Why are Catholics against Communism?

[St_Francis]

Whose to say that a form of communism can’t be formed that incorporates religion into society? It’s all up to God, you know. When the wheels turn, we will change. Maybe not right away, but in due season.

Why not? Because either the communist part would cease to be communist or the religious part would cease to be religious.

 

[TheTrueCentrist]

The OP asked about the position of the Catholic Church. The fact that some “Christians” of unknown denominations have tried to unite their religious beliefs and Communism is irrelevant to the topic.

People were dismissing communism as atheistic and therefore fundamentally opposed to Catholicism. However, it is wrong to say that communism is exclusively atheistic because there exist forms of communism built around religious principles. Whether or not Catholicism could support its own form of communism is a separate question.

 

[TheTrueCentrist]

It is precisely because God has given us free-will that some have brutalized and murdered others to promote Communism. It’s up to us to use our free-will wisely, with prudence, justice, fortitude and temperance.

As has been shown clearly, communal living in religious communities has never had, nor has, anything to do with the evil of Communism.

The evils of Communism are in imposing an evil system – this was seen in Apostolic times when such an imposition was established:
The Error of the Apostolici versus the Monastics
Here, it can be seen more clearly that St Augustine is comparing the error of the “Apostolics” with the monastics following, up to his time.

“The argument [of Saint Thomas] (Sed Contra, II-II, quest. 66, art. 2; also Summa Contra Gentiles, bk. 3:II, chap. 127, 8) supports this response perfectly. Saint Thomas, in effect, recalls the heresy of the Apostolici mentioned by Saint Augustine (“De Haeresibus,” no. 40, in P. L., vol. 42, col. 32): ‘The Apostolici,’ writes St. Augustine, ‘assumed that name with an extreme arrogance, because they refused from their communion married persons and those who possessed property, such as both monks and clerics who in considerable number are to be found in the Catholic Church. But the Apostolici are heretics precisely because, separating themselves from the Church, they consider condemned those who make use of these goods, of which they deprive themselves.’

“‘The heresy of the Apostolici does not lie in taking the vows of chastity and poverty: monks and numerous clerics do the same. But the error lies in wanting to impose the same discipline on all the faithful under pain of condemnation.’ And St. Thomas concludes: ‘It is, therefore, an error to say that it is not permitted for a man to possess property.’

“This response is of use a fortiori for the problem presented by the perfection of evangelical poverty. Religious life, be it in a monastery provided with an income or in a community living from alms, is a life of counsel, not of precept, and it cannot be imposed on everyone. Moreover, even from the point of view of the perfection of the spiritual life, St. Thomas shows that the evangelical counsel of poverty most absolutely does not prevent the rich from sanctifying themselves amidst riches: ‘Great was the virtue of Abraham, who, possessing great riches, nonetheless knew how to keep his heart free from love for his riches. . . .’ ”
tinyurl.com/3uczz5d

That is a misunderstanding of communism. Communism does not necessarily advocate for the elimination of private possessions. It can simply advocates for the elimination of the private ownership of the means of production. In other words, you can have your own clothes, TV, and house, but not your own factory or farm.

 

[St_Francis]

People were dismissing communism as atheistic and therefore fundamentally opposed to Catholicism. However, it is wrong to say that communism is exclusively atheistic because there exist forms of communism built around religious principles. Whether or not Catholicism could support its own form of communism is a separate question.

Did you read the rest of the thread?

 

[Abu]

TheTrueCentrist, #42
Communism does not necessarily advocate for the elimination of private possessions.

How strange that anyone now feels that Communism has any good ideas – not Karl Marx, not the gulag, not the millions murdered, not the failed economies of Russia and the Eastern block. Even Putin et al dumped it to follow their own dictatorial prejudices.

Pius XI declared emphatically in Quadragesimo Anno, 1931, #120:
“We have also summoned Communism and Socialism again to judgment and have found all their forms, even the most modified, to wander far from the precepts of the Gospel.”

In Bl Pope John Paul II’s incisive analysis in his 1991 encyclical letter, *Centesimus Annus *even socialism is lambasted:
“13. Continuing our reflections, and referring also to what has been said in the Encyclicals Laborem exercens and Sollicitudo rei socialis, we have to add that the fundamental error of socialism is anthropological in nature. Socialism considers the individual person simply as an element, a molecule within the social organism, so that the good of the individual is completely subordinated to the functioning of the socio-economic mechanism.

“27: “Many individual, social, regional and national injustices were committed during and prior to the years in which Communism dominated; much hatred and ill-will have accumulated. There is a real danger that these will re-explode after the collapse of dictatorship, provoking serious conflicts and casualties, should there be a lessening of the moral commitment and conscious striving to bear witness to the truth which were the inspiration for past efforts. It is to be hoped that hatred and violence will not triumph in people’s hearts, especially among those who are struggling for justice, and that all people will grow in the spirit of peace and forgiveness.”

It’s high time to face reality – there is no “form of communism” that Christ will support through His Church; not now, not ever.

