A
aspawloski4th
Guest
Because she doesn’t conform to many norms. If you knew her story, it would add up easily.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.
P
pathia
Guest
I never said I get no help. I get emergency services. I get loan assistance. I see doctors, doctors aren’t so much a problem, it’s the tests and drugs they need to do to treat me that I cannot negotiate a lower price on. Doctors are not mean people, they’re always willing to work with you. Drug companies and labtesting companies are much more rigid.Yes, I know. That’s one of the reasons I said it doesn’t add up. With pathia, there is always some reason why suggested sources of help don’t apply…hence my suspicion.
Also, keep in mind you are reading posts that cover periods of my life spanning well over a decade.
C
cynic
Guest
Why doesn’t your government just help pay the premiums of those who genuinely can’t afford them? In other words a means-tested subsidy.
M
mary1173
Guest
Preventative care is what is needed most in our nation. Without preventative care that provides people with a way to see the doctor before it becomes an emergency is critical. Make it legislation that the doctor’s must do honest work for an honest fee. Don’t charge $1500 per MRI if it only costs $300. To make the doctors take a cut in pay is the answer to some of it. Make generic drugs more readily available, not enough insurance plans cover the necessities, dental, vision, E.R. costs make it more profitable to keep someone from ending up in the hospital to begin with! And deny no one access to affordable healthcare…] Don’t let Big Pharma decide the cost of medications. Put checks and balances in line so that no one need die from something that can be treated.] and above all, Make forming monopolies on healthcare insurance stop. Costs go up when people don’t protest the wrong done them by their insurance companies, doctors, or the quality of the care they receive from the hospitals and medical professionals. Reward doctors for keeping you as healthy as possible. Not just refusing to put you in the hospital so they can claim that you don’t need care and are paid for your ‘‘health’’ because you weren’t admitted even if it was crucial you be in the hospital.You just don’t get it. In my article I posted the link, they lost it all just for a brain anurysm. To save his life the family’s humanity was stripped of them. Even though they did everything right untill then. In places like Britain that wouldn’t of happened.
Make the medical profession accountable make the government not reward them for sloppy work. Make the government repeal its position on the right to sue if someone dies in the '‘care’ of the doctor they have.
W
wabrams
Guest
Here’s something to ponder: our government has enough revenue coming in via taxes that it could easily fund a national healthcare system that would provide excellent quality healthcare to all, not bringing it down like in countries such as Canada. The problem is we have these politicians who make a career out of being a senator or reprsentative. To keep their “job,” they blow tax payer money faster than a 10 yr olds allowance in a comic book store, funding little pet projects or throwing a bone back home to the voters to keep them appeased. You wanna fix a great many things in this country, start with two very simple things: term limits and pass bills that only do one thing with absolutely no earmarks. You need money for a bridge to be built back in your home state, then you write a bill for it, etc.Why doesn’t your government just help pay the premiums of those who genuinely can’t afford them? In other words a means-tested subsidy.
M
mary1173
Guest
exactly…:shrug:what are ya gonna do? We’re all in the same hole ridden boat…Here’s something to ponder: our government has enough revenue coming in via taxes that it could easily fund a national healthcare system that would provide excellent quality healthcare to all, not bringing it down like in countries such as Canada. The problem is we have these politicians who make a career out of being a senator or reprsentative. To keep their “job,” they blow tax payer money faster than a 10 yr olds allowance in a comic book store, funding little pet projects or throwing a bone back home to the voters to keep them appeased. You wanna fix a great many things in this country, start with two very simple things: term limits and pass bills that only do one thing with absolutely no earmarks. You need money for a bridge to be built back in your home state, then you write a bill for it, etc.
W
wabrams
Guest
First off, MRI’s start around $2300 a scan plus the fee for the radiologist to read it. It doesn’t cost $300 to do one. The cost of the machines alone is several million; upkeep on them is expensive. And heaven forbid if one completely shuts down, like in a powerloss, etc; it costs several thousand to get one back-up in running over a 24 to 48 hour period. You just don’t flip a switch.Make it legislation that the doctor’s must do honest work for an honest fee. Don’t charge $1500 per MRI if it only costs $300.
I think most doctors charge a fair fee. Let me ask you something: if you spent a minimum of 10 years in school AFTER high school, would you not want to be rewarded? Do you realize that your surgeon, radiolost or cardiologist has spent for than 15 years in school AFTEr high school?To make the doctors take a cut in pay is the answer to some of it.
