Why and How?

[PJM]

Dear friends in Christ,

Do we [all /most] of us make Christ into our Image of Him, rather than endeavoring to form ourselves in His Image?

 

[Sufjon]

Dear friends in Christ,

Do we [all /most] of us make Christ into our Image of Him, rather than endeavoring to form ourselves in His Image?

It is probably an inescapably interactive process on the level of the intellect. He creates you, and you in turn create an image of Him in your mind that can’t be precisely known or replicated by anyone else. Back and forth. Actual knowledge of God/Jesus is probably only experiential, beyond mind and transcendent of mental image.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[Publisher]

It is probably an inescapably interactive process on the level of the intellect. He creates you, and you in turn create an image of Him in your mind that can’t be precisely known or replicated by anyone else. Back and forth. Actual knowledge of God/Jesus is probably only experiential, beyond mind and transcendent of mental image.

Your friend
Sufjon

Friend you speak my mind. I can unite with what you have said.

 

[Sufjon]

Friend you speak my mind. I can unite with what you have said.

Shucks Publisher.

 

[Dokimas]

Dear friends in Christ,

Do we [all /most] of us make Christ into our Image of Him, rather than endeavoring to form ourselves in His Image?

more than I know or willing to admit

 

[Reuben_J]

I think the OP is speaking about the character of Jesus.

 

[John7]

Dear friends in Christ,

Do we [all /most] of us make Christ into our Image of Him, rather than endeavoring to form ourselves in His Image?

we can’t have a perfect image of him in this life ‘down here’ ,
I fill in image to some degree, trying to keep it based on scripture

1 Corinthians 13:12
For now we see through a mirror, darkly;
but then face to face: now I know in part;
but then shall I know even as also I am known

 

[Julian0404]

Your soul is the image and likeness of GOD within you.
How you live, your words, actions, charity, behavior, habits, attitude, mercy, forgivness, love etc. that is the image of GOD you possess mentally and express actually.

GKChesterton when asked about his conversion, “is there anything about Christianity that you disturbs you” - paraphrase of exact wording. His response was "yes, just one - Christians! " He meant their behavior versus their stated belief.

Most of us fit the GKChesterton experience, yes we claim Christianity, but no we live seculary and join in all the sins of the world and our culture. Saints on the other hand, found a way to claim Christiantiy and to live “Christianity” every day and moment of their lives.

 

[Mikeoffaith]

Your soul is the image and likeness of GOD within you.
How you live, your words, actions, charity, behavior, habits, attitude, mercy, forgivness, love etc. that is the image of GOD you possess mentally and express actually.

GKChesterton when asked about his conversion, “is there anything about Christianity that you disturbs you” - paraphrase of exact wording. His response was "yes, just one - Christians! " He meant their behavior versus their stated belief.

Most of us fit the GKChesterton experience, yes we claim Christianity, but no we live seculary and join in all the sins of the world and our culture. Saints on the other hand, found a way to claim Christiantiy and to live “Christianity” every day and moment of their lives.

I agree with you. There is a favorite quote of mine that really makes think about how many times we fall short. Ghandi said, “I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are nothing like your Christ.”

 

[freerf]

Dear friends in Christ,

Do we [all /most] of us make Christ into our Image of Him, rather than endeavoring to form ourselves in His Image?

Yes, i think we always do the former and occasionally the latter. All of us, without exception.

 

[fhansen]

Dear friends in Christ,

Do we [all /most] of us make Christ into our Image of Him, rather than endeavoring to form ourselves in His Image?

I think in our natural mind it’s hard to see much above our own level. Original Sin has to do with having a self-based righteousness, split off from a God-based one, so we always tend to think we’re right wherever we are, even if maybe we should know better. In any case, I believe that the ability to “see” beyond ourselves, and aspire towards that goal is a gift of grace, God sort of tugging us to mature a little more.

 

[PJM]

=fhansen;7231746]I think in our natural mind it’s hard to see much above our own level. Original Sin has to do with having a self-based righteousness, split off from a God-based one, so we always tend to think we’re right wherever we are, even if maybe we should know better. In any case, I believe that the ability to “see” beyond ourselves, and aspire towards that goal is a gift of grace, God sort of tugging us to mature a little more.

