Why Am I for nationa healthcare?

[seekerz]

It doesn’t matter how much people need it- it’s still going to run out when people try to get more than is available.

So people are simply going to go out there and purchase more gallbladder surgery because they can now afford it?

Some services will definitely be used more, especially primary care, but that would result in many services being used less as diseases get treated earlier or controlled better. Less invasive procedures, less use for expensive emergency services (presently overused by the uninsured)…could all result. Exactly what would go up and what would go down is what needs to predicted with some degree of accuracy.

 

[seekerz]

Who says the prices are artificially high? Insurance companies try to pay out as little as their contract allows them- that’s just how they stay afloat. And the price fixing I’ve been talking about was Obama’s ‘affordable insurance’, where insurance companies are forced to set rates his administration likes.- I haven’t heard plans about fixing the prices on actual care.

This is not equivalent to price fixing- and remember, many groups have opted out of medicare.

The change will occur when more people enter the system- if everyone, or a large portion of everyone, who isn’t in the system now enters it, those in the system already will have to accept that they will be receiving far less health care, or have to sit on waiting lists.

It. Doesn’t. Matter.
If people want more than is available, there is a shortage. At present, our health care system is at or near capacity. More people will put it ‘over capacity.’

The dollar value doesn’t matter- just the total amount of care available.

And eating isn’t optional either- but when there isn’t enough food to go around, you have to make tough choices.

No- it’s incredibly simple.
A certain number of doctors, hospitals, ect can treat a certain number of people
Tens of millions of Americans go untreated, by the statistics thrown around by reform proponents
Our health care system does not seem to have enough ‘slack’ to pick up all of those people.

I say that prices are artificially high. That would be a fair assumption when the same procedures and services cost way less in comparison to similar portions of the globe and when the actual payment for said services almost never reflects the official set price.

Your “there isn’t enough to go round” argument would make sense if health care was a static rather than dynamic resource. Much of the utilization of health resources is wasteful and unnecessary. With more people in the system, providers would be forced to be more efficient.

Also, more expensive care is often utilized by those with complications of diseases that didn’t get adequately treated/prevented at the primary care level. With more people able to afford primary care, that would change as well. So there is plenty of slack in the system if every stressed out guy with a headache isn’t sent for a CT scan.

I’m pretty familiar with the system and well aware that fear of lawsuits is not the only reason people get offered services they don’t need. When you have trained 8 or 10 years to do highly specialized stuff, you have a real motivation (conscious or not) to use your skills, especially if justification for reimbursement is largely dependent on your opinions. If there are more really sick people to treat, maybe there’ll be less temptation to overtreat…

All changes would not come at once. For example, the greater need for primary care docs would not be filled overnight, neither would the decrease in use of specialized services. But we can rise to the challenge rather than have this defeatist “can’t be helped” attitude toward health care.

 

[pathia]

Then your case is incredibly rare- I’ve been through more CT scans then I care to remember and was never waiting around for more than a few days.

Not rare for me. It’s been this way every time I need one (Once a year) for the past decade. I can plan ahead a bit, but it’s still incredibly variable. I can’t afford a ‘regular’ MRI, have to wait for training sessions.

 

[tjm190]

I say that prices are artificially high. That would be a fair assumption when the same procedures and services cost way less in comparison to similar portions of the globe and when the actual payment for said services almost never reflects the official set price.

Space in the Burj Khalifa is thousands of times more expensive then space elsewhere- does that mean that space is over priced? Or perhaps because there is a limited amount of it and huge desire for it, prices are raised until the amount demanded and amount available are similar.

Your “there isn’t enough to go round” argument would make sense if health care was a static rather than dynamic resource. Much of the utilization of health resources is wasteful and unnecessary. With more people in the system, providers would be forced to be more efficient.

"More efficient’ meaning providing second rate care- the quality of care that prompts the wealthy of other nations to travel here for their care.

Also, more expensive care is often utilized by those with complications of diseases that didn’t get adequately treated/prevented at the primary care level. With more people able to afford primary care, that would change as well. So there is plenty of slack in the system if every stressed out guy with a headache isn’t sent for a CT scan.

But when you give everyone a CT scan, then everyone has to wait months to get one.

I’m pretty familiar with the system and well aware that fear of lawsuits is not the only reason people get offered services they don’t need. When you have trained 8 or 10 years to do highly specialized stuff, you have a real motivation (conscious or not) to use your skills, especially if justification for reimbursement is largely dependent on your opinions. If there are more really sick people to treat, maybe there’ll be less temptation to overtreat…

If our higher cancer survival rate is a side effect of ‘over treatment’ perhaps we should keep it.