Yeah, some of it is overpriced. Just keep in mind though that a rather large chunk of that cost goes back into research and development of new drugs.Don’t let Big Pharma decide the cost of medications.
Explain, please.Put checks and balances in line so that no one need die from something that can be treated
So you would rather have a government monopoly?and above all, Make forming monopolies on healthcare insurance stop.
What are you talking about?Reward doctors for keeping you as healthy as possible. Not just refusing to put you in the hospital so they can claim that you don’t need care and are paid for your ‘‘health’’ because you weren’t admitted even if it was crucial you be in the hospital.
Ever heard of a malpractice lawsuit?Make the medical profession accountable make the government not reward them for sloppy work. Make the government repeal its position on the right to sue if someone dies in the '‘care’ of the doctor they have.
M
markbrumbaugh
Guest
My comments have been misunderstood.
I am not against charity and in fact believe it to be my moral obligation.
I am against assigning that responsibility to the Government for whatever righteous sounding reasons. The problem with shirking that responsibility is first of all, obviously putting your obligations in the hands of another. Secondly, I firmly believe that a beauracracy and a political body will seek actions that are designed foremost to further its own agenda and any “good” that comes out of it is secondary. The entire liberal wing has pitted rich against poor and haves from have nots for generations and every solution they have come up with (social security, medicare, war on poverty, welfare) has done very little to solve anything, while burdening our society with an increasing debt and lack of productivity.
In other words, rich guy has medical insurance. I don’t have medical insurance. I want medical insurance. Oh, look, there are enough of us that we can vote someone into office who will get it for me. Person in office will mortgage the lives of our grandchildren and take more and more of the working person’s property to continue to provide more and more to his voting contingency. He doesn’t care if he bankrupts the country, redistribution of wealth is his ticket.
This is not right. It is stealing, it is coveting another’s goods. It has caused the failure of every democracy invented and is well on the way to destroying what we had, which used to be a republic. It leads to godless socialism. Read history, look at the world.
I welcome debate but quit condeming me personally for having the gumption to point out what is obvious to me.
It was our own original sin that caused us to have to work to care for ourselves.
PS, the following is from the USCCB webite:
2 Thessalonians
Chapter 3
1
Finally, brothers, pray for us, so that the word of the Lord may speed forward and be glorified, as it did among you,
2
and that we may be delivered from perverse and wicked people, for not all have faith.
3
But the Lord is faithful; he will strengthen you and guard you from the evil one.
4
We are confident of you in the Lord that what we instruct you, you (both) are doing and will continue to do.
5
May the Lord direct your hearts to the love of God and to the endurance of Christ.
6
We instruct you, brothers, in the name of (our) Lord Jesus Christ,to shun any brother who conducts himself in a disorderly way and not according to the tradition they received from us. 2
7
For you know how one must imitate us. For we did not act in a disorderly way among you,
8
nor did we eat food received free from anyone. On the contrary, in toil and drudgery, night and day we worked, so as not to burden any of you.
9
Not that we do not have the right. Rather, we wanted to present ourselves as a model for you, so that you might imitate us.
10
In fact, when we were with you, we instructed you that if anyone was unwilling to work, neither should that one eat.
11
We hear that some are conducting themselves among you in a disorderly way, by not keeping busy but minding the business ofothers.
12
Such people we instruct and urge in the Lord Jesus Christ to work quietly and to eat their own food.
13
But you, brothers, do not be remiss in doing good.
14
If anyone does not obey our word as expressed in this letter, take note of this person not to associate with him, that he may be put to shame.
15
Do not regard him as an enemy but admonish him as a brother.
16
May the Lord of peace himself give you peace at all times and in every way. The Lord be with all of you.
17
This greeting is in my own hand, Paul’s. This is the sign in every letter; this is how I write.
18
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with all of you.
1 [1-18] The final chapter urges the Thessalonians to pray for Paul and his colleagues (2 Thes 3:1-2) and reiterates confidence in the Thessalonians (2 Thes 3:3-5), while admonishing them about a specific problem in their community that has grown out of the intense eschatological speculation, namely, not to work but to become instead disorderly busybodies (2 Thes 3:6-15). A benediction (2 Thes 3:16) and postscript in Paul’s own hand round out the letter. On 2 Thes 3:17-18, cf the note on 2 Thes 2:2.
