Why Am I for nationa healthcare?

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It was misleading because you didn’t tell us that you had to wait for MRI training sessions to get an MRI due to your specific situation. Whether intentional or not, by excluding that fact, you gave the impression that everyone had to wait 6 months to get an MRI.
It’s well known on this thread by now I have no insurance. I’ve probably posted over a hundred times on this thread, I’m not going to reiterate my entire story every single bloody time I say anything. Besides, I’ve re-read my statement a dozen times, nowhere did I every say ‘Everyone waits six months’. I said I have to wait six months. You are putting words into my statement that don’t exist. Anyone who doesn’t have insurance is likely to have the same line I do and there’s millions of us. So even if I was speaking to more than myself, there’s still a ton of people in my situation, it is not ‘unique’.
 
Burj Khailfa, wherever that is, likely does not qualify as similar parts of the globe.
What makes the U.S. and European nations similar? We are worlds apart in our obesity rate and how much care we expect/ how fast we expect it.
More efficient means just that. It could mean, for example, scheduling multiple visits for the same patient on the same day and ordering all tests at that time to avoid duplication of tests: a MAJOR source of waste at present.
I suppose you have statistics to support that? Government systems have a track record of ruthless inefficiency, in any event.
Why should I see Dr A today, have a CT of my chest done tomorrow, only to see Dr B next month and have a CT of the abdomen when I could have seen them both the same day and had a CT of the chest AND abdomen done as a single procedure, using less resources, personnel and money? Multiple ordering of the same blood tests is probably the worst contributor here.
Again, unless this accounts for say, 20% of medical procedures it won;t at all cancel out bringing everyone else into the system.
So quit peddling the myth of efficiency being synonymous with second rate care. Massive waste is one of the reasons it seems like there is not enough health care to go around.
Statistics, please? Those who can afford to in other nations seem to be willing to spend great deals of money to avoid the ‘efficiency’ their nations have created.
Exactly my point. If all unnecessary tests were stopped today by some miraculous intervention, there would be plenty more to go around for those that really need it.
But how much? And would this be cancelled out by our government’s clear ability to drown anything and everything in bureaucracy?
I have no idea what you mean. You don’t need to overtreat to detect cancer early and manage it correctly.
In America, we run lots of tests on everyone in the system. Tests catch cancer early. Cancer caught early gets treated better. Furthermore, a system that only accepts those who can pay rather than everyone means that those who can pay don’t sit on waiting lists for months. This means that should you be worried about that lump on your child’s leg, you can get him to a doctor before it spreads (if you’re insured)
I was referring to treatments offered that are not medically indicated by the patient’s condition. And no, every headache does not require a CT. That would be medically accurate even if free CT machines and technicians were raining from the skies.
That’s not your call, that’s not the government’s call, that’s the doctor’s call. But when the government holds all the cards, they’ll make it their call. So that guy with a headache will go home. Will he develop this, that or the other and die? Who knows.
Primary care doctors are badly outnumbered by specialists and they are the ones largely responsible for ‘health maintenance’ care. Giving good care for some and lousy care for others is just as unacceptable as the opposite.
I’d rather have a good system I had to fight my way into than a 2nd rate system that there was no escape from.
Besides the scenario you portray is simplistic. It’s not like there are these masses of people not getting any health care at all who will come rushing in to grab slices of the pie.
They’ll be consuming significantly more healthcare than they do now, yes? Otherwise, what’s the point? It’s not my side that talks about how many people we need to bring into the system.
Actually, serious health conditions of the uninsured are to a large extent already being treated, just in a very inefficient way and expensive way (in many cases, emergency care). If these people had regular primary care they might not have even needed the costly treatment they eventually MUST by law be given in hospitals around the country. So the focus should be on providing good primary care for all, reserving expensive specialized care for all who really need it.
Good primary care is impossible when an actuary or regulator is put in charge of whether or not a test is necessary.
The spectre of an omnipresent government turning doctors into brainless robots who would withhold medically necessary care on the say-so of some bureaucrat will surely be raised. That is the one topic I think has had too much airplay and which I do not think even worthy of further comment. People will be believe what they prefer to believe, facts, commonsense and reality notwithstanding.
The government will not spend unlimited money on every patient. The government will not run unlimited tests on every patient. There will be people deciding how much is too much. We will not be able to sue the government or switch coverage plans. The insurance companies have contracts they have to follow. The government does not.
 
