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Ani_Ibi
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Fair enough. So far comments have been about worldly attack against Protestants. My central question was about satanic attack. I am unaware of a Protestant equivalent of black mass. Is there one?
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myfavoritmartin
Guest
You kidding me? this site may be the most anti-bornagain/fundamentalist place on the world wide web (next to envoy any way!)
If you don’t see that its because you’ve not peeled the scales off your eyes!
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VociMike
Guest
Which makes it all the more bizarre (and inexcusable) that so many of these same Protestants spend such an inordinate amount of time doing the very same thing to the Catholic Church. Instead of recognizing that they should stand with their fellow Christians against the persecutions of the world, they join in those persecutions against the Catholic Church. That is simply not rational behavior, so it must come from some other motivation.
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Ani_Ibi
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Please remember your manners. As for scales: my question – as I have clarified – has mainly to do with satanic attacks, not worldly attacks. If you have any information please post it. If all you have is indignant rhetoric, then delay by all means.
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OneForTruth
Guest
We ought not attack Catholics…but, I will certainly disagree with and actively teach against some of the doctrines. You should as well while you love other Catholics.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
Martin, I do not think that you will find perversions of your church services (which is what was originally the topic, that the ‘black Mass’ is a perversion of a Catholic Mass, not a protestant service).
And as to misrepresentation of Protestant practices. . .I do not believe that, speaking for the majority of the Catholics who post here, that we go around telling Protestants that they practice something they do not. We may (being human) misunderstand something but when given accurate information, most of us have been happy to receive the information and careful to apologize if any inadvertent hurt was given.
Where there is a difference of opinion, not of what somebody actually does, but of the ‘mindset’ between the action, I do find that no matter how often Catholics announce that they do not worship statues, there are Protestants who refuse to accept the word of said Catholics and insist that, “yes you do”. That kind of willful and insulting refusal to listen, the presumption that we are ‘lying’, is something that is seen more on these forums, in more threads and by more people, brought up ‘independently’, then there might be a ‘response’ to an attack with “well, do you think Protestants worship the Bible when they kneel to read it”?–which statement is BTW NOT A CHARGE against Protestants but simply a verbal device meant to show that, if there is nothing wrong with a Protestant kneeling to read His Bible, as he does not ‘worship’ the book, there is nothing wrong with kneeling before a goodly person (or curtseying to the Queen of England), provided that the kneeling is not done with the object of ‘worship’. Respect is not worship, it’s a completely different thing as any Protestant will tell you regarding ‘kneeling to read the Bible’ --He is kneeling before God, using the Bible as a tool with which he enhances his worship through the reading of the Word of God; just as a Catholic, kneeling to God, may use a statue, or holy card, as a ‘tool’ to enhance that worship through the ‘communion of saints’, just as we ask our friends and relatives to kneel with us and pray to God with us.
And as to misrepresentation of Protestant practices. . .I do not believe that, speaking for the majority of the Catholics who post here, that we go around telling Protestants that they practice something they do not. We may (being human) misunderstand something but when given accurate information, most of us have been happy to receive the information and careful to apologize if any inadvertent hurt was given.
Where there is a difference of opinion, not of what somebody actually does, but of the ‘mindset’ between the action, I do find that no matter how often Catholics announce that they do not worship statues, there are Protestants who refuse to accept the word of said Catholics and insist that, “yes you do”. That kind of willful and insulting refusal to listen, the presumption that we are ‘lying’, is something that is seen more on these forums, in more threads and by more people, brought up ‘independently’, then there might be a ‘response’ to an attack with “well, do you think Protestants worship the Bible when they kneel to read it”?–which statement is BTW NOT A CHARGE against Protestants but simply a verbal device meant to show that, if there is nothing wrong with a Protestant kneeling to read His Bible, as he does not ‘worship’ the book, there is nothing wrong with kneeling before a goodly person (or curtseying to the Queen of England), provided that the kneeling is not done with the object of ‘worship’. Respect is not worship, it’s a completely different thing as any Protestant will tell you regarding ‘kneeling to read the Bible’ --He is kneeling before God, using the Bible as a tool with which he enhances his worship through the reading of the Word of God; just as a Catholic, kneeling to God, may use a statue, or holy card, as a ‘tool’ to enhance that worship through the ‘communion of saints’, just as we ask our friends and relatives to kneel with us and pray to God with us.