2 [6] Some members of the community, probably because they regarded the parousia as imminent or the new age of the Lord to be already here (2 Thes 2:2), had apparently ceased to work for a living. The disciplinary problem they posed could be rooted in distorted thinking about Paul’s own teaching (cf 1 Thes 2:16; 3:3-4; 5:4-5) or, more likely, in a forged letter (2 Thes 2:2) and the type of teaching dealt with in 2 Thes 2:1-15. The apostle’s own moral teaching, reflected in his selfless labors for others, was rooted in a deep doctrinal concern for the gospel message (cf 1 Thes 2:3-10).
I am not against charity and in fact believe it to be my moral obligation.
I am against assigning that responsibility to the Government for whatever righteous sounding reasons. The problem with shirking that responsibility is first of all, obviously putting your obligations in the hands of another. Secondly, I firmly believe that a beauracracy and a political body will seek actions that are designed foremost to further its own agenda and any “good” that comes out of it is secondary. The entire liberal wing has pitted rich against poor and haves from have nots for generations and every solution they have come up with (social security, medicare, war on poverty, welfare) has done very little to solve anything, while burdening our society with an increasing debt and lack of productivity.
In other words, rich guy has medical insurance. I don’t have medical insurance. I want medical insurance. Oh, look, there are enough of us that we can vote someone into office who will get it for me. Person in office will mortgage the lives of our grandchildren and take more and more of the working person’s property to continue to provide more and more to his voting contingency. He doesn’t care if he bankrupts the country, redistribution of wealth is his ticket.
This is not right. It is stealing, it is coveting another’s goods. It has caused the failure of every democracy invented and is well on the way to destroying what we had, which used to be a republic. It leads to godless socialism. Read history, look at the world.
I welcome debate but quit condeming me personally for having the gumption to point out what is obvious to me.
It was our own original sin that caused us to have to work to care for ourselves.
PS, the following is from the USCCB webite:
2 Thessalonians
Chapter 3
1
Finally, brothers, pray for us, so that the word of the Lord may speed forward and be glorified, as it did among you,
2
and that we may be delivered from perverse and wicked people, for not all have faith.
3
But the Lord is faithful; he will strengthen you and guard you from the evil one.
4
We are confident of you in the Lord that what we instruct you, you (both) are doing and will continue to do.
5
May the Lord direct your hearts to the love of God and to the endurance of Christ.
6
We instruct you, brothers, in the name of (our) Lord Jesus Christ,to shun any brother who conducts himself in a disorderly way and not according to the tradition they received from us. 2
7
For you know how one must imitate us. For we did not act in a disorderly way among you,
8
nor did we eat food received free from anyone. On the contrary, in toil and drudgery, night and day we worked, so as not to burden any of you.
9
Not that we do not have the right. Rather, we wanted to present ourselves as a model for you, so that you might imitate us.
10
In fact, when we were with you, we instructed you that if anyone was unwilling to work, neither should that one eat.
11
We hear that some are conducting themselves among you in a disorderly way, by not keeping busy but minding the business ofothers.
12
Such people we instruct and urge in the Lord Jesus Christ to work quietly and to eat their own food.
13
But you, brothers, do not be remiss in doing good.
14
If anyone does not obey our word as expressed in this letter, take note of this person not to associate with him, that he may be put to shame.
15
Do not regard him as an enemy but admonish him as a brother.
16
May the Lord of peace himself give you peace at all times and in every way. The Lord be with all of you.
17
This greeting is in my own hand, Paul’s. This is the sign in every letter; this is how I write.
18
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with all of you.
1 [1-18] The final chapter urges the Thessalonians to pray for Paul and his colleagues (2 Thes 3:1-2) and reiterates confidence in the Thessalonians (2 Thes 3:3-5), while admonishing them about a specific problem in their community that has grown out of the intense eschatological speculation, namely, not to work but to become instead disorderly busybodies (2 Thes 3:6-15). A benediction (2 Thes 3:16) and postscript in Paul’s own hand round out the letter. On 2 Thes 3:17-18, cf the note on 2 Thes 2:2.