***There are some really god replies here.

So then does our understanding of the bible have a signifiant role in this image?***

PJM [OP]

 

[Sufjon]

***There are some really god replies here.

So then does our understanding of the bible have a signifiant role in this image?***

PJM [OP]

Sure I think so. There are probably billions of images of Him, but they are synapses. Largely dependent on what we have read of Him and how we interpret what we have read and rationalize it with practical experience. I saw a movie called the Ten Commandments. In that movie God was a burning bush with a really deep voice. Now when someone mentions Abrahamic God to me, neurons fire up in my head and somehow I envision a burning bush with a deep voice telling me to take off my sandals. I can’t get rid of it no matter how God really looks and sounds. If someone mentions God from the orientation of my faith, I see something totally different.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[PJM]

=Sufjon;7234131]Sure I think so. There are probably billions of images of Him, but they are synapses. Largely dependent on what we have read of Him and how we interpret what we have read and rationalize it with practical experience. I saw a movie called the Ten Commandments. In that movie God was a burning bush with a really deep voice. Now when someone mentions Abrahamic God to me, neurons fire up in my head and somehow I envision a burning bush with a deep voice telling me to take off my sandals. I can’t get rid of it no matter how God really looks and sounds. If someone mentions God from the orientation of my faith, I see something totally different.

Your friend
Sufjon

So then an incorrect understanding of THEE Bible will lead to an incorrect understanding of Christ?

 

[Sufjon]

So then an incorrect understanding of THEE Bible will lead to an incorrect understanding of Christ?

That is an interesting question. I don’t know if I can say that diverse views of God necessarily produce incorrect views. Because we are human and live on the causal world, everything is relative, and we are part of the creative process. I can explain but it is rather detailed. Quantum science has proven pretty conclusively that consciousness helps create reality. A particle of any particular sort doesn’t actually become a particle until it is observed by an observer. Until that point it exists only as a wave potential, or wavicle if you would. Once observed it collapses into the reality of an actual particle. You can demonstrate this on a very primitive level. Because potential particles only exists as waves until they are observed, these waves can cancel one another out before they turn into something. If you take your thumb and forefinger and put them very very close to one another but not touching, you will see a thin black line. The black line you see is the nothingness of photon wave potentials canceling each other out because of their close proximity. Wave interference. You have caused these potential photons not to become photons because you have caused the wavicles to cancel one another out. Your conscious effort canceled out a potential reality on micro level. Because they canceled one another out, you can’t observe them, so they can’t become real.

So how does something exist on the surface of Mars, where there are no human observers? The answers is that SOMETHING is always watching. One consciousness is everywhere, experiencing what It makes through the things It makes. The ultimate illusion may be yours and my individual consciousness. What we mistake for consciousness might just be the interaction between sense organs and the brain. Getting tangled in the world of their constant interaction and play, we might fail to notice the real consciousness within, which is at a deeper level and not even yours or mine. Perhaps it is constantly creating and destroying things on micro and macro levels, and experiencing the worlds full of mutability it creates through the sentient beings it creates. In that scenario there is no PJM or Sufjon. They are abstractions created by the thinking machines at the end of our sensory systems. Perhaps then in realty, there is only one consciousness that is pervasive throughout all of creation, and that is what you and I really are. The observer and the observed. The Creator and the created. One thing expressed as many. In that case, it would make sense to love the Lord thy God with all your heart and mind and to love thy neighbor as thyself. Or better put, KNOW they neighbor to BE thyself. Now that’s a tough pill to swallow in the west, because it involves letting go of the idea of you.

Anyway, whether or not it makes sense to you, that is the long-founded belief structure I have lived in for most of my life. I wouldn’t suggest that you should believe it, because it’s fine for you to create your own realities. That too demonstrates how I can’t with any certainty say that there are a lot of false images of God floating around out there. They are what they are and He is who He is.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[Janet1983]

Dear friends in Christ,

Do we [all /most] of us make Christ into our Image of Him, rather than endeavoring to form ourselves in His Image?

Well we should be striving to become more like Him and to be conformed to His image. We should not be conformed to this age, but be transformed by the renewing of our mind, so that we may discern what is the good, pleasing, and perfect will of God.

 

[PJM]

=Sufjon;7234300]That is an interesting question. I don’t know if I can say that diverse views of God necessarily produce incorrect views. Because we are human and live on the causal world, everything is relative, and we are part of the creative process. I can explain but it is rather detailed. Quantum science has proven pretty conclusively that consciousness helps create reality. A particle of any particular sort doesn’t actually become a particle until it is observed by an observer. Until that point it exists only as a wave potential, or wavicle if you would. Once observed it collapses into the reality of an actual particle. You can demonstrate this on a very primitive level. Because potential particles only exists as waves until they are observed, these waves can cancel one another out before they turn into something. If you take your thumb and forefinger and put them very very close to one another but not touching, you will see a thin black line. The black line you see is the nothingness of photon wave potentials canceling each other out because of their close proximity. Wave interference. You have caused these potential photons not to become photons because you have caused the wavicles to cancel one another out. Your conscious effort canceled out a potential reality on micro level. Because they canceled one another out, you can’t observe them, so they can’t become real.

