Why are Catholics against Communism?

[St_Francis]

One tenet of Catholicism is that we have freedom of will. We can accept or reject the way that God intends for us. For example we can choose whether or not we help the poor and give to charity. We can choose whether we receive the sacraments and how we live our lives. In Communism this freedom is taken away. The Government looks after the poor, which is not something that Jesus ever advocated as it goes contrary to the principle of Charity. The Government tries to diminish the role of the Church and discourages people from attending because they are afraid of the Church.

Socilism is a systems in which a few control the entire economy. Communism is socialism which requires a physical revolution to start off, positing various other ideas like class enmity.

Capitalism is also wrong BTW because it teaches greed and materialism. It teaches that the more toys a man accumulates during his life, the more succesful he is and fails to address what will happen to him the life hereafter.

Capitalism as a system does not teach greed and materialism, but if it is implemented in a greedy materialistic culture, it will be perverted into a greedy materialistic system.

 

[Robert_Sock]

You guys are thinking of communism in the same old way. My prediction is that communism will work great once the religious values of society are in place. We need to become a world of religious faith. Imagine, for example, how the world would change if it became known for certain that there is a Hereafter and salvation is necessary. Imagine the change in social cognition!

 

[GEddie]

You guys are thinking of communism in the same old way. My prediction is that communism will work great once the religious values of society are in place. We need to become a world of religious faith. Imagine, for example, how the world would change if it became known for certain that there is a Hereafter and salvation is necessary. Imagine the change in social cognition!

How do you imagine that would happen? Religious belief was once universal; atheism is a modern innovation, which surfaced because it is NOT known “for certain that there is a Hereafter”. What will bring that certainty to be?

ICXC NIKA

 

[Abu]

GEddie, #52
Capitalism simply has too much greed attached to it to make it a viable system of government in a morally advanced society.
#56: And while CCCP communism is wrong, the “stand or die on your own two feet” mentality of Americanism is hardly the Christian ideal, either. The truth must lie somewhere between them.
#61: My prediction is that communism will work great once the religious values of society are in place.
Cirdan XII, #57
Capitalism is also wrong BTW because it teaches greed and materialism. It teaches that the more toys a man accumulates during his life, the more succesful he is and fails to address what will happen to him the life hereafter.

You will continue to be mired in confusion and error until you learn and understand that free enterprise:

1. Is NOT a system of government; democracy is; Communism and Socialism are. “Americanism” can mean whatever you choose and so is useless.
2. Free enterprise is an economic system developed by Catholics
   From the great monastic estates in the ninth century, immense increases in agricultural productivity grew from “such significant innovations as the switch to horses, the heavy moldboard plow, and the three-field system” away from subsistence agriculture to specialised crops and products, sold at a profit to initiate a cash economy. “As their incomes continued to mount, this led many monasteries to become banks, lending to the nobility.” The Victory of Reason, Rodney Stark, Random House, 2005, p 58].

Randall Collins has noted that innovation and specialization in the monastic estates was “a version of the developed characteristics of capitalism itself… the dynamism of the medieval economy was primarily that of the Church.” [Randall Collins, *The Sociology of Philosophies: A Global Theory of Intellectual Change, 1998, Cambridge: Harvard University Press, p 47].

1. Is based on the laws of cause and effect discovered by the great Late Scholastics of the Catholic Church
   The Late Scholastics who were Thomists (followers of St Thomas) “writing and teaching at the University of Salamanca in Spain, sought to explain the full range of human action and social; organization.” They “observed the existence of economic law, inexorable forces of cause and effect that operate very much as other natural laws. Over the course of several generations, they discovered and explained the laws of supply and demand, the cause of inflation, the operation of foreign exchange rates, and the subjective nature of economic value…” For these reasons Joseph Schumpeter applauded them as the first real economists. (Thomas E Woods Jr, The Church And The Market, Lexington Books, 2005, p 8).
2. Economics “is the study of the formal applications that can be deduced from the fact that human beings act purposefully. It does not consider whether these actions are good or bad (an ethical question. Economic science is value free. It analyses cause and effect relationships that, if true, are scientific….only human acts can be judged morally.” (Dr Alejandro Chafuen, Christians For Freedom, Ignatius, 1986, p 33).

It is NOT free enterprise which is in error, it is PEOPLE who can be greedy. That’s why we have laws to seek and punish those who steal, cheat, swindle, institute monopolies, and worse crimes. That’s why we have the Catholic Church to guide us – She who invented charity in the West. It’s time to face reality.