2 [6] Some members of the community, probably because they regarded the parousia as imminent or the new age of the Lord to be already here (2 Thes 2:2), had apparently ceased to work for a living. The disciplinary problem they posed could be rooted in distorted thinking about Paul’s own teaching (cf 1 Thes 2:16; 3:3-4; 5:4-5) or, more likely, in a forged letter (2 Thes 2:2) and the type of teaching dealt with in 2 Thes 2:1-15. The apostle’s own moral teaching, reflected in his selfless labors for others, was rooted in a deep doctrinal concern for the gospel message (cf 1 Thes 2:3-10).
M
markbrumbaugh
Guest
I don’t understand…are you saying that you would’t trust the government with a health care system any more than I would?Here’s something to ponder: our government has enough revenue coming in via taxes that it could easily fund a national healthcare system that would provide excellent quality healthcare to all, not bringing it down like in countries such as Canada. The problem is we have these politicians who make a career out of being a senator or reprsentative. To keep their “job,” they blow tax payer money faster than a 10 yr olds allowance in a comic book store, funding little pet projects or throwing a bone back home to the voters to keep them appeased. You wanna fix a great many things in this country, start with two very simple things: term limits and pass bills that only do one thing with absolutely no earmarks. You need money for a bridge to be built back in your home state, then you write a bill for it, etc.
E
Eric_Hilbert
Guest
We’re heading into the home streach folks (1000 posts).
C
CPA2
Guest
Where is health care in the Constitution?
This gives a short but good review of some current constitutional issues, such as Health Care.
youtube.com/watch_popup?v=7n2m-X7OIuY
This gives a short but good review of some current constitutional issues, such as Health Care.
youtube.com/watch_popup?v=7n2m-X7OIuY
A
aspawloski4th
Guest
Since the 1933 War Powers act nullified the constitution, since there are countless other things we do that are not in the constitution. I do not worry about it.Where is health care in the Constitution?
This gives a short but good review of some current constitutional issues, such as Health Care.
youtube.com/watch_popup?v=7n2m-X7OIuY
A
aspawloski4th
Guest
In my post you are responding to, what caused all the mayhem was a brain anurysm. asside from keeping blood pressure at healthy levels there is not much one can do to prevent those. Many of them just happen.Preventative care is what is needed most in our nation. Without preventative care that provides people with a way to see the doctor before it becomes an emergency is critical. Make it legislation that the doctor’s must do honest work for an honest fee. Don’t charge $1500 per MRI if it only costs $300. To make the doctors take a cut in pay is the answer to some of it. Make generic drugs more readily available, not enough insurance plans cover the necessities, dental, vision, E.R. costs make it more profitable to keep someone from ending up in the hospital to begin with! And deny no one access to affordable healthcare…] Don’t let Big Pharma decide the cost of medications. Put checks and balances in line so that no one need die from something that can be treated.] and above all, Make forming monopolies on healthcare insurance stop. Costs go up when people don’t protest the wrong done them by their insurance companies, doctors, or the quality of the care they receive from the hospitals and medical professionals. Reward doctors for keeping you as healthy as possible. Not just refusing to put you in the hospital so they can claim that you don’t need care and are paid for your ‘‘health’’ because you weren’t admitted even if it was crucial you be in the hospital.
Make the medical profession accountable make the government not reward them for sloppy work. Make the government repeal its position on the right to sue if someone dies in the '‘care’ of the doctor they have.
A
andyandely1997
Guest
Too many people looking to the government as God. It is not the responsibility of the government to solve every problem. Whatever happened to Christian charity? The government is not supposed to be the middle man for charity. It is supposed to come from us. But we have passed this responsibility off to the government & our government’s charity is not always in line with the teachings of the Catholic Church. And our personal charity is affected by the ever increasing taxes (and I am not just talking about income taxes) given to our government. We are putting too much faith in our government. I am reminded of Israel wanting a king, looking to a king to bring them happiness instead of God. And what happened to Isreal? We are giving up liberty for so-called security. Just as sin can lead to bondage, our dependence on government along with our unsustainable debt will lead us into bondage.
C
CPA2
Guest
I agree 100% If we do not listen to God and the wisdom of our founding fathers, we will have to feel. I pity those that refuse to read the signs of the times; they will not know what what is in store for them.Too many people looking to the government as God. It is not the responsibility of the government to solve every problem. Whatever happened to Christian charity? The government is not supposed to be the middle man for charity. It is supposed to come from us. But we have passed this responsibility off to the government & our government’s charity is not always in line with the teachings of the Catholic Church. And our personal charity is affected by the ever increasing taxes (and I am not just talking about income taxes) given to our government. We are putting too much faith in our government. I am reminded of Israel wanting a king, looking to a king to bring them happiness instead of God. And what happened to Isreal? We are giving up liberty for so-called security. Just as sin can lead to bondage, our dependence on government along with our unsustainable debt will lead us into bondage.