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VociMike
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But instead of “actively teaching against” fellow Christians (that is, against Catholics), would not the time of every evangelical and fundamentalist Christian be better spent actively teaching against the modern God-disdaining and God-hating world. I can see no possible justification for spending so much time teaching against fellow (Catholic)Christians when there is a world gone mad just outside the doors of every Protestant church. I think it is un-Christian in the very deepest sense, and I think those who engage in it at the expense of evangelizing the world will be held to account for their behavior.
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OneForTruth
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I must do BOTH. I find it important to correct those who say Muslims and Hindus will be saved without Christ (which the CCC explicitly says) AND I also must go to those Muslims and Hindus with the gospel (or whatever false religion for that matter).
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Mirdath
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Yeah, see, that’s pretty much it
Catholicism says ‘this is the natural law, graven by God on the human heart’ and expects Catholic and non-Catholic alike to recognize and follow it. It does not take into account other methods or explanations for deriving a moral code, or the vastly differing moral codes of various cultures. The oddly-beloved pop philosopher-manque Peter Kreeft calls Kant’s categorical imperative a ‘perfect philosophy for hell’ and names the devout Christian a ‘pillar of unbelief’ – all for having an idea that one can derive a system of morals based on a universal duty to others instead of a divine mandate.
Christians in general insist that what they perceive as the moral law, whether naturally present or handed down later by God, is the right perception. There’s nothing wrong with believing that; it’s when they tell people who don’t buy into their faith that they still have to follow their perception of the law and are hellbound if they don’t that non-Christians start having serious issues with them and may, perhaps, start kicking back.
Speaking for myself, I do not take offense at Christians practicing their beliefs. I don’t have a problem with spreading the gospel – while I don’t believe in it, there’s a lot in there that’s worth hearing out. But if a Christian is going to try to convince me that I must believe, of course I’m going to question it! And if that Christian says ‘okay, you don’t believe, but you still have to follow what we say about morality, and we’re going to make it law just to be sure you cooperate’, that I will fight.
That isn’t persecution. That’s me standing up for myself.
Ani Ibi:
Cite please?Bigfoot is Catholic.
Yes. And some Christians, Catholic and Protestant both, are truly persecuted and martyred. But the level claimed by people like Dobson, Chick, Robertson, Donohue, et al is ridiculous. For comprising 80-some percent of the population of the United States, a lot of Christians have an amazing persecution complex. Many choose to perceive every real or imagined slight or even mere disagreement as another lion loosed upon them by laughing Romans.
Now, this doesn’t cover all Christians by a long shot, but it covers a lot of the louder ones. It seems to me these people want to be persecuted and martyred, remembering the eighth beatitude a little too fondly and trying to actively fulfill it. And if they can’t have actual lions any more, then by crikey they’ll make them up! But where the martyrs fondly remembered and looked up to as role models go humbly and gracefully to their reward in heaven, these people scream of persecution at every opportunity.
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Tantum_ergo
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Why must you do both? Why must you attack one group, and not seek rather to embody your belief in your thoughts, words, and actions?
One thing that troubles me sometimes, and Mike has brought it up, is the difficulty that we Catholics experience here when a poster questions our faith --not the questioning itself, which is fine–but either the way the question is posed–the standard, “Why do you people go against God by ____?” or worse, the very reasonable question, which we answer, and then is followed up by, “No you don’t, you really do _______”, or statements that attack personally, refuse to acknowledge the answer, etc.
Then we are put into a ‘defensive’ position. Sometimes I will just walk away (with a prayer) if it is obvious that somebody just will not listen even if he or she has repeatedly been given the answer. But sometimes we just keep on hoping that love and reason will somehow find the way to the person’s heart. And sometimes, being human, we do have an anger --sometimes righteous, sometimes not–and then we have posters wailing about the “unChristian Catholics” who ‘refuse to listen’, etc. etc.