So free enterprise does NOT “teach” anyone to be “greedy”. That is precisely why Pope Benedict XVI teaches clearly that “Society does not have to protect itself from the market, as if the development of the latter were ipso facto to entail the death of authentically human relations…Therefore it is not the instrument that must be called to account, but individuals, their moral conscience and their personal and social responsibility.” (Caritas et Veritate, Benedict XVI, 2009, #36). [My emphasis].

The collapse of morals in society affects everyone who succumbs – abortion, contraception, euthanasia, same-sex “marriage”, fornication, adultery, divorce, mutilation of conscience and, as anything goes – greed, envy, class warfare.

 

[St_Francis]

You guys are thinking of communism in the same old way.

And why shouldn’t we? Communism started with a revolution, was maintained by murderous force, and finally died an abject failure in its central headquarters.

How many millions died before the stupendous lie collapsed? And how many more will die in the current communistic nations before people who think that man can bring good oit of evil will see the wickedness of this system?

My prediction is that communism will work great once the religious values of society are in place.

Once “the religious values of society arre in place”, by which I assume you mean once all of us have become perfect, holy, and Catholic, no mere man-made system will be necessary. Of course, that will only happen after Christ has returned and the general resurrection of the dead occurred.

We need to become a world of religious faith.

What do you think we need to have faith in?

Imagine, for example, how the world would change if it became known for certain that there is a Hereafter and salvation is necessary.

God sent His Son here 2000 years ago. I don’t think the problem is a lack of knowledge…

Imagine the change in social cognition!

What is social cognition?

 

[JimG]

Even aside from the Church’s continued and constant condemnation of Communism, the unimaginable death and destruction caused by those regimes where it has been put into effect ought to dissuade anyone from considering it.

Put into place by revolution, maintained by oppression and tyranny, flowering into murder and starvation, Communism’s evil fruit is ample reason for avoidance.

 

[Robert_Sock]

I’m a wholehearted believer in large corporations. They are the ones that know how to produce most efficiently. I believe they will one day guide the world in a way that is anti-capitalistic. Just look at the way our world changed so drastically fast over the past 150 years; all because of large corporations. Look at the innovations that we gained through corporations; innovations that our world would not have known if it were not for large corporations. Need I say more?

 

[St_Francis]

I’m a wholehearted believer in large corporations. They are the ones that know how to produce most efficiently. I believe they will one day guide the world in a way that is anti-capitalistic. Just look at the way our world changed so drastically fast over the past 150 years; all because of large corporations. Look at the innovations that we gained through corporations; innovations that our world would not have known if it were not for large corporations. Need I say more?

It sounds ike you are saying that the choi e is between communism and corporatism. Since communism has been unequivocally condemned by the Church, and since the other is a form of economic libertaianism which has also been condemned by the Church, I would say that either way, you are wrong.

 

[Robert_Sock]

It sounds ike you are saying that the choi e is between communism and corporatism. Since communism has been unequivocally condemned by the Church, and since the other is a form of economic libertaianism which has also been condemned by the Church, I would say that either way, you are wrong.

I may be incorrect in terms of that status quo or “idealism”, but just wait for reality to sink in. Corporatism is just too innovative and practicable to ignore.

Again, it’s all in the hands of God. In the long run, what God wills is what will happen.

 

[St_Francis]

I may be incorrect in terms of that status quo or “idealism”, but just wait for reality to sink in. Corporatism is just too innovative and practicable to ignore.

I don’t understand what you mean by this, and I am especially confused given your previois statements in support of communism.

Again, it’s all in the hands of God. In the long run, what God wills is what will happen.

Wow, and you seem to completely misunderstand the concept of God’s will.

God’s will for us is that we all be perfectly holy. Unfortunately, since the Fall we have had to live under a combination of God’s actual will for us and His permissive will, which alludes to the times when He permits us to go astray.

We should always pray to understand God’s actual will for us and for the grace to carry it out. Communism is not part of God’s actual will for us. Neither is corporatism. We can in no way abdicate our activity in favor of a heretical quietism in which we do nothing to forward God’s actual will.

 

[Trevor_Stamm]

I’m a wholehearted believer in large corporations. They are the ones that know how to produce most efficiently. I believe they will one day guide the world in a way that is anti-capitalistic. Just look at the way our world changed so drastically fast over the past 150 years; all because of large corporations. Look at the innovations that we gained through corporations; innovations that our world would not have known if it were not for large corporations. Need I say more?