We will be brought back to reason thought chastisements. Some of the chastisements will be brought about by own hand, some by nature and some by the power of God. The power of evil will be broken!
“My children, I have come to earth for you, to open your hearts for God. My son, look around you: the world is full of sin, many of your brothers and sisters have been killed through abortion and God does not want this because they are His creatures. For these people He has reserved many punishments. (The Blessed Virgin Mary to Bacco Umberto, Oliveto Citra, Italy, August 6, 1986)”
“Sin is being committed more and more, it is no longer acknowledged as an evil, it is sought out, it is consciously willed and it is no longer confessed. Impurity and lewdness cover the homes built by your rebellion. This is the reason why my heart is bleeding: because of the obstinate disbelief and the hardness of your hearts…**You live unconscious of the fate which is awaiting you. **You are spending your days in a state of unawareness, of indifference and of complete incredulity…Because this humanity has not accepted my repeated call to conversion, to repentance, and to a return to God, there is about to fall upon it the greatest chastisement which the history of mankind has ever known. It is a chastisement much greater than that of the flood. Fire will fall from Heaven and a great part of humanity will be destroyed. (Mary to Father Gobbi, September 6, 1986).”
God’s justice and the reasons for it are sufficiently given in Daniel 5:23-28: “You have defied the Lord of Heaven, you have had the vessels from His Temple brought to you, and you, your noblemen, your wives and your singing women have drunk your wine out of them. You have praised gods of gold and silver, of bronze and iron, of wood and stone, which cannot either see, hear or understand; but you have given no glory to the God who holds your breath and all your fortunes. That is why He has sent the hand which, by itself, has written these words. The writing reads: MENE, MENE, TEKEL, and PARSIN. The meaning of the words is this: MENE, God has measured your sovereignty and put an end to it; TEKEL, you have been weighed in the balance and found wanting; PARSIN, your kingdom has been divided and given to the Medes and the Persians.”
S
seekerz
Guest
(emphasis, mine)I agree 100% If we do not listen to God and the wisdom of our founding fathers, we will have to feel.
…might want to consider the wisdom of insurance companies and health corporations as well. We are already feeling: according to a CNN report I was just looking at, those ‘wise ones’ are free to charge/pay ridiculous prices (I’ve approximated the $ amounts) like - $120.00 for 2cc of Tylenol or $1100.00 for 11 infant pacifiers.
While we focus on “evil government”, we’re paying gold for dross and praising the real powers-that-be for their rape of the exalted free market! Think we’re not feeling yet? When we can’t even recognize our abusers, when we pay how much we know not for what we know not…how can retribution not yet be upon us?
C
CPA2
Guest
"We have been forgetting the basic truth that the greatest threat to human freedom is the concentration of power, whether in the hands of government or anyone else. We have persuaded ourselves that it is safe to grant power, provided it is for good purposes.”
“We are again recognizing the dangers of an over-governed society, coming to understand that good objectives can be perverted by bad means, that reliance on the freedom of people to control their own lives in accordance with their own values is the surest way to achieve the full potential of a great society (Milton Friedman).”
When you have a monoply, prices go up and service goes down. Monopolies come from the government. Don’t you think that medical doctors have a monopoly? This problem with health care started with government and now the government wants to “solve” the problem that government created! Competition is the only answer, not more government control!
“We are again recognizing the dangers of an over-governed society, coming to understand that good objectives can be perverted by bad means, that reliance on the freedom of people to control their own lives in accordance with their own values is the surest way to achieve the full potential of a great society (Milton Friedman).”
When you have a monoply, prices go up and service goes down. Monopolies come from the government. Don’t you think that medical doctors have a monopoly? This problem with health care started with government and now the government wants to “solve” the problem that government created! Competition is the only answer, not more government control!
