Why are Catholics against Communism?

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I don’t think that corporatism is an inevitable outcome of a free market unless we allow corporate ownership, stocks and all that.

When multiple people own an enterprise, responsibility is diffused. When dividends are paid out, then morality flies out the window. And when a stock market is involved, short-term considerations overrun any others.

Corporations are a really bad idea.
In which case, society would be limited to the Amish model of hand-to-mouth subsistence; as no technological system is possible without large-scale capitalization.

Problem is, people will always want more than that, and so incorporation is inevitable.

ICXC NIKA
 
In which case, society would be limited to the Amish model of hand-to-mouth subsistence; as no technological system is possible without large-scale capitalization.

Problem is, people will always want more than that, and so incorporation is inevitable.

ICXC NIKA
Well, that’s your opinion. The Amish do not progress technologically because they limit their use of technology (altho they have great ability in converting electric machines to gas power 😉 ).

But automobiles, penecillin, vaccines, and radioactivity were all invented/discovered/developed by individuals. The automobile industry started off as a lot of little machine shops making different parts.
 
:rotfl:

The world is the bad shape, and not good as you will paint it, because of corporatism and bank-ism. We have never seen true capitalism flourish, it has always been suppressed by large corporations and the banking gangsters (namely thanks to Mayer Rothschild), such as the cartel that occupies the Federal Reserve Board.

The main problem with corporatism, the banking cartel, communism, socialism etc… is it all fails to place the human individual and family as the central theme. With true capitalism that places the greater good of humanity first, and profits second, only then will it flourish.
Corporatism has nothing to do with large corporations. Corporatism is an economic system in which workers own and control the means of production. It’s a bit similar to communism but the difference is that the corporations remain independent of the state. Corporatism is connected to Fascism politically. So in corporatism, small companies are okay but once they exceed a certain size they are corporated, so basically its capitalism on a micro-economic level but socialism on the macro level.
 
I’m a wholehearted believer in large corporations. They are the ones that know how to produce most efficiently. I believe they will one day guide the world in a way that is anti-capitalistic. Just look at the way our world changed so drastically fast over the past 150 years; all because of large corporations. Look at the innovations that we gained through corporations; innovations that our world would not have known if it were not for large corporations. Need I say more?
You will find that large corporations are opposed to innovation.

Most great inventors started off in garages and backyards and grew into big companies from there.

Change is dangerous for a big company because it means moving away from what they can do well towards something that maybe they can’t do well. Innovation is disruptive and the consequences are not always clear. Disruptive innovation is the domain of the small guys who have nothing to lose.

Cars were not invented by horse breeders or carriage-makers. The postal service was not invented by pigeon breeders. Computers were not invented by slide-rule manufacturers. If anything, incumbents prevent and slow down innovation. It is outsiders that advance it. But ultimately they ultimately become so large that they too oppose rather than advance innovation.
 
Corporatism has nothing to do with large corporations. Corporatism is an economic system in which workers own and control the means of production. It’s a bit similar to communism but the difference is that the corporations remain independent of the state. Corporatism is connected to Fascism politically. So in corporatism, small companies are okay but once they exceed a certain size they are corporated, so basically its capitalism on a micro-economic level but socialism on the macro level.
Oh,dear, I didn’t know rhis and have been using the word the wrong way! Thanks for this information.
 
Well, that’s your opinion. The Amish do not progress technologically because they limit their use of technology (altho they have great ability in converting electric machines to gas power 😉 ).

But automobiles, penecillin, vaccines, and radioactivity were all invented/discovered/developed by individuals. The automobile industry started off as a lot of little machine shops making different parts.
But it didn’t stay that way.

The road culture we have now could not exist without the assembly line; and an assembly line cannot be run as a mom and pop enterprise.

Modern medicines would be unaffordable, and air transportation and electronics would not exist, without large scale capitalization. Even simple items like the light bulb would be too expensive if it depended upon family-owned workshops to make it.

Corporations are here to stay.

(Amishism allows gas power now? You learn something new every day :))

ICXC NIKA
 
But it didn’t stay that way.

The road culture we have now could not exist without the assembly line; and an assembly line cannot be run as a mom and pop enterprise.

Modern medicines would be unaffordable, and air transportation and electronics would not exist, without large scale capitalization. Even simple items like the light bulb would be too expensive if it depended upon family-owned workshops to make it.
Well, there are those who talk about cooperatives like Mondragon. I myself am still thinking through this, but I don’t see that all operatikns have to be “workshops”-- they wouldn’t have to stay in the garage. Maldin Mills was owned by one person (after a fire he experienced such financial difficulties that he ended up selling out, I think), so it is doable.

Right now, we have GE making everything from light bulbs to huge refrigerator units for restaurants. So while I see your point, I think the whole thing has gotten out of hand. All these big comapnies make many things. Why not have lots of little companies each making only one thing? There may be an economic advantage to having anlarger company assembling light bulbs, but none at all to adding on washing machine manufacture.

