Why are adult children not interviewed about annulment?

[manualman]

My parents were married for over 30 years. There were 3 kids over a 15 year span. I witnessed ups and downs. Struggles, arguments. Participation in Bible Studies and Marriage Encounter. I am the oldest child and was over 30 when they decided to divorce. An annulment was granted by the Diocese of Milwaukee (This might be my answer).

Can someone offer a reasonable explanation for why the tribunal would not ask for my observations? Would I not have a more thorough view than anyone on earth other than the two involved? I still can’t understand how the church can determine that this was not a sacramental marriage without interviewing either of the two adult children. I am tempted to just be cynical and assume this diocese just hands out catholic divorces, but am hopeful somebody might offer a reasonable excuse for this apparent glaring lack of investigation.

 

[JimO]

manualman:

My parents were married for over 30 years. There were 3 kids over a 15 year span. I witnessed ups and downs. Struggles, arguments. Participation in Bible Studies and Marriage Encounter. I am the oldest child and was over 30 when they decided to divorce. An annulment was granted by the Diocese of Milwaukee (This might be my answer).

Can someone offer a reasonable explanation for why the tribunal would not ask for my observations? Would I not have a more thorough view than anyone on earth other than the two involved? I still can’t understand how the church can determine that this was not a sacramental marriage without interviewing either of the two adult children. I am tempted to just be cynical and assume this diocese just hands out catholic divorces, but am hopeful somebody might offer a reasonable excuse for this apparent glaring lack of investigation.

The reason is really simple. The tribunal is not looking at the success of the marriage. Their task is restricted solely at determining whether a sacramental marriage occurred. In the same way that two people could live together in a successful relationship for many years without ever having been married, two people can be married for many years without having a sacramental marriage. The children would shed no light on the circumstances surrounding the wedding itself, unless the children were born prior to the wedding and old enough to provide some relevent evidence that would shed light on the subject.

A common misconception is that an annulment is the Church’s way of dissolving a marriage. The Church does not have this power. An annulment is a declaration that the sacrament never took place.

It sounds like semantics, but it is a critical distinction.

Blessings

 

[Mac6yver]

I am not Catholic, but my wife’s family is/was Catholic. I say “is/was” because 90% of them have given up Church. Anyways, when my Mother in-law wanted to remarry Catholic she had to get an annulment. They did not even interview her or her former husband. They made them fill out a questioneer(SP) regarding their marriage. Then it would not go through, she would call and they would always say it was in processing. Well finally she sent them some money and two days later it was granted. So I have some what of a cynical outlook on the process.

 

[JimO]

Mac6yver:

I am not Catholic, but my wife’s family is/was Catholic. I say “is/was” because 90% of them have given up Church. Anyways, when my Mother in-law wanted to remarry Catholic she had to get an annulment. They did not even interview her or her former husband. They made them fill out a questioneer(SP) regarding their marriage. Then it would not go through, she would call and they would always say it was in processing. Well finally she sent them some money and two days later it was granted. So I have some what of a cynical outlook on the process.

I can’t speak to the circumstances. People will be people. But, a sacramental Catholic marriage must be conducted in a certain form or it is automatically invalid. Certain vows must be said and certain representations must be made by the couple. This is called the form. If the form is clearly flawed (such as they didn’t state any vows or didn’t invoke God), then there is no need to interview the couple. The questionairre probably had sufficient information to decide the case.

Regarding the delays and “sudden” response when a “fee” was submitted, I can only speculate. Like other organizations, the Catholic Church has employees and expenses. Lay people work for the Church and have to make a living. The “fees” charged to process an annulment offset some of these administrative costs. Maybe the only thing lacking was the “fee”. Just like if one goes to the State and applies for a driver’s license. You could pass the test and fill out all the forms, but you can’t get a license until the fee is paid.

Because of the nature of an annulment, people bristle at the thought that there are “administrative costs” and red tape, but frankly, how else can it be done? People can’t work for free. There is such a shortage of priests that the administrative work cannot be entirely done by clergy. It’s a practical problem.