S
seekerz
Guest
Competition, eh? To do what? See who can squeeze the most out of the consumer? I mean, you could not hope for a better business opportunity: a vulnerable customer (often sick, scared or in pain) dependent on highly-trained professionals who sometimes have no clue (and often no control) of the cost of products they recommend as necessary for health/life. Worse yet, that vulnerable customer is dependent on the efforts of profit-driven executives with both hands in his open wallet, one eye on their profit margin and the other reserved only for charges with lots of zeros behind the $ sign. What do they care about $100 charges when they pass the cost on to you?"We have been forgetting the basic truth that the greatest threat to human freedom is the concentration of power, whether in the hands of government or anyone else. We have persuaded ourselves that it is safe to grant power, provided it is for good purposes.”
“We are again recognizing the dangers of an over-governed society, coming to understand that good objectives can be perverted by bad means, that reliance on the freedom of people to control their own lives in accordance with their own values is the surest way to achieve the full potential of a great society (Milton Friedman).”
When you have a monoply, prices go up and service goes down. Monopolies come from the government. Don’t you think that medical doctors have a monopoly? This problem with health care started with government and now the government wants to “solve” the problem that government created! Competition is the only answer, not more government control!
How is competition going to make hospital billing practices (or office billing practices) more honest or reasonable? How is competition going to make clear to the consumer, exactly what the cost is of a particular type of care (they may tell you a colonoscopy costs $1000 but omit the fact that you have to pay extra for any lab testing that arises out of it, for example)? How is competition going to make the insurance companies stand up for their members instead of gouging them more each year to pay extravagant charges?
There is virtually NO price transparency in health care and that is part of the root problem. You know what you need (or are told you need) but you have no idea of the cost and the people who do could care less about you. If you’re insured, it is often only AFTER the bill is paid do you have a full picture of what the involved cost was. Of course you could pay a billing analyst to interpret the codified charges, or you could just continue to trust that someone is looking out for your interests…
BTW what is the monopoly here as you see it? Think this mess can be fixed by competition across state lines? Surely you jest…
G
GodLovesTheSpek
Guest
Let the market figure it out.
If people can’t afford private insurance, people won’t buy insurance, if people can’t afford the doctor, people won’t go to the doctor, if people don’t go to the doctor, the doctor will not be able to afford the practice, if the doctor can’t afford the practice, then the doctor goes out of business.
I wonder what the medical establishment could bear without insurance and for how long?
Some might say: But the people will get sick and die or the prices will rise incredibly for the rich.
Reply: Better get to work to really fix the system and not base it on socialistic policies. It’s a never-ending upward spiral of prices as long as the money keeps flowing from who/whatever.
The government should stay out of the charity business.
If people can’t afford private insurance, people won’t buy insurance, if people can’t afford the doctor, people won’t go to the doctor, if people don’t go to the doctor, the doctor will not be able to afford the practice, if the doctor can’t afford the practice, then the doctor goes out of business.
I wonder what the medical establishment could bear without insurance and for how long?
Some might say: But the people will get sick and die or the prices will rise incredibly for the rich.
Reply: Better get to work to really fix the system and not base it on socialistic policies. It’s a never-ending upward spiral of prices as long as the money keeps flowing from who/whatever.
The government should stay out of the charity business.
C
CPA2
Guest
Why do so many government programs fail? We’ve seen it time and time again. A need is identified, a program is formulated and put into place, everything starts out well enough, and then, perhaps over time, something happens. The program doesn’t achieve its goals. Or the amount of resources needed for it to achieve its goals are vastly more than expected.
We’ve seen this in Social Security, Medicare, the Great Society programs, and the public school system. Is it waste, fraud, and abuse (those favorite whipping-boys of legislators)? Welfare cheats? Incompetence? Just needs a little fine tuning? We’re not spending enough (no matter how much we seem to be spending)?
There is an assumption underlying all this that I don’t think holds: the assumption that spending more money necessarily correlates with better results.
Everything I’ve seen suggests, in fact, that spending is negatively correlated with outcomes. That is, the more money spent, the worse the results.
There’s a name for this: Gammon’s Law:
Dr. Max Gammon was a British physician who sought to solve a public policy riddle: In the 1960s, the government spent significantly more on health care than it had previously, but the National Health Service didn’t seem any better for it. After an extensive study of the British system of socialized medicine, Dr. Gammon formulated his law: “In a bureaucratic system, increase in expenditure will be matched by fall in production.”
