Why Apologetics?

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TPJCatholic:
Della,

Did Jesus use a sword or His Divine Intellect and Tongue? Did John Paul II or Mother Teresa use swords or their tongues and intellect?

The moment we back pick-up swords, we are seen as warriors, not as loving Christians–we are seen as people to do battle against, rather then people who carry the most important message ever known.

People who carry swords have no room to carry light.
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All right. You’ll pardon me, but this is getting silly. I don’t ascribe to your complete pacifism in this matter and I said why. I don’t see any need to explain myself again and again, merely because you don’t agree. I have explained and answered already. I don’t have to agree with you in order to answer you, which is what you seem to be pushing for here. I find that a tactic of violence–a violence of another’s right to see things differently from you when there is room for disagreement. I will not yield to your ideas no matter how high-minded you try to make them sound or how one-sidedly you present them. And that is that. :yawn:
 
Della,

I am sincerely sorry for having offended you, and it saddens me that my statements have caused you to react so harshly. Please forgive me and God Bless you. 🙂
 
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TPJCatholic:
Della,

I am sincerely sorry for having offended you, and it saddens me that my statements have caused you to react so harshly. Please forgive me and God Bless you. 🙂
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I was only being truthful and plain-speaking. If you saw my comments as harsh, I too apologize. 🙂
 
Little Mary,

You make many sound points–thank you. 🙂

I suppose I look upon how Jesus drew people to Him; how John Paul II attracted millions of young people that will likely impact the world for decades, and I think of Mother Teresa who did nothing but give heself completely to the world. In those examples we see an example of converting people through speaking the truth with love, not through the sword.

As for your points, I agree with many things you said, especially the point that some people can talk about Jesus, while others need to see Jesus in us…that is my basic message here. If we live as Christ wants us to live, and make that life known, then that is the strongest form of evangelization…anyone not seeing the light in a life lived for Christ is not likely to listen to clever arguments–imo.
 
Della,

No problem, we just do not see it the same. 🙂

It seems I was too strong in the way I made my statements. Lesson learned…thanks again.
 
Hi TPJC!

I guess some would expect for me to weigh in on this topic, and I do have some strong opinions spawned by my own experiences, so here I go.

One of the things that has made modern Catholic apologetics so much of a debate oriented art is the internet and forums. There are (as most of us will readily admit) a great many sites that are geared to opposing Catholic teaching and evangelism of Catholics out of the faith. That (IMO) is wholly unacceptable. I can speak to this issue as one who was misled and so evangelized. I am a re-vert.

It was my own apologetic studies that led me back to Christ first of all and then back to the Catholic faith, and it was made necessary by the repeated attacks of non-Catholics on what I believed. To steal a line from a good friend of mine, “you can’t even swing a dead cat” without hitting someone who will immediately intervene if you say you are Catholic or considering conversion to the Catholic faith. Often they speak out with a whole shotgun approach loaded with of allegations and assertions that the average soul is ill prepared to respond to with the result that their faith is shaken and even worse they are suddenly caught up in that person’s evangelistic fervor and led astray.

The debate style has been largely predicated by the type of “evangelism” or “witnessing” that we Catholics are subjected to. Very rarely are we invited to participate in quiet discussions of the differences between our most holy faith and the post reformation myriad of n-C churches over a cup of coffee.

It has been my personal experience that the more cultish evangelists seem to seek out the average Catholic to target for Evangelism, knowing (rightly & sadly) that most Catholics are not as well versed in the knowledge of the Word of God, or of their own faith and therefore are preferred as an “easy target.”

That debate style challenge in their evangelism has probably been the reason that apologetics seems to have developed the style that it has. It has been my own experience that many n-Cs/a-Cs tend to train their people in that style of “witnessing” and as you rightly point out it has mixed results. In my case it drives me off (not without a response of course. :irish1: ) but my own face to face faith sharing is far more gentle. However, I must also add that it is the same apologetics learning that is rapidly producing some of the best catechists around and I rejoice to hear that so many of the people here at CAF are hearing the call of the Holy Spirit and getting involved in their parish Faith Formation functions, because frankly that is what it’s all about. The church has always taught that we are to evangelize and catechise our own before we begin to go out into the highways and byways seeking the lost.