 

[Robert_Sock]

It’s high time to face reality – there is no “form of communism” that Christ will support through His Church; not now, not ever.

You should say: “God willing.” Otherwise, you sound a little too sure of yourself.

 

[Abu]

Robert Sock
To: It’s high time to face reality – there is no “form of communism” that Christ will support through His Church; not now, not ever.
You should say: “God willing.” Otherwise, you sound a little too sure of yourself.

When you query the emphatic judgment of a Pope on a matter of belief, you are dissenting, and this is illicit. Condemned are Karl Marx’s Communism: the evidence of failure is its gulag, the millions murdered, and the failure of its economic slavery.

Pius XI declared emphatically in Quadragesimo Anno, 1931, #120:
“We have also summoned Communism and Socialism again to judgment and have found all their forms, even the most modified, to wander far from the precepts of the Gospel.”

 

[St_Francis]

You should say: “God willing.” Otherwise, you sound a little too sure of yourself.

It is not himself he is sure of but the Church. Of course God is willing that the Church not embrace error!

 

[Robert_Sock]

It is not himself he is sure of but the Church. Of course God is willing that the Church not embrace error!

As St Paul states: In all things, God works for good. That means whether socialistic or capitalistic, God works for the good. When the pendulum swings, change will occur. Not all forms of socialism or communism are evil.

 

[Robert_Sock]

When you query the emphatic judgment of a Pope on a matter of belief, you are dissenting, and this is illicit. Condemned are Karl Marx’s Communism: the evidence of failure is its gulag, the millions murdered, and the failure of its economic slavery.

Pius XI declared emphatically in Quadragesimo Anno, 1931, #120:
“We have also summoned Communism and Socialism again to judgment and have found all their forms, even the most modified, to wander far from the precepts of the Gospel.”

It’s easy to imagine a form of socialism that does not murder or induce economic slavery. Christ was a socialist at heart; He did good to people without any expectations of profit. To see socialism as a necessary evil is to act blindly. Capitalism is far more a system of slavery than an idealized form of socialism. May peace, love and hope reign on us all!

 

[Abu]

Robert Sock
It’s easy to imagine a form of socialism that does not murder or induce economic slavery. Christ was a socialist at heart; He did good to people without any expectations of profit. To see socialism as a necessary evil is to act blindly.

Such a runaway imagination from Communism to Socialism is easily corrected by listening to Christ through His Church, not by going around in circles getting nowhere fast.
The Sock dogma that “Christ was a socialist at heart” is a Sock religion which portrays Popes as acting “blindly”, and ignoring the explicit condemnation already clearly given (posts #44, 46):

Pius XI declared emphatically in Quadragesimo Anno, 1931, #120:
“We have also summoned Communism and Socialism again to judgment and have found all their forms, even the most modified, to wander far from the precepts of the Gospel.”

Capitalism is far more a system of slavery than an idealized form of socialism

.
Apparently the church of Sock has no use for Christ’s Supreme Vicars as Bl John Paul II acclaimed the free economy in Centesimus Annus, 1991:
‘Returning now to the initial question: can it perhaps be said that, after the failure of Communism, capitalism is the victorious social system, and that capitalism should be the goal of the countries now making efforts to rebuild their economy and society? Is this the model which ought to be proposed to the countries of the Third World which are searching for the path to true economic and civil progress?
‘The answer is obviously complex. If by “capitalism” is meant an economic system which recognizes the fundamental and positive role of business, the market, private property and the resulting responsibility for the means of production, as well as free human creativity in the economic sector, then the answer is certainly in the affirmative, even though it would perhaps be more appropriate to speak of a “business economy”, “market economy” or simply “free economy”.’

Surely it is time that you started studying these important documents.

 

[GEddie]

As St Paul states: In all things, God works for good. That means whether socialistic or capitalistic, God works for the good. When the pendulum swings, change will occur. Not all forms of socialism or communism are evil.

Socialism != communism, although to us USAniks, they may look the same. Certainly there is a place for more societal cooperation in human wellbeing here in USA, although “socialism” is currently a dirty word here.

Apart from it’s rejection of religion (which alone would disallow it for Catholics) the major failing of communism is it’s lack of allowance for human failings. Capitalism has inherent control pathways: competition keeps prices from going too high or quality from
going too low; desire for profit creates productive incentive and entrepreneurism, etc. In communism, altruism is depended on to keep someone with high ability but low needs at a Marxian level of performance; when altruism fails, force is the plan B, and the nature of human beings is such that plan B is always in action.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Robert_Sock]

Such a runaway imagination from Communism to Socialism is easily corrected by listening to Christ through His Church, not by going around in circles getting nowhere fast.
The Sock dogma that “Christ was a socialist at heart” is a Sock religion which portrays Popes as acting “blindly”, and ignoring the explicit condemnation already clearly given (posts #44, 46):