So how does something exist on the surface of Mars, where there are no human observers? The answers is that SOMETHING is always watching. One consciousness is everywhere, experiencing what It makes through the things It makes. The ultimate illusion may be yours and my individual consciousness. What we mistake for consciousness might just be the interaction between sense organs and the brain. Getting tangled in the world of their constant interaction and play, we might fail to notice the real consciousness within, which is at a deeper level and not even yours or mine. Perhaps it is constantly creating and destroying things on micro and macro levels, and experiencing the worlds full of mutability it creates through the sentient beings it creates. In that scenario there is no PJM or Sufjon. They are abstractions created by the thinking machines at the end of our sensory systems. Perhaps then in realty, there is only one consciousness that is pervasive throughout all of creation, and that is what you and I really are. The observer and the observed. The Creator and the created. One thing expressed as many. In that case, it would make sense to love the Lord thy God with all your heart and mind and to love thy neighbor as thyself. Or better put, KNOW they neighbor to BE thyself. Now that’s a tough pill to swallow in the west, because it involves letting go of the idea of you.

Anyway, whether or not it makes sense to you, that is the long-founded belief structure I have lived in for most of my life. I wouldn’t suggest that you should believe it, because it’s fine for you to create your own realities. That too demonstrates how I can’t with any certainty say that there are a lot of false images of God floating around out there. They are what they are and He is who He is.

Your friend
Sufjon

Beautifully done. I especsially liked your thought of knowing our neighbors as ourselfs. I’ll give that prayerful thougt.

That idea that we [my term] ought to create our own realities seems to me to directly conflict with what Pope benedict XVI shared: “there cannot be my truth and your truth or there would be NO TRUTH.” This concept seems to me to very logical; especially in this world where nearly everyone does create there own truth.

Love and prayers,
Pat

 

[Sufjon]

Beautifully done. I especsially liked your thought of knowing our neighbors as ourselfs. I’ll give that prayerful thougt.

That idea that we [my term] ought to create our own realities seems to me to directly conflict with what Pope benedict XVI shared: “there cannot be my truth and your truth or there would be NO TRUTH.” This concept seems to me to very logical; especially in this world where nearly everyone does create there own truth.

Love and prayers,
Pat

Hi PJM: I think we probably believe a lot of the same things, even though on the surface our religions would seems worlds apart. On closer examination I don’t think they are. I have spent several years reading the Christian Bible and I can correlate almost every passage in the New Testament to something from my own. The difference is in what people are saying they mean, so that’s why I like to come here and see what people are saying. In the long term I think I will benefit from it. But there is a lot of diversity in what people say. The question of what is the truth is a matter of considerable gravity for most people. I don;t think it’s truth that bothers people so much as the need for certainty. The survival of what we perceive to be our innermost selves is what is at stake when the question comes up. Once you let go of that idea of self, the situation settles a bit.

You mentioned the Pope saying that there cannot be my truth and your truth, and I would agree, but once again on a level he might not expect. I agree because I don’t perceive a separate you and a separate me, so it follows that the Pope is right. I don’t have a truth and you don’t have a truth. What we have are perceptions. When you eat an apple you are not experiencing an apple. You are experiencing the interaction of a complex sensory system with an apple. It’s interactive and codependent. Transpersonal. That experience will be somewhat different for you than it is for me. The apple and everything else in the physical world turn out to be epiphenomenons of consciousness, rather than the other way round. The other way round is only how we perceive it, and what we are given to perceive with is quite limited. I have this dog, who for the life of me is a puzzle. He runs away all the time. When he comes back I scold him. I don’t like it that I do that, but that’s what I do. I called a trainer. The trainer told me that he dog can only create a link between my displeasure and the last thing he did - not the thing he did just before the last thing. So to my dog, and am the person who gets angry when he comes back, rather than the person who gets angry when he runs away.

Now when I consider my mind in the context of a huge universe, and possibly infinite universes, and also consider my three dimensional perspective in what is quite possibly an eleven dimensional reality, I think the ability of my intellect to get at an all encompassing truth on any level is quite limited. More limited than my dog’s ability to understand me. I have to turn to something deeper. If the Pope and I were both able to get to that deeper level that is beyond intellect, then he and I both might know something about God we could agree on.

I don’t know if that’ll make any sense to you. If not, it’s probably because I messed up explaining it. The point is that I am striving to know God on a direct experiential level rather than through intellect only. Because of that, I don’t believe that any ultimate truth is something that can be properly expressed. It can only be known through direct contact with the source.