Actually, you are wrong about there not being anyone that has “converted because of a debate or argument.” I know several and I can produce testimonies from this very website of several as well.

Apologetics and debate have been part of Christianity from the time of Christ. What do you suppose it was that Jesus was doing in the temple for that 3 days when he was 12? Also, consider how many apologetics debates he had with the Pharisees and Sadducees during His public ministry. He won some of them over as well (Nicodemus for instance), but the most telling effect was upon those who listened to those discussions (heated as they sometimes got), think of the crowds. The apostles seem to have carried on this tradition of apologetics and Acts of the Apostles shows many examples, especially of St. Paul, but almost all the epistles are apologetic in nature.

In closing, I think the key to this discussion is the New Testament exhortation from 1st Peter 3:15 which (IMHO) is the hardest part of all faith sharing.but in your hearts reverence Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to make a defense to any one who calls you to account for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and reverence; (Emphasis mine)
Pax vobiscum,
 
TP,

I was one of those who lurked here that Della refers to. Thank God for her and others like her. So many people out there are tired and looking for the truth. As a lurker here (for a couple of years before I even posted) I was challenged and invited to learn more of the truth. The exchanges here fueled that desire, and I truly believe the Holy Spirit was often working through them.

I believe in our face to face world we only assist God’s work in conversion by both our examples AND our words. They both have to be there. When I came home to the Church I rarely brought up the topic to my family. I knew I could only say yes to God and struggle to be an example. I knew in the end I couldn’t convert anyone, that happens through God’s grace. Three members of my family have now come into the Church. My role was only to try and be an example. And I am not sure I would have tried if it wasn’t for what I found in these postings.
May God bless you!
 
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TPJCatholic:
fidelis,

Thank you for your suggestions. 🙂 I can assure you that I fully embrace balance and do NOT take an either/or position…
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The second it leaves your lips…
…Jesus said that if we live by the sword, we shall die by the sword. Jesus did not live by the sword.

A person can speak the complete truth without being a warrior and without cramming it down a person’s throat through cleverly concocted arguments. Recall the bread of life discourse. Jesus spoke some very hard truths in that discourse and many people walked away. He let them walk away, He did not force them or coerce them to come to Him. He simply spoke the truth and let hearts go where they will. That is a wonderful example of how we should act…tell the truth, then let the hearts go where they may. We cannot save anyone, God does that. All we can do is to tell the truth and to live our lives in the full truth–letting the light and truth shine through our statements, not through clever arguments and years of apologetic training.
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…you immediately return to seeing only one side of the coin. :banghead:

For the last time-- EXTREME POSITIONS are the sign of an unbalanced aproach to religion. You can love someone right into hell, as well as drive them there by “hitting them over the head” with rules and theology.

Balance, balance, BALANCE.
 
To all,

Thank you for all of the great (name removed by moderator)ut–it has given me much to think about.

May God Bless your efforts in helping to build His kingdom. 🙂
 
I Peter 3:15 But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, 16 keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.

Proverbs 15:1
A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger.

Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless.

Hi TPJCatholic, I see your question as addressing method of apologetics. Most of the discussion on the boards here and elsewhere falls into the range of useless quarrels. I have often asked a question, and not have it understood at all here because too many people are in a fighting mood so to speak. I am the type of person who looks for the strenghts and weakness of viewpoints on both sides. Elsewhere, I have been accussed of being “double minded” because I look at the strengths of someone’s arguments. So, we all should read First Cor 13 and keep it in mind while discussing anything with fellow brothers in Christ or when discussing truth with non-christians.

agape
Daniel
 
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TPJCatholic:
I understand the need for strong teaching and reference sources for Catholics (and those interested in the faith). However, what good do we do when we tend to lean towards arguing or debating with people who do not believe in the fullness of truth? I cannot think of one time in my life when a person converted because of a debate or argument.
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Then you have not read any of the numerous books by Catholic convert apologists who did convert to Catholicism after listening to a taped apologetic debate, attending one, or engaging in apologetic debate with Catholics while a Protestant.