All changes would not come at once. For example, the greater need for primary care docs would not be filled overnight, neither would the decrease in use of specialized services. But we can rise to the challenge rather than have this defeatist “can’t be helped” attitude toward health care.

We need more specialists as well as more primary care doctors- or to lead healthier life styles.
We can help it- by providing incentives to enter those fields. Giving everyone lousy care rather than good care for some is not a fix, especially when the government is picking the winners and losers.

 

[jgault]

Not rare for me. It’s been this way every time I need one (Once a year) for the past decade. I can plan ahead a bit, but it’s still incredibly variable. I can’t afford a ‘regular’ MRI, have to wait for training sessions.

So, then your original post about having to wait 6 months for an MRI was very misleading. Your situation is incredibly rare.

I’m very sorry you have a condition that requires an MRI every year.

 

[seekerz]

Space in the Burj Khalifa is thousands of times more expensive then space elsewhere- does that mean that space is over priced? Or perhaps because there is a limited amount of it and huge desire for it, prices are raised until the amount demanded and amount available are similar.!

Burj Khailfa, wherever that is, likely does not qualify as similar parts of the globe.

"More efficient’ meaning providing second rate care- the quality of care that prompts the wealthy of other nations to travel here for their care.

More efficient means just that. It could mean, for example, scheduling multiple visits for the same patient on the same day and ordering all tests at that time to avoid duplication of tests: a MAJOR source of waste at present.

Why should I see Dr A today, have a CT of my chest done tomorrow, only to see Dr B next month and have a CT of the abdomen when I could have seen them both the same day and had a CT of the chest AND abdomen done as a single procedure, using less resources, personnel and money? Multiple ordering of the same blood tests is probably the worst contributor here.

So quit peddling the myth of efficiency being synonymous with second rate care. Massive waste is one of the reasons it seems like there is not enough health care to go around.

But when you give everyone a CT scan, then everyone has to wait months to get one.

Exactly my point. If all unnecessary tests were stopped today by some miraculous intervention, there would be plenty more to go around for those that really need it.

If our higher cancer survival rate is a side effect of ‘over treatment’ perhaps we should keep it.

I have no idea what you mean. You don’t need to overtreat to detect cancer early and manage it correctly.

I was referring to treatments offered that are not medically indicated by the patient’s condition. And no, every headache does not require a CT. That would be medically accurate even if free CT machines and technicians were raining from the skies.

We need more specialists as well as more primary care doctors- or to lead healthier life styles.

We can help it- by providing incentives to enter those fields. Giving everyone lousy care rather than good care for some is not a fix, especially when the government is picking the winners and losers.

Primary care doctors are badly outnumbered by specialists and they are the ones largely responsible for ‘health maintenance’ care. Giving good care for some and lousy care for others is just as unacceptable as the opposite.

Besides the scenario you portray is simplistic. It’s not like there are these masses of people not getting any health care at all who will come rushing in to grab slices of the pie.

Actually, serious health conditions of the uninsured are to a large extent already being treated, just in a very inefficient way and expensive way (in many cases, emergency care). If these people had regular primary care they might not have even needed the costly treatment they eventually MUST by law be given in hospitals around the country. So the focus should be on providing good primary care for all, reserving expensive specialized care for all who really need it.

The spectre of an omnipresent government turning doctors into brainless robots who would withhold medically necessary care on the say-so of some bureaucrat will surely be raised. That is the one topic I think has had too much airplay and which I do not think even worthy of further comment. People will be believe what they prefer to believe, facts, commonsense and reality notwithstanding.

 

[praise_Jesus_1]

In Canada we generally do not have all of these uneccesary tests but people still need to wait a long time. I cut my thumb badly on the weekend and waited in the emergency room for 4 and a half hours.

The slogan for our health care is “Everything is free, but nothing is available”

But in reality it isn’t free. I pay a significant amount of taxes with a lot of it going towards our health care system. I myself am on no medications and rarely visit the doctor. Having to wait 4 and a half hours to get your thumb glued is a bit crazy.

I am not 100% for privatized health care but a public system can propose problems. I think a better solution can be found.

The fact that abortion is funded through the public system is absolutely apalling.