What makes the U.S. and European nations similar? We are worlds apart in our obesity rate and how much care we expect/ how fast we expect it.

I suppose you have statistics to support that? Government systems have a track record of ruthless inefficiency, in any event.
Again, unless this accounts for say, 20% of medical procedures it won;t at all cancel out bringing everyone else into the system.

Statistics, please? Those who can afford to in other nations seem to be willing to spend great deals of money to avoid the ‘efficiency’ their nations have created.

But how much? And would this be cancelled out by our government’s clear ability to drown anything and everything in bureaucracy?

In America, we run lots of tests on everyone in the system. Tests catch cancer early. Cancer caught early gets treated better. Furthermore, a system that only accepts those who can pay rather than everyone means that those who can pay don’t sit on waiting lists for months. This means that should you be worried about that lump on your child’s leg, you can get him to a doctor before it spreads (if you’re insured)

That’s not your call, that’s not the government’s call, that’s the doctor’s call. But when the government holds all the cards, they’ll make it their call. So that guy with a headache will go home. Will he develop this, that or the other and die? Who knows.

I’d rather have a good system I had to fight my way into than a 2nd rate system that there was no escape from.

They’ll be consuming significantly more healthcare than they do now, yes? Otherwise, what’s the point? It’s not my side that talks about how many people we need to bring into the system.

Good primary care is impossible when an actuary or regulator is put in charge of whether or not a test is necessary.

The government will not spend unlimited money on every patient. The government will not run unlimited tests on every patient. There will be people deciding how much is too much. We will not be able to sue the government or switch coverage plans. The insurance companies have contracts they have to follow. The government does not.
I’ve adequately dealt already with most of the points you bring up, so I’ll ask only this: name me one payer (insuring entity) in the US whose practices are not governed by a contract.
 
I’ve adequately dealt already with most of the points you bring up, so I’ll ask only this: name me one payer (insuring entity) in the US whose practices are not governed by a contract.
You have not shown that a significant portion of our health care goes to waste.
You have not shown that the drive to keep costs down will not have a negative effect of preventative care, particularly that of cancer (catching cancer early rather than prevention of course)
You have not shown that the waiting times created by an overburdened system will not lead to increased deaths.
You failed to clarify what you meant by ‘similar areas.’
 
You have not shown that a significant portion of our health care goes to waste.
You have not shown that the drive to keep costs down will not have a negative effect of preventative care, particularly that of cancer (catching cancer early rather than prevention of course)
You haven’t answered my most recent question but I’ll allow you some leeway.

Cancer screening (which is how cancer is caught early) is an important part of preventive care but it is not necessarily a question of running “lots of tests” as your earlier post implied. There is a schedule, set by doctors (not bureaucrats), based on scientific studies, which outlines what needs to be done when. So if you have a normal colon screen this year for example, unless a problem arises before then that warrants one, you will not need another within 10 years.

It is a misconception to imagine that cutting out scans and tests which are not medically necessary, will cause cancer rates to increase. In other words, you are not at less risk of cancer the more CT scans you have (you may indeed be at more risk of cancer from too frequent radiation exposure).
You have not shown that the waiting times created by an overburdened system will not lead to increased deaths.
Since that is your prediction, the onus of proving it should lie with you.

Human resources and medical resources are not static entities and, especially since reform is going to be instituted over time, not immediately, there is certainly time to make some adjustments in preparation for a larger patient population.

‘Survival of the richest’ is not a moral solution.
You failed to clarify what you meant by ‘similar areas.’
Sorry, other industrialized nations.
 
There is no shortage of MRI’s, there’s a shortage of ones that I can AFFORD. My pituitary is riddled with tumors, if they ever go wild (and they have in the past) I could die. Without monitoring of it, I’m a ticking bomb. Basically my laundry list of conditions all spiral out from this root problem.
I wish you lived near here; there is a phenomenal neurosurgeon who would either work out a steep discount for your surgery or would do it for free. Great guy, brilliant surgeon; just got back from Haiti.
 
