave”, but that was your family, not God.
Most of the people here probably won’t be able to understand how angry you are about some things… John Heard will. Look at his site DREADNOUGHT
johnheard.blogspot.com/
and, Read what he has to say.
And, P/M me to let me know how things are going…

I know this may be hard for you to believe right now - You’re a child of God, made in the Image and Likeness of God, redeemed at the cost of the Son of God, who loves you so much He had your name engraved in the Palm of His hand while he was being crucified… You probably have a hard time believing that, but it’s true.

I hope this helps. Please let me know if you have any questions.

Your Brother & Servant in Christ, Michael

 

[DanteAlighieri]

Well guess what! I’m not an extreme case. I can’t see a skin doctor on account of being unemployed(which is many thesedays) For what you ask? Multiple moles that have a better than average chance of becoming cancerous and killing me. That isn’t reare or extreme. Don’t call me extreme, that is insulting. I really do not care about majorities, I just care about individuals. Everyone is different. By the kind of talk you spew , you sound like you want us to all be cookie cutter people and to be the same. After what you say about competing accross state lines , you had better not whine about states rights. It will not reduce my or Pathia’s quality of care. We have none.

I apologize for insulting you - it was not my intent.

I’m also sorry that you are unable or unwilling to look at the big picture. I can certainly understand why; with a particularly frightening personal situation, it becomes difficult to be objective.

Unfortunately, we cannot allow our entire system to be dictated by subjectivity.

Please understand (and Pathia, too) that I am NOT advocating that we leave things the way they are! I am suggesting that getting the government involved is not the answer.

With that, I leave you. I am only able to argue the issue from an objective standpoint as it affects the whole nation. You have my sympathy and my prayers.

Peace,
Dante