Pius XI declared emphatically in Quadragesimo Anno, 1931, #120:
“We have also summoned Communism and Socialism again to judgment and have found all their forms, even the most modified, to wander far from the precepts of the Gospel.”
.
Apparently the church of Sock has no use for Christ’s Supreme Vicars as Bl John Paul II acclaimed the free economy in Centesimus Annus, 1991:
‘Returning now to the initial question: can it perhaps be said that, after the failure of Communism, capitalism is the victorious social system, and that capitalism should be the goal of the countries now making efforts to rebuild their economy and society? Is this the model which ought to be proposed to the countries of the Third World which are searching for the path to true economic and civil progress?
‘The answer is obviously complex. If by “capitalism” is meant an economic system which recognizes the fundamental and positive role of business, the market, private property and the resulting responsibility for the means of production, as well as free human creativity in the economic sector, then the answer is certainly in the affirmative, even though it would perhaps be more appropriate to speak of a “business economy”, “market economy” or simply “free economy”.’

Surely it is time that you started studying these important documents.

Surely it’s time for you to recognize that it’s all up to God. Just because communism failed miserably in the past is no reason that it will fail in the future, especially as people develop deep moral values. Will such a change come during our lifetime? Probably not. Capitalism simply has too much greed attached to it to make it a viable system of government in a morally advanced society.

 

[St_Francis]

Surely it’s time for you to recognize that it’s all up to God. Just because communism failed miserably in the past is no reason that it will fail in the future, especially as people develop deep moral values. Will such a change come during our lifetime? Probably not. Capitalism simply has too much greed attached to it to make it a viable system of government in a morally advanced society.

No, God cannot make communism and socialism good, any more than He could make 2+2=17. They are simply bad in and of themselves, because they adhere to lies and are built on lies.

It is not a question of their working if people become more moral, because the two systems are inherently immoral.

It would be like my insisting that if only I could get good enough rubber, I could make square tires.

Capitalism has too much greed attached to it because our society has abandoned God.

 

[St_Francis]

As St Paul states: In all things, God works for good. That means whether socialistic or capitalistic, God works for the good. When the pendulum swings, change will occur. Not all forms of socialism or communism are evil.

The fact that God can bring good out of evil does not in any diminish the evil of the acts that the wicked commit. Would you have us put people in concentration camps so that another saint could be made?

 

[JHow]

… Just because communism failed miserably in the past is no reason that it will fail in the future…

Yes. And slamming the door on your fingers might not hurt the next time either.

 

[GEddie]

I think that what everybody means by “socialism” and “communism” needs to be defined better.

Communism of the Marxian type is wrong because it denies God, persecutes religion, and relies on force to replace the missing altruism that it’s principles require. Socialism, however, is a much cloudier concept. We can’t say that it is wrong because we can’t really tell what it is.

And while CCCP communism is wrong, the “stand or die on your own two feet” mentality of Americanism is hardly the Christian ideal, either. The truth must lie somewhere between them.

ICXC NIKA.

 

[Cirdan_XII]

I mean, I thought an idea in Catholicism is to get out of consumerism and having a materialistic mentality, and isn’t the religious vow of poverty the same thing as communism?

One tenet of Catholicism is that we have freedom of will. We can accept or reject the way that God intends for us. For example we can choose whether or not we help the poor and give to charity. We can choose whether we receive the sacraments and how we live our lives. In Communism this freedom is taken away. The Government looks after the poor, which is not something that Jesus ever advocated as it goes contrary to the principle of Charity. The Government tries to diminish the role of the Church and discourages people from attending because they are afraid of the Church.

Capitalism is also wrong BTW because it teaches greed and materialism. It teaches that the more toys a man accumulates during his life, the more succesful he is and fails to address what will happen to him the life hereafter.

 

[RyanK]

Surely it’s time for you to recognize that it’s all up to God. Just because communism failed miserably in the past is no reason that it will fail in the future, especially as people develop deep moral values. Will such a change come during our lifetime? Probably not. Capitalism simply has too much greed attached to it to make it a viable system of government in a morally advanced society.

Pius XI declared emphatically in Quadragesimo Anno, 1931, #120:
“We have also summoned Communism and Socialism again to judgment and have found all their forms, even the most modified, to wander far from the precepts of the Gospel.”

Either a.) You agree with the Pope or b.) You disagree with the Pope and thus call him wrong in his statement, in which case we have a bigger issue here.

 

[manualman]

I mean, I thought an idea in Catholicism is to get out of consumerism and having a materialistic mentality, and isn’t the religious vow of poverty the same thing as communism?

The problem with communism (and all utopian schemes) is a failure to comprehend human nature. Communism will actually work great in heaven! But on an earth populated by sinful humans, it’s a recipe for not just disaster, but genocide. Literally a hundred million plus people were killed in the name of communism (probably just in the Stalin and Mao period alone!).

Denouncing the greedy and cruel capitalists is fine and good, but fails to recognize that those who replace them in communist states generally end up worse because they hold MORE power than the robber barons previously did.

Instead, catholic social principles encourage a form of free market system where people hold private property, but the system is fundamentally stacked against robber baronism. Real economies tend to err on either side of that ideal, but generally the further you get from it, the more unjust the system.