 

[formercatholic]

According to what the Church says the main area of concern surrounds the consent of the individuals at the time of the vows, more or less.

Of course there are legitimate issues of absolute competance or
relative(at about the time of consent) competance these are legitimate concerns as well.

But having lived through nine years of marriage, in a marriage judged to be Sacramental by the Rota twice(by six judges unanimously I would like to intentionally add) after having been declared null by an American tribunal of three judges(unanimously I would like to intentionally add) I think that consent at the time of the vows should not be the sole criteria to judge validity. There were countless times where my wife and I upon taking our individual stock of our lives together reaffirmed our commitment to
each other and to our marriage.

I think the Church has a myopic vision of real consent. Certainly,
I see the necessity to comprehensively understand the circumstances at the matrimonial ceremony but I think post marital recommitments should be powerful statements regarding the valid exchange of consent from the start. I know I was never, ever asked such a question and I do not think I mentioned it because it was never asked until I wrote a 45 page treatise about our entire marriage, which I submitted to the initial inquiry after having had it proofed for accuracy by three separate people who knew both my wife and myself very well for most of our marriage. In fact two of them were her friends before I became their friends, after our separation.

There is much more going on in these processes that the Church has to get involved with but does not and as a consequence only those who want their annulments are being ministered too.

Those like myself feel that this process is a worse violation, an even more fundamental and violent ongoing never-ending rape. And there are no clerics on any level willing to try to develop a real understanding of what is fully going on. This is sorely needed.

Of our four adult children, all of whom were young children when I was forced to separate from them, none practice their faith. None.
They all have varying opinions, which the Church does not care to hear, even though this process is directly responsible for their alienation from the Catholic Church. In my oninion that is a crime which there are ground for pursuing within the Church legal system but I cannot find a canonist, probono, who will even listen to me to try to see things from my perspective. This entire divorce annulment system was poorly conceived and is extremely poorly administered in every single diocese in the United States.

While our children have no knowledge of the issues sorrounding the determination the Church must make regarding validity based upon information at the time of the exchange of vows, they certainly do have significant knowledge and factual observations regarding ancillary issues which should impact this proceeding. But they are completely shut out.

This system needs to be shut down and comprehensively redesigned and every single case decided solely in the United States must be reheard, if there is a real interest in truth, based on the new paradigm which would result from the issues rehashed before the new system would be put online.

What we have now is a system which is under the oversight of Bishops who receive (name removed by moderator)ut almost exclusively from clergy and canonists, who do not listen to respondents, by and large. What system would you expect if you got what you sought more than 90% of the time. That is what we have. There is no quality control or real feedback.

Not a single ordinary I have lived under or my wife and her lover have lived under will even grant me an audience to discuss what I have experienced, a couple did respond but would not give me a hearing of any value or assign someone to listen.

They are/were Cardinal O’Connor, Cardinal Egan, Bishop Gerald O’Keefe(deceased), Bishop Franklin(Davenport, Iowa), Bishop Sullivan(Richmond, Va), Bishop Gossman(Raleigh,NC) and Eparch Andrew Pataki(Byzantine Bishop Passaic, NJ). These are just those in authority not the many others who ignore me as well, who are legion.

Children definately should have (name removed by moderator)ut that is appropriate but the Church needs to utilize this process for discernement of invalidity as well as an insrument of healing to marriages it determines are valid but have been broken by divorce. These marriages can be healed even in very complex situations involving remarriage and other children but that would take commitment on all parties. But it must be through the driving force of the Church both Pastorally and Canonically that this is accomplished.

 

[JimO]

formercatholic:

I will return to her, running, when I see her move in a direction of real healing and not what she is wrongly doing now. For now, I pray that some wise Bishops will listen to those of us who have been discarded but who wait for them to listen to us, for the good of all of the children(adult children too).

My pastor is fond of saying “Do not judge the faith by the poor practice of it by some Catholics.” If you are willing to return based on the actions of certain people, then you must believe in the Church’s teaching on the Eucharist. If so, and you stay away from this amazing gift, you are not hurting any of the Bishops, priests or anyone else by staying away. You are letting their behavior rob you of the grace of the sacraments. The Church will never be perfect on this earth, but Jesus is and the Eucharist is His greatest gift to the faithful.