 

[seekerz]

In Canada we generally do not have all of these uneccesary tests but people still need to wait a long time. I cut my thumb badly on the weekend and waited in the emergency room for 4 and a half hours.

The slogan for our health care is “Everything is free, but nothing is available”

But in reality it isn’t free. I pay a significant amount of taxes with a lot of it going towards our health care system. I myself am on no medications and rarely visit the doctor. Having to wait 4 and a half hours to get your thumb glued is a bit crazy.

I am not 100% for privatized health care but a public system can propose problems. I think a better solution can be found.

The fact that abortion is funded through the public system is absolutely apalling.

Every system has its drawbacks, make no mistake. Your wait may or may not have had to do with the fact that yours in a public health system. Four hour waits are pretty common here for minor ailments.

As to the funding of abortion, I’m not sure what you mean. BTW private insurance companies may also fund abortion (even if they don’t necessarily advertise the fact) it’s just more of a political hot potato when taxes are used for payment instead of premiums (ironically from some of the same taxpayers).

 

[pathia]

So, then your original post about having to wait 6 months for an MRI was very misleading. Your situation is incredibly rare.

I’m very sorry you have a condition that requires an MRI every year.

Howso? The free clinic I go to said, “You need to get another MRI” and it has been six months since I signed up for one. What is misleading about that? It REQUIRES one every year yes, but I only manage to get one about every three, ussually.

 

[praise_Jesus_1]

Every system has its drawbacks, make no mistake. Your wait may or may not have had to do with the fact that yours in a public health system. Four hour waits are pretty common here for minor ailments.

As to the funding of abortion, I’m not sure what you mean. BTW private insurance companies may also fund abortion (even if they don’t necessarily advertise the fact) it’s just more of a political hot potato when taxes are used for payment instead of premiums (ironically from some of the same taxpayers).

thanks seekerz.

I guess I was thinking or hoping that there would be private plans available where abortion was not covered.

I do think there should be changes made to the American system from what I’ve heard. As well I think here in Canada we need some changes too.

 

[pathia]

thanks seekerz.

I guess I was thinking or hoping that there would be private plans available where abortion was not covered.

I do think there should be changes made to the American system from what I’ve heard. As well I think here in Canada we need some changes too.

Pretty sure basically every single healthcare I’ve ever seen offered by a public company offers abortion services. From purely a money standpoint and not moral/ethical, it’s cheaper to abort for more short term profits.

 

[cynic]

I still haven’t figured what the far right liber-conservatives here really think.

Idealy, should basic health care be affordable for everyone who works, or should only the successful middle class have access?

 

[NotWorthy]

I still haven’t figured what the far right liber-conservatives here really think.

Idealy, should basic health care be affordable for everyone who works, or should only the successful middle class have access?

Who would disagree that healthcare should be affordable for everyone who works (or everyone working or not). Who’s arguing against that?!?!?

The problem is, this healthcare plan is NOT going to make healthcare more affordable for everyone who works.

How so? In the plan brought forth by Obama, there are 35 new taxes. And we are going to pay these taxes into the system for two years before there are any benefits from the plan implemented.

More Affordable? I think not.

 

[NotWorthy]

Howso? The free clinic I go to said, “You need to get another MRI” and it has been six months since I signed up for one. What is misleading about that? It REQUIRES one every year yes, but I only manage to get one about every three, ussually.

OK, Pathia. I mean no disrespect, but I may be speaking out of total ignorance (it certainly won’t be the first time…)

The free clinic is the one that orders your MRI’s and you have to wait for 6 months (and longer for the MRI). Am I correct in assuming that all this is public funded healthcare - free clinic and the MRI?

 

[pathia]

OK, Pathia. I mean no disrespect, but I may be speaking out of total ignorance (it certainly won’t be the first time…)

The free clinic is the one that orders your MRI’s and you have to wait for 6 months (and longer for the MRI). Am I correct in assuming that all this is public funded healthcare - free clinic and the MRI?

No, you are incorrect. Clinic is funded by donations and doctors donating time, MRI’s is from when the techs get trained.

I am not on medicaid/care, if that’s what you think. I do not qualify.

 

[Joe_Kloba]

Hmm no answers. Everyone must agree that I’m right then!