Dr. Gammon reasoned: "Such systems will act rather like ‘black holes,’ in the economic universe, simultaneously sucking in resources, and shrinking in terms of ‘emitted production.’ "
Milton Friedman has written this about the application of Gammon’s Law:
“The recent surge of concern about the rising cost of medical care, and of proposals to do something about it – most involving a further move toward the complete socialization of medicine – reminded me of the Gammon study and led me to investigate whether his law applied to U.S. health care. There clearly have been major advances in medical care in the past half century. Indeed, I would not myself be alive today if it were not for some of them. Yet the question remains whether these gains were promoted or retarded by the extraordinary rise in the fraction of national income spent on medical care. How does output compare with (name removed by moderator)ut?”
Why does this happen? Does it have to happen? The short answer is yes, it does. Unfortunately for those who contemplate grand solutions to the geniune problems in the world. In a modern society the implementation of the kinds of plans we’re talking about here requires a bureaucracy. And Gammon’s Law is an intrinsic feature of bureaucracies.
Note that bureaucracies are not about outputs. They are about process. And it’s been known since Weber’s time that bureaucracies take on lives of their own. They’re like one-celled organisms. Their only objective is survival. And survival in a bureaucracy is not about output but about process.
There’s a kind of entropy in a bureaucracy: it becomes more and more organized and less and less work gets done. There are fewer outputs.
The urge to advance in one’s profession and to prosper is natural in human beings, human nature if you will. How does one advance or prosper in a bureaucracy? First, you must conform to the established processes. Second, you must rise in the hierarchy and have more people reporting to you. This explains the tendency of bureaucracies to grow over time. And the application of a little network theory should show you that this growth can be very fast, indeed.
It’s the simultaneous features of process, organization, and the tendency to grow that results in Gammon’s Law. And, since these features are intrinsic to bureaucracies, it’s inevitable.
We’ve seen this in Social Security, Medicare, the Great Society programs, and the public school system. Is it waste, fraud, and abuse (those favorite whipping-boys of legislators)? Welfare cheats? Incompetence? Just needs a little fine tuning? We’re not spending enough (no matter how much we seem to be spending)?
There is an assumption underlying all this that I don’t think holds: the assumption that spending more money necessarily correlates with better results.
Everything I’ve seen suggests, in fact, that spending is negatively correlated with outcomes. That is, the more money spent, the worse the results.
There’s a name for this: Gammon’s Law:
Dr. Max Gammon was a British physician who sought to solve a public policy riddle: In the 1960s, the government spent significantly more on health care than it had previously, but the National Health Service didn’t seem any better for it. After an extensive study of the British system of socialized medicine, Dr. Gammon formulated his law: “In a bureaucratic system, increase in expenditure will be matched by fall in production.”
Dr. Gammon reasoned: "Such systems will act rather like ‘black holes,’ in the economic universe, simultaneously sucking in resources, and shrinking in terms of ‘emitted production.’ "
Milton Friedman has written this about the application of Gammon’s Law:
“The recent surge of concern about the rising cost of medical care, and of proposals to do something about it – most involving a further move toward the complete socialization of medicine – reminded me of the Gammon study and led me to investigate whether his law applied to U.S. health care. There clearly have been major advances in medical care in the past half century. Indeed, I would not myself be alive today if it were not for some of them. Yet the question remains whether these gains were promoted or retarded by the extraordinary rise in the fraction of national income spent on medical care. How does output compare with (name removed by moderator)ut?”
Why does this happen? Does it have to happen? The short answer is yes, it does. Unfortunately for those who contemplate grand solutions to the geniune problems in the world. In a modern society the implementation of the kinds of plans we’re talking about here requires a bureaucracy. And Gammon’s Law is an intrinsic feature of bureaucracies.
Note that bureaucracies are not about outputs. They are about process. And it’s been known since Weber’s time that bureaucracies take on lives of their own. They’re like one-celled organisms. Their only objective is survival. And survival in a bureaucracy is not about output but about process.
There’s a kind of entropy in a bureaucracy: it becomes more and more organized and less and less work gets done. There are fewer outputs.
The urge to advance in one’s profession and to prosper is natural in human beings, human nature if you will. How does one advance or prosper in a bureaucracy? First, you must conform to the established processes. Second, you must rise in the hierarchy and have more people reporting to you. This explains the tendency of bureaucracies to grow over time. And the application of a little network theory should show you that this growth can be very fast, indeed.
It’s the simultaneous features of process, organization, and the tendency to grow that results in Gammon’s Law. And, since these features are intrinsic to bureaucracies, it’s inevitable.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.