Blessings

 

[formercatholic]

Having seen what I have, I know that what I have proposed is for the good of the Church. I will return to her, running, when I see her move in a direction of real healing and not what she is wrongly doing now. For now, I pray that some wise Bishops will listen to those of us who have been discarded but who wait for them to listen to us, for the good of all of the children(adult children too).

 

[formercatholic]

Jim,

You are right. I cannot fault you.

But I have so much rage and hatred that I cannot receive the Eucharist. I fight such a battle each day. I cannot sit through a Mass hearing priests preaching about what I sould do when they and their superiors do not even attempt to do what they ask. I get sick to my stomach.

When catholics understand and accept that an unjust divorce and remarriage is daily homosexual rape, then we may begin to make some headway in understanding the violation the Church is condoning here. In the name of the “good of the Children”. The Church is truly saying that my rape at the hands of my wife and her lover is TOLERABLE for the good of their two children.

I will, never, return to such a Church, never ever ,until it repents, publically and acknowledges what it is doing.

Pray for me. Think about it. Do not blindly follow what on the surface seems to make sense.

 

[JimO]

formercatholic:

I will, never, return to such a Church, never ever, until it repents, publically and acknowledges what it is doing.
Pray for me.

I will pray for you. The Holy Father just got around to repenting for the sins of individuals in the Church committed hundreds of years ago. Don’t wait for that. Don’t let these boneheads steal your peace and joy. You need healing and Jesus waits with arms open wide. Unforgiveness is a cancer that doesn’t affect the unforgiven, but the unforgiver. I know this to be true. I’ve had to forgive two people who did me great harm - the man who murdered my sister and a former spouse who left me for another man. I learned three things - 1) the unforgiveness was eating me up, not them, 2) Forgiveness is a decision of the will, not a feeling, and 3) Forgiveness is a process, not an event.

For the former spouse, I sat down alone in my apartment, faced an empty chair and told “her” all the hurt she had caused. When I was done, I said, “but for all that I choose to forgive you and I relinquish all claims against you in the name of Jesus”. That was the beginning of healing for me. It took a long time for me to feel it and I frequently had to remind Satan that I had forgiven her and even reject the resentment in the name of Jesus, but by the grace of God, I am at peace.

Your soul is too precious to Jesus. Don’t let bitterness rob Him of your soul. You ARE loved. In the Name of Jesus, I say that your ARE loved!

Blessings

 

[formercatholic]

Your kindness, from a man of your experience, is deeply moving and I cannot dismiss it lightly without doing harm to a man who means only good.

Please, do understand that I am not able, now, to reach where you are or even where you were when you turned that corner in your life.

 

[puzzleannie]

manualman:

Can someone offer a reasonable explanation for why the tribunal would not ask for my observations? .

Probably because the judgement of whether or not a valid marriage occurred or was possible is based on the status and condition of both parties and their situation before marriage, whether there were impediments in natural or canon law, whether valid consent was given or was possible. Events after the marriage are not part of determining whether a marriage is valid, although they may be indicators of conditions existing prior to the marriage. Naturally, as their child, you were not around before the marriage so your testimony would not be relevant.

 

[Catholic2003]

manualman:

Can someone offer a reasonable explanation for why the tribunal would not ask for my observations?

Both the petitioner and the respondent are given the opportunity to select witnesses. Thus, I would conclude that neither of your parents wanted you to be a witness. Perhaps you should ask them why.

 

[jmm08]

JimO:

The reason is really simple. … The children would shed no light on the circumstances surrounding the wedding itself, unless the children were born prior to the wedding and old enough to provide some relevent evidence that would shed light on the subject.

Same thing I would have said. Frequently, when annulment is granted, they only need witnesses that can talk about the period of time leading up to the marriage.

Children born as a result of the marriage cannot be witnesses to the period of time leading up to the marriage.