And my point is compounded when you consider how many of the parts and sometimes the whole item is made in non-GE factories.
Corporations are here to stay.
So was Pax Romana…
(Amishism allows gas power now? You learn something new every day :))
Oh, yeah, the Amish women were quite upset as various farming equipment was allowed, but nothing for the house!
 
I’m a wholehearted believer in large corporations. They are the ones that know how to produce most efficiently. I believe they will one day guide the world in a way that is anti-capitalistic. Just look at the way our world changed so drastically fast over the past 150 years; all because of large corporations. Look at the innovations that we gained through corporations; innovations that our world would not have known if it were not for large corporations. Need I say more?
I hope that you know that corporations are no longer what you paint them to be. They have now become monopolies that conquer the entire economy and because of this there is no sense of competition. Corporations have made it so that someone who has a great idea, such as an electric car, is bought out and then the idea is tucked away so that noone can use it. Also, these are the same corporations that are able to produce products cheap because they use cheap labor by exploiting workers in other countries. And idk, if you’ve noticed but our economy is doing terrible, just look at the value of the dollar. (You can know the value of the dollar by looking at how much gold cost because the value of gold never changes) I certainly agree that our world has changed drastically but not for the better. We now have so much techonology that our society has become extremely dehumanized. We no longer look eachother in the eyes on the streets or say hi to one another as we pass by. Sincerely asking someone how they’re doing and looking out for others has become “a good deed” when it should be normal. The majority of us as humans spend more time on a computer/ watching TV/ talking on the phone/ playing video games/ texting/ listening to music than we do actually going out and experiencing life with one another. So to say that corporations are great and chipper is not seeing the reality of things and understanding the fact that our economy as well as our society is in the crapper. lol. Corporations look at us as numbers/consumers, God looks at us as individuals with the potential to do amazing things. Also, simply look at the lack of a fear of God in our society and you can see the outcome of the materialism that has stemmed from the amount of useless products that these corporations mass produce and shove down our throats day after day. Heck, take a look at our living rooms, majority of them have a Television as the center focus. I certainly do not see corporations bringing more people to God, they are doing quite the opposite.
 
If able-bodied people who cheat the system refuse to put in an honest day’s work for their OWN benefit, why would anyone believe that these same individuals would put in an honest day’s work which would benefit “others,” which is what needs to happen in order for it to be successful? (hint: that’s why it doesn’t work)
 
If able-bodied people who cheat the system refuse to put in an honest day’s work for their OWN benefit, why would anyone believe that these same individuals would put in an honest day’s work which would benefit “others,” which is what needs to happen in order for it to be successful? (hint: that’s why it doesn’t work)
If the need for redemption was reveled so as to become real for all people, then you would see people lining up to put in an honest day’s work which would benefit others.

Same thing for spiritual rewards. People would work hard for spiritual rewards.
 
If the need for redemption was reveled so as to become real for all people, then you would see people lining up to put in an honest day’s work which would benefit others.

Same thing for spiritual rewards. People would work hard for spiritual rewards.
But then that would not be altruism any
more; it would be working for a self-centered goal , only “spiritual” rather than physical.

ICXC NIKA
 
But then that would not be altruism any
more; it would be working for a self-centered goal , only “spiritual” rather than physical.

ICXC NIKA
It can still be done out of LOVE for God!
 
If the need for redemption was reveled so as to become real for all people, then you would see people lining up to put in an honest day’s work which would benefit others.

Same thing for spiritual rewards. People would work hard for spiritual rewards.
Those who consecrate their lives to God and who work to benefit others have existed since the time of Christ. They do live in community, but as we have already seen earlier in this thread, monastic life is not socialistic or communistic. If the religious life could in any way be called communistic or socialistic, the popes would not have been able to so thoroughly condemn them.

Yes, it would be nice if everyone became a religious, a monk or a nun, but God us to a variety of vocations. While the consecrated life is a special level of life, that is not God’s will for each of us, and it is His will that we love in accordance with our states of life, no?

(And if everyone were to join a monstery or convent, there would be no need for corporations, either)
 
Those who consecrate their lives to God and who work to benefit others have existed since the time of Christ. They do live in community, but as we have already seen earlier in this thread, monastic life is not socialistic or communistic. If the religious life could in any way be called communistic or socialistic, the popes would not have been able to so thoroughly condemn them.

Yes, it would be nice if everyone became a religious, a monk or a nun, but God us to a variety of vocations. While the consecrated life is a special level of life, that is not God’s will for each of us, and it is His will that we love in accordance with our states of life, no?

(And if everyone were to join a monstery or convent, there would be no need for corporations, either)
If everybody entered religious life, the human race would become extinct, for obvious reasons. Clearly, that was never the will of God.