The world is the bad shape, and not good as you will paint it, because of corporatism and bank-ism. We have never seen true capitalism flourish, it has always been suppressed by large corporations and the banking gangsters (namely thanks to Mayer Rothschild), such as the cartel that occupies the Federal Reserve Board.

The main problem with corporatism, the banking cartel, communism, socialism etc… is it all fails to place the human individual and family as the central theme. With true capitalism that places the greater good of humanity first, and profits second, only then will it flourish.

 

[Robert_Sock]

The world is the bad shape, and not good as you will paint it, because of corporatism and bank-ism. We have never seen true capitalism flourish, it has always been suppressed by large corporations and the banking gangsters (namely thanks to Mayer Rothschild), such as the cartel that occupies the Federal Reserve Board.

The main problem with corporatism, the banking cartel, communism, socialism etc… is it all fails to place the human individual and family as the central theme. With true capitalism that places the greater good of humanity first, and profits second, only then will it flourish.

But how can the “true capitalism” you speak about possibly compete with the innovation and practicality of corporatism? Let us see how any human individual has the innate wit to efficiently mass produce simple boxes of toothpicks. Individuals simply cannot begin to compete with corporations. More than anything else, corporations are the “glue” that holds America together. Do away with the large corporation and we’re headed back to the dark ages.

 

[Trevor_Stamm]

But how can the “true capitalism” you speak about possibly compete with the innovation and practicality of corporatism? Let us see how any human individual has the innate wit to efficiently mass produce simple boxes of toothpicks. Individuals simply cannot begin to compete with corporations. More than anything else, corporations are the “glue” that holds America together. Do away with the large corporation and we’re headed back to the dark ages.

Your innovations, cheap costs, high profit margins are due to slave labor camps in eastern countries where corporatism has bought off governments to ignore what they do to their own people. This has always been the case throughout the centuries, thus corporatism will never work in an environment where they must pay wages according to regional living costs and high-grade materials to compete with other companies. When large corporations are done paying a dollar a day to slave laborers for 10-12 hour days, we can talk until then they are the height of greed, corruption, and disregard for humanity.

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

No, not quite. The Catholic Church is against Communism because it goes against human nature and denies the dignity of man by not permitting people to keep their fruits of the labor.

Not permitting religion is part of it, but the Church would still be against Communism even if religion were allowed.

I would think it would not be charity to steal from one to distribute to another as well.

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

The world is the bad shape, and not good as you will paint it, because of corporatism and bank-ism. We have never seen true capitalism flourish, it has always been suppressed by large corporations and the banking gangsters (namely thanks to Mayer Rothschild), such as the cartel that occupies the Federal Reserve Board.

The main problem with corporatism, the banking cartel, communism, socialism etc… is it all fails to place the human individual and family as the central theme. With true capitalism that places the greater good of humanity first, and profits second, only then will it flourish.

Agreed.

 

[GEddie]

The world is the bad shape, and not good as you will paint it, because of corporatism and bank-ism. We have never seen true capitalism flourish, it has always been suppressed by large corporations and the banking gangsters (namely thanks to Mayer Rothschild), such as the cartel that occupies the Federal Reserve Board.

The main problem with corporatism, the banking cartel, communism, socialism etc… is it all fails to place the human individual and family as the central theme. With true capitalism that places the greater good of humanity first, and profits second, only then will it flourish.

True capitalism LEADS to corporatism, that is the natural growth pattern of the corporation as “BODY.”

Corporations cannot lead AWAY from capitalism any more than government can lead away from the state, or the body lead away from being alive.

Ultimately, all social “isms” lead only to human death.

ICXC NIKA

 

[St_Francis]

I would think it would not be charity to steal from one to distribute to another as well.

Let me start by saying that I used to totally agree with your point of view.

But what I fpund out was that the Catholic point of view is more nuanced. While the Church would not see taxes which you pay and which are then used to help the poor as charity, the Church still sees that the government does have the obligation to ensure that the poor are helped. So the Church would not see taxing the haves to helpthe have-nots as doing something wrong but as doing something right.

St Thomas Aquinas discusses distributive justice as being justice wrt the dealngs between society and individuals rather than only between individuals (which is commutative justice). Since God made everything for all of us, it is one of the tasks of society (in its institutionalization of the government) to ensure that people all benefit from what God made.

Now, afaict, this does not mean that the highest branch of government takes over all distribution of goods–that woud violate subsidiarity and move into socilaism. However, if there are people in need due to a lack of charity (which could be either because people can not or because people will not), then the appropriate level of government ought to step in to ensure that each has the help he needs. And an even higher level might need to do something to help.