All this is very disheartening when one realizes that, if only the original attack (and let’s face it, it is more likely to be a non-Catholic who ‘attacks’ on these Catholic forums; we are talking here of the majority of situations) had not been made, both the Protestant and the Catholic would have been able to spend valuable time putting Christianity into action, and not fighting amongst themselves.
Mind you, I will never cease from ‘fighting for Christ’, but God grant that I am waging the CORRECT BATTLE, that it is not ‘against other people’ but instead against those ‘things’ which are against Christ. I respect the Christ in all humanity, even when I must, as gently as possible, correct them as He has commanded us to do in fraternal charity, knowing that I must be even MORE careful, humble, and observant that I MYSELF do not fail in His service.
One thing that troubles me sometimes, and Mike has brought it up, is the difficulty that we Catholics experience here when a poster questions our faith --not the questioning itself, which is fine–but either the way the question is posed–the standard, “Why do you people go against God by ____?” or worse, the very reasonable question, which we answer, and then is followed up by, “No you don’t, you really do _______”, or statements that attack personally, refuse to acknowledge the answer, etc.
Then we are put into a ‘defensive’ position. Sometimes I will just walk away (with a prayer) if it is obvious that somebody just will not listen even if he or she has repeatedly been given the answer. But sometimes we just keep on hoping that love and reason will somehow find the way to the person’s heart. And sometimes, being human, we do have an anger --sometimes righteous, sometimes not–and then we have posters wailing about the “unChristian Catholics” who ‘refuse to listen’, etc. etc.
All this is very disheartening when one realizes that, if only the original attack (and let’s face it, it is more likely to be a non-Catholic who ‘attacks’ on these Catholic forums; we are talking here of the majority of situations) had not been made, both the Protestant and the Catholic would have been able to spend valuable time putting Christianity into action, and not fighting amongst themselves.
Mind you, I will never cease from ‘fighting for Christ’, but God grant that I am waging the CORRECT BATTLE, that it is not ‘against other people’ but instead against those ‘things’ which are against Christ. I respect the Christ in all humanity, even when I must, as gently as possible, correct them as He has commanded us to do in fraternal charity, knowing that I must be even MORE careful, humble, and observant that I MYSELF do not fail in His service.
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VociMike
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Jesusstreet
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Luke 6:26 *Woe to you when men shall bless you: for according to these things did their fathers to the false prophets.
Luke 6:22 *Blessed shall you be when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man’s sake.
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Jesusstreet
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GOD bless you.
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OneForTruth
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841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."330
They do not have Christ - their religion renounces Christ and the gospel saying that Christ never died on the cross and rose…the very center of Christianity. SO…the CCC says that they will be saved without Christ.
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OneForTruth
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I already answered your question with my posting…
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Jesusstreet
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Do you think for a moment that Saint Peter was practicing a solemn Catholic Mass or a pentecostal or holy roller service? The fundements of the Liturgy have remained intact, unaltered, since the very first Mass conducted by the LORD himself at the Last Supper where the EUCHARIST was instituted . … remarking also all that JESUS said and did that passover is not written . … but the selection of detail in the Gospels is paramount to the insitituion of the EUCHARIST.Why are black masses perversions of the Catholic Mass and not perversions of denominational services?
What does the Adversary know about Catholicism that you don’t know?
Why would the Adversary be so determined to suppress Catholicism and not the denominations?
Why is anti-Catholicism the last socially acceptable prejudice?
:bible1:
Now if you know of any determined perversions and misrepresentations of Protestant practises, then please post em and let’s have it on the table. Thank you.
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myfavoritmartin
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841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”
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VociMike
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You quote without understanding. You have simply adopted your own narrow and rigid perception of what it means to “have Christ”.
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OneForTruth
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This is where the conversation stops. You are attempting to skirt your way around the clear teaching of scripture. Read Romans 10 clearly.
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VociMike
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That’s correct. Because you (your tradition) has rejected the fullness of Christ’s teachings, and the Church which he left to guard and pass on those teachings, you are left with your erroneous tradition of men and with no way to correct your error. That is indeed where the conversation stops.
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