Christ asked us to love our neighbor as ourself. As in the Good Samarathan, he cared for the stranger and made sure he was taken care of.
If we look back at the Papal Encyclicals, even back to Pope Leo XIII and his Rerum Novarum, we find some of the reasons for the State to act in the common good.
Pope Pius XI said it was clear that unregulated competition had succumbed to its own inherent tendencies to the point of practically destroying itself. It had given rise to a great accumulation of wealth, and, in the process, concentrated a despotic economic power in the hands of a few “who for the most part are not the owners, but only the trustees and directors of invested funds, which they administer at their own good pleasure.” Hence, as the Pope remarked so discerningly,“economic domination has taken the place of the open market. Unbridled ambition for domination has succeeded the desire for gain; the whole economic regime has become hard, cruel and relentless in frightful measure.” As a consequence, even the public authority was becoming the tool of plutocracy, which was thus gaining a stranglehold on the entire world. As for the State, its whole raison d’etre is the realization of the common good in the temporal order. It cannot, therefore, hold aloof from economic matters. On the contrary, it must do all in its power to promote the production of a sufficient supply of material goods, “the use of which is necessary for the practice of virtue.” It has also the duty to protect the rights of all its people, and particularly of its weaker members, the workers, women and children. It can never be right for the State to shirk its obligation of working actively for the betterment of the condition of the workingman.
Pius XI presented these ideas May 15, 1931 in his Encyclical Quadragesimo Anno.If we look at the Insurance Industry today do we see the same greed and lack of responsibility for the common good?
We have a duty and obligation to support efforts to right this wrong for the sake of the common good, as Christ has asked us to do.

 

[NotWorthy]

Christ asked us to love our neighbor as ourself. As in the Good Samarathan, he cared for the stranger and made sure he was taken care of.
If we look back at the Papal Encyclicals, even back to Pope Leo XIII and his Rerum Novarum, we find some of the reasons for the State to act in the common good.
Pope Pius XI said it was clear that unregulated competition had succumbed to its own inherent tendencies to the point of practically destroying itself. It had given rise to a great accumulation of wealth, and, in the process, concentrated a despotic economic power in the hands of a few “who for the most part are not the owners, but only the trustees and directors of invested funds, which they administer at their own good pleasure.” Hence, as the Pope remarked so discerningly,“economic domination has taken the place of the open market. Unbridled ambition for domination has succeeded the desire for gain; the whole economic regime has become hard, cruel and relentless in frightful measure.” As a consequence, even the public authority was becoming the tool of plutocracy, which was thus gaining a stranglehold on the entire world. As for the State, its whole raison d’etre is the realization of the common good in the temporal order. It cannot, therefore, hold aloof from economic matters. On the contrary, it must do all in its power to promote the production of a sufficient supply of material goods, “the use of which is necessary for the practice of virtue.” It has also the duty to protect the rights of all its people, and particularly of its weaker members, the workers, women and children. It can never be right for the State to shirk its obligation of working actively for the betterment of the condition of the workingman.
Pius XI presented these ideas May 15, 1931 in his Encyclical Quadragesimo Anno.If we look at the Insurance Industry today do we see the same greed and lack of responsibility for the common good?
We have a duty and obligation to support efforts to right this wrong for the sake of the common good, as Christ has asked us to do.

I think all Christian would agree with this statement.

However, not all Christians think the Government’s Healthcare Reform Bill will help this matter.

 

[wabrams]

Howso? The free clinic I go to said, “You need to get another MRI” and it has been six months since I signed up for one. What is misleading about that? It REQUIRES one every year yes, but I only manage to get one about every three, ussually.

It’s misleading b/c it implies there are a shortage of MR machines in your area compared to the number of people needing the scan. When you add in the fact you are waiting six months b/c you will be a test patient, then the situation doesn’t seem as extraordinary.

 

[pathia]

It’s misleading b/c it implies there are a shortage of MR machines in your area compared to the number of people needing the scan. When you add in the fact you are waiting six months b/c you will be a test patient, then the situation doesn’t seem as extraordinary.

There is no shortage of MRI’s, there’s a shortage of ones that I can AFFORD. My pituitary is riddled with tumors, if they ever go wild (and they have in the past) I could die. Without monitoring of it, I’m a ticking bomb. Basically my laundry list of conditions all spiral out from this root problem.

 

[jgault]

Howso? The free clinic I go to said, “You need to get another MRI” and it has been six months since I signed up for one. What is misleading about that? It REQUIRES one every year yes, but I only manage to get one about every three, ussually.

It was misleading because you didn’t tell us that you had to wait for MRI training sessions to get an MRI due to your specific situation. Whether intentional or not, by excluding that fact, you gave the impression that everyone had to wait 6 months to get an MRI.