Always your friend,
Sufjon

 

[PJM]

Hi PJM: I think we probably believe a lot of the same things, even though on the surface our religions would seems worlds apart. On closer examination I don’t think they are. I have spent several years reading the Christian Bible and I can correlate almost every passage in the New Testament to something from my own. The difference is in what people are saying they mean, so that’s why I like to come here and see what people are saying. In the long term I think I will benefit from it. But there is a lot of diversity in what people say. The question of what is the truth is a matter of considerable gravity for most people. I don;t think it’s truth that bothers people so much as the need for certainty. The survival of what we perceive to be our innermost selves is what is at stake when the question comes up. Once you let go of that idea of self, the situation settles a bit.

You mentioned the Pope saying that there cannot be my truth and your truth, and I would agree, but once again on a level he might not expect. I agree because I don’t perceive a separate you and a separate me, so it follows that the Pope is right. I don’t have a truth and you don’t have a truth. What we have are perceptions. When you eat an apple you are not experiencing an apple. You are experiencing the interaction of a complex sensory system with an apple. It’s interactive and codependent. Transpersonal. That experience will be somewhat different for you than it is for me. The apple and everything else in the physical world turn out to be epiphenomenons of consciousness, rather than the other way round. The other way round is only how we perceive it, and what we are given to perceive with is quite limited. I have this dog, who for the life of me is a puzzle. He runs away all the time. When he comes back I scold him. I don’t like it that I do that, but that’s what I do. I called a trainer. The trainer told me that he dog can only create a link between my displeasure and the last thing he did - not the thing he did just before the last thing. So to my dog, and am the person who gets angry when he comes back, rather than the person who gets angry when he runs away.
Now when I consider my mind in the context of a huge universe, and possibly infinite universes, and also consider my three dimensional perspective in what is quite possibly an eleven dimensional reality, I think the ability of my intellect to get at an all encompassing truth on any level is quite limited. More limited than my dog’s ability to understand me. I have to turn to something deeper. If the Pope and I were both able to get to that deeper level that is beyond intellect, then he and I both might know something about God we could agree on.

Always your friend,
Sufjon

***My dear friend in Christ.

A few additional comments on your shared views of the pope.

I disagree with your philosophy and here is why.

In an absolute sense single True facts must exist. 2+2 is always 4; the sun rises and ets Ect.

We hold that every human person for all of time is CREATED by our God in “His imag and likeness.” Gensis 1:26-27. God is “Spirit and Truth.” John 4:23-24.

So in what way is humanity Created in the [spiritual] image of God?

Each of us have a Mind [not speaking of the brain here], an Intellect, and a freewill. Evidence of these gifts make it possible to dialog as we are. Each of these Gifts is SPIRITUAL in Nature. For example quantify fo me yor “freewill.” Color, size, shape, weight Ect.

Because these are Spiritual gifts that cannot be inherited we understand thm to come from our Creator; God.

Because of the uniquness [no two humans are idential in all of time.] These Gifts logically are provided for a precise purpose. See Isaiah 43: vrs. 7 and 21.

Each of these factors lead to he ineventable conclusion that single TRUTHS do exist.

God bless,
Pat***

 

[Sufjon]

***My dear friend in Christ.

A few additional comments on your shared views of the pope.

I disagree with your philosophy and here is why.

In an absolute sense single True facts must exist. 2+2 is always 4; the sun rises and ets Ect.

We hold that every human person for all of time is CREATED by our God in “His imag and likeness.” Gensis 1:26-27. God is “Spirit and Truth.” John 4:23-24.

So in what way is humanity Created in the [spiritual] image of God?

Each of us have a Mind [not speaking of the brain here], an Intellect, and a freewill. Evidence of these gifts make it possible to dialog as we are. Each of these Gifts is SPIRITUAL in Nature. For example quantify fo me yor “freewill.” Color, size, shape, weight Ect.

Because these are Spiritual gifts that cannot be inherited we understand thm to come from our Creator; God.

Because of the uniquness [no two humans are idential in all of time.] These Gifts logically are provided for a precise purpose. See Isaiah 43: vrs. 7 and 21.

Each of these factors lead to he ineventable conclusion that single TRUTHS do exist.

God bless,
Pat***

Dear Friend Pat: Thank you for your patience. Yes, 2 + 2 is 4 as you said. It is also math. It is also half of eight. It is also an even number. It is also a sum. It is also a result. It is also addition. All are true. Which is the singular truth? Truths are machinations of the mind and the mind is the problem. It grasps for certainties. It aims to survive, and looks for truths that help it to believe that it’s possible for it to survive in some long-term way.You are infinitely more than that instrument of thought that seeks reassurance of it’s own eternal survival. If we get beyond the mind we will know some truth. That is why God said to “be still and know that I am.” Still the mind and know 'I am" directly. That is how He is known. The mind is taking us this place and that, when what we need to know is nearer than the breath and cannot be known by the mind. Truths are matters of the mind. Again, the mind is the problem. Silence the mind and find Him in the space between the thoughts. Having this, what need is there for this truth or that?

Your friend
Sufjon