 

[formercatholic]

I am obliged to correct what appear to be errors being propogated here.

The Tribunals do, in fact, frequently examine witnesses who did not know the petitioner or the respondent before or even at the time of the marriage. To say otherwise is not correct.

While the time leading upto the marriage and the time of the marriage are the primary focus, there are many other issus which impact these proceedings which tribunals do have an interest in.

 

[rayne89]

formercatholic:

Having seen what I have, I know that what I have proposed is for the good of the Church. I will return to her, running, when I see her move in a direction of real healing and not what she is wrongly doing now. For now, I pray that some wise Bishops will listen to those of us who have been discarded but who wait for them to listen to us, for the good of all of the children(adult children too).

You have let your bitterness over this situation drive you away for Jesus in a Eucharist. Satan must be dancing with delight. How many other scandals have there been in the church besides yours? There will be sin and scandal as long as their are human beings in the church. So everyone should just turn their backs on Christ’s church? Let’s all desert Jesus in the Eucharist because there is sin in the church.

You may have been wronged terribly. But you refuse to hear what you have done now is WRONG. You’ve turn your back on Christ’s church, you’ve turned your back on the sacraments.

Catechism of the Catholic Church
[769](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/769.htm’) “The Church . . . will receive *its perfection only in the glory of heaven,”*179 at the time of Christ’s glorious return. Until that day, "the Church progresses on her pilgrimage amidst this world’s persecutions and God’s consolations."180 Here below she knows that she is in exile far from the Lord, and longs for the full coming of the Kingdom, when she will "be united in glory with her king."181 The Church, and through her the world, will not be perfected in glory without great trials. Only then will "all the just from the time of Adam, ‘from Abel, the just one, to the last of the elect,’ . . . be gathered together in the universal Church in the Father’s presence."182

**“Outside the Church there is no salvation” **

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
You are hurting yourself and you are risking your soul because of anger and bitterness has made you turn your back on the bride of Christ. I will keep you in my prayers.

 

[formercatholic]

Dear Rayne,

I have not turned my back on the Bride of Christ, I am a living witness to her to turn from her Adultery and be cleansed of it. I just will not join her in her adultery.

I will return to her when she realizes what she is doing. I am faithful, she is not.
Please do pray for me though.

 

[Fitz]

formercatholic:

Having seen what I have, I know that what I have proposed is for the good of the Church. I will return to her, running, when I see her move in a direction of real healing and not what she is wrongly doing now. For now, I pray that some wise Bishops will listen to those of us who have been discarded but who wait for them to listen to us, for the good of all of the children(adult children too).

I will pray formercatholic that you can let go of you anger and feel God’s love for you. I know you feel the way you do because of some injustice. I think when we have been wronged by the people of our church or the clergy of our church then it takes the hand and heart of God to heal. We all know that God is capable of this healing. I myself for years was repulsed in church and I know that this healing I am talking about can take place. I want if for you and I will pray for it for you.

To all the rest of you sorry about straying from the topic. Manuelman, I think like some have posted before me that the validity of the marriage is based on times before you were born. It is not that you could not shed light on the 30 yrs. that you were there, but they do focus on the intent when entering marriage. I am sorry that you have felt sllighted in this process. It guess it would have made more sense if they would have at least talked to you to let you all know what was up. I am sorry you had to go through that.

 

[manualman]

Both went to catholic colleges before Vatican2, so they were well informed about the sacrament! The wedding was at a catholic church and complied with the norms in place at the time.

Neither can claim emotional or mental instability, abuse, substance abuse or infidelity (trust me, I’d have heard by now).

It is very hard for me, or anyone who knew my parents in marriage to to understand the word ‘annulment’ as anything other than the catholic word for divorce. To my way of seeing, this is the sin of scandal and damages the faith in profound ways.

formercatholic, I don’t know why you were suspended, but I will pray for you. That Christ will give you the grace to release your anger and give you the power to forgive both your former wife and the church.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Because they usually were not around before and at the time of the exchange of the Marriage vows. Which is the only time frame that an Annulment is generally concerned with.