So, merely using tax dollars to help the poor is not at all against Catholic teaching; however, Pope John Paul II pointed out that removing too much responsibility for the closer authorities could also be harmful to society and even the needy themselves.

Like so much in Catholicism, there’s a fine line between too little and too much.

 

[Trevor_Stamm]

True capitalism LEADS to corporatism, that is the natural growth pattern of the corporation as “BODY.”

Corporations cannot lead AWAY from capitalism any more than government can lead away from the state, or the body lead away from being alive.

Ultimately, all social “isms” lead only to human death.

ICXC NIKA

Absolutely capitalism leads to corporatism, and also true it is natural when it is in an environment that is egocentric. To quote the Catechism (2425) “She has likewise refused to accept, in the practice of “capitalism,” individualism and the absolute primacy of the law of the marketplace over human labor.” The seeds of capitalism needs to be planted in the soils of a society that is fully occupied by good people, by this the course of corporatism can be ultimately avoided and willful distribution of goods can take place. This is the only ism that can practiced, least you want to force people to redistribute their wealth then we are talking socialism which is an ultimate route to communism, where the will of the oligarchy is final and the state is the central theme.

 

[St_Francis]

Absolutely capitalism leads to corporatism, and also true it is natural when it is in an environment that is egocentric. To quote the Catechism (2425) “She has likewise refused to accept, in the practice of “capitalism,” individualism and the absolute primacy of the law of the marketplace over human labor.” The seeds of capitalism needs to be planted in the soils of a society that is fully occupied by good people, by this the course of corporatism can be ultimately avoided and willful distribution of goods can take place. This is the only ism that can practiced, least you want to force people to redistribute their wealth then we are talking socialism which is an ultimate route to communism, where the will of the oligarchy is final and the state is the central theme.

I don’t think that corporatism is an inevitable outcome of a free market unless we allow corporate ownership, stocks and all that.

When multiple people own an enterprise, responsibility is diffused. When dividends are paid out, then morality flies out the window. And when a stock market is involved, short-term considerations overrun any others.

Corporations are a really bad idea.

 

[Abu]

St Francis #76
So, merely using tax dollars to help the poor is not at all against Catholic teaching; however, Pope John Paul II pointed out that removing too much responsibility for the closer authorities could also be harmful to society and even the needy themselves.

That is correct.
What is emphatically condemned is the Welfare State – from Bl John Paul II in Centesimus Annus, 1991:
#48. “Another task of the State is that of overseeing and directing the exercise of human rights in the economic sector. However, primary responsibility in this area belongs not to the State but to individuals and to the various groups and associations which make up society. The State could not directly ensure the right to work for all its citizens unless it controlled every aspect of economic life and restricted the free initiative of individuals. This does not mean, however, that the State has no competence in this domain, as was claimed by those who argued against any rules in the economic sphere. Rather, the State has a duty to sustain business activities by creating conditions which will ensure job opportunities, by stimulating those activities where they are lacking or by supporting them in moments of crisis.

“In recent years the range of such intervention has vastly expanded, to the point of creating a new type of State, the so-called “Welfare State”. This has happened in some countries in order to respond better to many needs and demands, by remedying forms of poverty and deprivation unworthy of the human person. However, excesses and abuses, especially in recent years, have provoked very harsh criticisms of the Welfare State, dubbed the “Social Assistance State”. Malfunctions and defects in the Social Assistance State are the result of an inadequate understanding of the tasks proper to the State. Here again the principle of subsidiarity must be respected: a community of a higher order should not interfere in the internal life of a community of a lower order, depriving the latter of its functions, but rather should support it in case of need and help to coordinate its activity with the activities of the rest of society, always with a view to the common good.”

Fr Robert Sirico has examined this error in the U.S.A.
robertsirico.com/
**Tuesday, May 31, 2011, by Fr. Robert Sirico
Not Whether to Help the Poor, But How **
Extract:
“At the root of the incredulity and exasperation of some Catholics who mix fair arguments with vitriol is an incapacity to recognize that we really believe that many government programs aggravate rather than ameliorate poverty and other social ills. Rather than debating the prudence of the policies at hand, detractors resort to ad hominem attacks and pronounce anathemas selectively. Yet there is by this time a vast literature on the damage wrought by the war on poverty and its failure to achieve its goals. Such critics can continue to believe that shoveling government money into welfare programs discharges Catholic social teaching’s obligation to assist the poor if they wish, but their inability to see other views as reasonable, at least, is distressingly myopic.”