You haven’t answered my most recent question but I’ll allow you some leeway.
I’d prefer we go in order. Aka, you address the issues I raised rather than skipping them before I answer your question.
Cancer screening (which is how cancer is caught early) is an important part of preventive care but it is not necessarily a question of running “lots of tests” as your earlier post implied. There is a schedule, set by doctors (not bureaucrats), based on scientific studies, which outlines what needs to be done when. So if you have a normal colon screen this year for example, unless a problem arises before then that warrants one, you will not need another within 10 years.
These schedules are set for cancers that the individual is highly at risk for- there is no scheduled sarcoma or leukemia check.
It is a misconception to imagine that cutting out scans and tests which are not medically necessary, will cause cancer rates to increase. In other words, you are not at less risk of cancer the more CT scans you have (you may indeed be at more risk of cancer from too frequent radiation exposure).
Despite America’s notably less healthy life style, we have the world’s best survival rate for most cancers. I would assume this has to do with the way we treat cancer. Either we are willing to wait longer before declaring someone ‘terminal’ and moving resources elsewhere, or we have someway of assuring that the cancers we fight are weaker. aka, early detection.
If you think the reduction in repeated procedures will be significant, I’d love to see the data that led you to this conclusion.
Since that is your prediction, the onus of proving it should lie with you.
Human resources and medical resources are not static entities and, especially since reform is going to be instituted over time, not immediately, there is certainly time to make some adjustments in preparation for a larger patient population.
‘Survival of the richest’ is not a moral solution.
I provided a case for it- the number of people in the system at any given time can not be increased without expanding the system. However, more people will be trying to get in. Thus, others will have to wait. Their conditions are likely to worsen with time.

Even the obscenely high wages paid to most specialists has failed to create enough of them- if the government wishes to subsidize the education of our doctors, that’s fine. Increasing the patient load will do nothing to solve this problem.
Sorry, other industrialized nations.
Dubai is an industrialized nation, why should space there be so much more expensive than space here? America is world’s apart from other industrialized nations in terms of the healthiness of our lifestyles.

And for your question- All insurance providers have contracts with their patients that determine when they are obligated to pay.
 
It was misleading because you didn’t tell us that you had to wait for MRI training sessions to get an MRI due to your specific situation. Whether intentional or not, by excluding that fact, you gave the impression that everyone had to wait 6 months to get an MRI.
Oh jeez splitting hairs! More excuses.
 
… Whether or not someone can pay for something has a strong effect on how long it takes to get it. That isn’t splitting hairs in the slightest.
But it is worshiping money above God.
 
I wish you lived near here; there is a phenomenal neurosurgeon who would either work out a steep discount for your surgery or would do it for free. Great guy, brilliant surgeon; just got back from Haiti.
I can’t have brain surgery due to my bleeding issues. I would have an aneurysm.
 
Giving things to people who pay for them is not worshiping money.
This includes one’s own life then? I wasn’t aware it was a thing that had monetary value, I’d always been taught it was beyond terms of money.
 
This includes one’s own life then? I wasn’t aware it was a thing that had monetary value, I’d always been taught it was beyond terms of money.
We have a certain amount of care available- we choose to divvy it up by who can pay. No other method seems to be overwhelming more nice.
 
We have a certain amount of care available- we choose to divvy it up by who can pay. No other method seems to be overwhelming more nice.
Fair enough, my main problem is when people try to state there is NOT rationing going on now, when that clearly isn’t the case. Rationing is done by money. I am dying, because I do not have enough money. I am too sick to make enough money to pay for it, so it’s a death-spiral, literally, in this case.
 
I’d prefer we go in order. Aka, you address the issues I raised rather than skipping them before I answer your question.

These schedules are set for cancers that the individual is highly at risk for- there is no scheduled sarcoma or leukemia check.
Your are mistaken. Screening is for all people of a particular demographic (e.g. all women over 21, all people over 50 etc), though frequency or type of test may be determined by level of risk. You are correct in that there is no sarcoma or leukemia screening schedule but what does that have to do with overuse of medical tests?