Yes, apologetics-- giving reasoned explanation for what we believe-- does indeed have a significant place within the broad category of “evangelization”.
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TPJCatholic:
Wouldn’t the Kingdom be better served if each one of us simply gave witness to our faith in the way we live, rather then in the clever and quite defensive way in which we have learned to argue and debate?
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The Kingdom is best served by each person using the talents given to him/her by God to their fullest extent. We are many parts, and all one body. It is not an either/or proposition. It is, of course, a both/and situation.

Scripture tells us to be prepared to give a reasoned explanation of what we believe. Scripture also tells us to live our Faith by example. It is both/and.
 
Daniel,

Thank you. You properly discerned my intent. Method is very important. Your thoughts about useless quarels and people being in fighting moods is right on the mark regarding the point I have tried to make. I admitted from the onset that apologetic materials have their place…yet I frankly see very little charity in the way many people go about explaining the faith…it seems more like a war zone to me. Thank you again for the assist. 🙂
 
1ke,

You are correct, there have been converts to the faith as a result of apologetics. If you take note, I said that I have never seen anyone convert because of those tactics and I would submit that I think it is very rare indeed. I would further submit that people like John Paul II and Mother Teresa have helped convert many more hearts through the sheer glory of their lives, then any apologist has.

Jesus’ story is remarkable for many reasons, yet the most impactful for many people is the example He gave by walking as a lamb through the horrors He suffered for us. Those actions changed the world and He did not carry a sword as He carried His Cross. He lived and died as the suffering servant who came to this world to save us.

I think it would do many apologists some good to think about those points.
 
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TPJCatholic:
1ke,

You are correct, there have been converts to the faith as a result of apologetics. If you take note, I said that I have never seen anyone convert because of those tactics and I would submit that I think it is very rare indeed.
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The sum total of this argument is “I do not know know anyone personally who has converted as a result of an apologetics talk, therefore it is rare.” And your corollary seems to be, “and therefore apologetic debates are ineffective and bad.”

That is an unfounded and completely indefensible argument.
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TPJCatholic:
I would further submit that people like John Paul II and Mother Teresa have helped convert many more hearts through the sheer glory of their lives, then any apologist has.
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JPII was a prolific writer and apologist-- he was a master apologist, giving reasoned explanation of the faith par excellence. And, he didn’t mince words either. He did not preach a watered-down faith. Yet, he also was a master example via the life he lived and his actions. JPII was gifted to have both talents. Mother Teresa was an apologist for the weak, both in action and in words.
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TPJCatholic:
Jesus’ story is remarkable for many reasons, yet the most impactful for many people is the example He gave by walking as a lamb through the horrors He suffered for us. Those actions changed the world and He did not carry a sword as He carried His Cross. He lived and died as the suffering servant who came to this world to save us.
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Apologetics is not equivalent to literally taking up arms. The entire New Testament is one big work of apologetics. Jesus himself was an apologist, explaining to the Jews why their interpretation of Scripture was in error, leading them to Truth with his words as well as his actions.

Jesus had no issue with taking a whip to the tax collectors in the temple, and St Paul reminds us to put on the metaphorical armor of God as we march into battle for the faith. The armor of God is an appropriate image.

Again, it is not either/or, it is both/and. We need both, some people are called to do both. If you aren’t called in that way, that’s fine. But, who are you to question those who are???
 
1ke,

I could respond to each point you made, but that would be a non-productive use of our time. However, I would like to respecfully respond to your question:

“But, who are you to question those who are???”

*==> I am a member of the Body of Christ and as such I am voicing my opinion that modern day apologetics has questionable methods. I cannot tell anyone what to do, yet I can voice my opinion that apologetic methods push people away from the Church far more often then they attract people to the Church. *
 
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