The fact remains that altruism is not a reliable motivator in the human world we have now. Communism depends on it: which makes it impractical. Capitalism has built-in checks and balances that work in a world of nonaltruistic, standard-issue human beings. That is why, absent any philosophical meddling (as happened in Marxism), it works so very well.

ICXC NIKA.
 
GEddie #93,
The fact remains that altruism is not a reliable motivator in the human world we have now. Communism depends on it: which makes it impractical. Capitalism has built-in checks and balances that work in a world of nonaltruistic, standard-issue human beings.
That Communism depends on “altruism” which is “unselfish concern for the welfare of others” is quite wrong. Not only was Marxist Communism contrary to essential Catholic doctrine it failed dismally, economically.

Pius XI declared emphatically in Quadragesimo Anno, 1931, #120:
“We have also summoned Communism and Socialism again to judgment and have found all their forms, even the most modified, to wander far from the precepts of the Gospel.” Condemned are Karl Marx’s Communism: the evidence of failure is its gulag, the millions murdered, and the failure of its economic slavery.

In Bl Pope John Paul II’s incisive analysis in his 1991 encyclical letter, Centesimus Annus:
“27: “Many individual, social, regional and national injustices were committed during and prior to the years in which Communism dominated; much hatred and ill-will have accumulated. There is a real danger that these will re-explode after the collapse of dictatorship, provoking serious conflicts and casualties, should there be a lessening of the moral commitment and conscious striving to bear witness to the truth which were the inspiration for past efforts. It is to be hoped that hatred and violence will not triumph in people’s hearts, especially among those who are struggling for justice, and that all people will grow in the spirit of peace and forgiveness.”

Free enterprise is an economic set of principles which are based on cause and effect.
Good government and virtuous people enable the best of sensible economics.
 
The principles of Communism depend on altruism, even if it’s embodiment resulted in something much different. “From each according to his ability; to each according to his need”. People of high need and low ability would be drawn to it, while those whose abilities and need were roughly the same, would have no reason to oppose it.

But those who truthfully held it together; those of high ability and low need – would only invest themselves in the system if they were altruistic. Most standard–issue human beings are not; so to keep it afloat, such things as the gulag were instituted to keep everybody under control.

God Bless, ICXC NIKA.
 
If the need for redemption was reveled so as to become real for all people, then you would see people lining up to put in an honest day’s work which would benefit others.

Same thing for spiritual rewards. People would work hard for spiritual rewards.
The funny thing about life is that there is only one able-bodied person we really need to take care of outside of the parenthood years: ourselves. If I find religion, you find religion, your spouse finds religion, everyone else finds religion, then we don’t need socialism or communism. The question beccomes: what are the obstacles which are dragging people away from true love, holiness, deep spirituality, peace, etc.? The answer is our culture. It has become too dirty and has lost the beauty of it’s innocence. The threat of torture is a worse choice than the reward of thrift and labor.
 
GEddie #95
The principles of Communism depend on altruism, even if it’s embodiment resulted in something much different. “From each according to his ability; to each according to his need”.
This is beating a dead horse.

Louis Blanc published in 1839 his study on L’Organisation du travail, and attributed all the evils that afflict society to the pressure of competition, whereby the weaker are driven to the wall. He demanded the equalization of wages, and the merging of personal interests in the common good – “à chacun selon ses besoins, de chacun selon ses facultés,” which is often translated as “from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs.” This was to be affected by the establishment of “social workshops,” a sort of combined co-operative society and trade-union, where the workmen in each trade were to unite their efforts for their common benefit.

When it comes to “from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs,” who gets to decide what those abilities and needs are?

When you implement “from each according to his ability, to each according to his need,” magically, everyone starts having quite a lot of need and very little ability. No unselfish concern for others here.

When the wealth is redistributed only the redistributers will have wealth!

Marx’s Communism picking up such a failed idea, failed dysmally because it
  1. Rejects God
  2. Promotes Class warfare
  3. Nationalises all land and productive property.
  4. Doesn’t understand human nature.
 
If the need for redemption was reveled so as to become real for all people, then you would see people lining up to put in an honest day’s work which would benefit others.

Same thing for spiritual rewards. People would work hard for spiritual rewards.
Ah, so you’re implying that the most successful people are putting in an honest day’s work and helping to redeem others by supplying jobs for others?
 
Socialism/Communism creates laziness by removing the motivation to create excellence. There will only be a one-time redistribution of our massive income because the high achievers will have no more motivation for high achievement, thus reducing the overall productivity. There will be no more CONTINUOUS high motivation and high cash flow as there is right now. This is what the dreamers on OWS fail to see. Socialism/Communism is a great plan if you hate the US. How about we lift the poor and the downtrodden by removing the distractions in their way? THIS will RAISE the overall average.
 
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