Politics aside, screening schedules are set up based on scientific data AND taking into account cost-effectiveness. Medial professionals consider how many times a certain test has to be run before a disease is detected or a life is saved. They also look at how accurate the test is, how risky and how expensive. These, and similar factors, determine whether it qualifies as an effective screening test and whether it should be instituted as part of standard medical care. They also determine on who and how often it should be done.

Individual doctors have always been expected to adhere to these and other basic guidelines (even though compliance isn’t always what it should be); standards of care in medicine are not determined by the individual doctor any more than laws are determined by individual lawyers.

Aside from screening people with no outward indication of disease, medical tests are also used to find the diagnosis when someone is sick as well as to determine how well they are responding to treatment. That’s called diagnostic testing and here the decision to test is based on the individual doctor’s findings or opinions. Still, he/she has to provide a justification for ordering a particular test (to the patient, as well as to the insurance company). It’s easy to overuse diagnostic testing, particularly if malpractice is a major fear, because in medicine, asking ‘what if’ generally makes for a much longer list of possiblities than ‘what’s likely’.
Despite America’s notably less healthy life style, we have the world’s best survival rate for most cancers. I would assume this has to do with the way we treat cancer. Either we are willing to wait longer before declaring someone ‘terminal’ and moving resources elsewhere, or we have someway of assuring that the cancers we fight are weaker. aka, early detection.
If you think the reduction in repeated procedures will be significant, I’d love to see the data that led you to this conclusion.
Not sure what your question is here: “if I think the reduction in repeated procedures will be significant”, but I’ll refer you to my explanation of screening above. Finding cancer early is generally a result of screening unless symptoms arise early. Screening frequency is set as described above.

Yes, increasing the patient population will increase the demand for screening and the need for resources. It will also decrease the proportion of people needing treatment for complications of the diseases that are screened for (e.g less need for amputations, less incidence of blindness, if diabetes is caught and adequate treatment begun earlier).
I provided a case for it- the number of people in the system at any given time can not be increased without expanding the system. However, more people will be trying to get in. Thus, others will have to wait. Their conditions are likely to worsen with time.
Even the obscenely high wages paid to most specialists has failed to create enough of them- if the government wishes to subsidize the education of our doctors, that’s fine. Increasing the patient load will do nothing to solve this problem.
So why not expand the system? Sure there will be growing pains but what’s the alternative? Accepting that the less financially well off go without adequate care?
It is likely that our medical resources for mother/child care would be inundated if every child conceived was brought to term - is this a reason to not aim for that goal?
Dubai is an industrialized nation, why should space there be so much more expensive than space here? America is world’s apart from other industrialized nations in terms of the healthiness of our lifestyles.
Point taken. Real estate isn’t quite the same as brain surgery though. Don’t know about the last part of your statement either. How do you measure ‘worlds apart’?
And for your question- All insurance providers have contracts with their patients that determine when they are obligated to pay.
It’s just that one of your earlier statements seemed to imply that only the actions of private insurance companies were governed by contracts and government was exempt.
 
What type of bleeding issue do you have that causes aneurysms?
I’m covered in bruises, welts, cuts. Just bumping into a coffee table slightly can leave a black bruise for weeks. All of my tissue is extremely prone to bruising and bleeding. This would include anything inside my brain.

The last time brain surgery was explored as an option, I got the opinions of multiple neurosurgeons and they said my chances of surviving were below 50%. I don’t care for those odds.
 
I’m covered in bruises, welts, cuts. Just bumping into a coffee table slightly can leave a black bruise for weeks. All of my tissue is extremely prone to bruising and bleeding. This would include anything inside my brain.

The last time brain surgery was explored as an option, I got the opinions of multiple neurosurgeons and they said my chances of surviving were below 50%. I don’t care for those odds.
Interesting, b/c I’ve never heard that being related to an aneurysm.
 
Interesting, b/c I’ve never heard that being related to an aneurysm.
My arteries and veins bruise/swell and break easily. If I have brain surgery, what do you think might-possibly happen when they’re poking about in there? I suppose it might be more proper to say that the surgery could cause a stroke, which would kill me. I’ve already had one. I’m not a doctor and I don’t see them often, all I know is they told me there was very, very, very high chance of dying on the table, or dying in the days right after any sort of brain surgery.
 
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