Why are Catholics Pagans?

[Wormwood]

mercygate:

Um. Because we don’t control the secular culture. And you exaggerate the harm of them

What harm have I claimed? Why must you persist in making this about something that it isn’t?

Nativity of Our Lord pagan?

?? pagan here is an adjective.

Ah my mistake, it is hard to tell the implied meaning of a sentence fragment. I stand corrected.

Do a little homework. It actually isn’t all that difficult.

Why are you so bitter? This issue isn’t all the simple either. It is even further muddled when you insist on putting words in my mouth, and being condescending.

Ishtar? Only in German and English does the word “Easter” appear and it comes from “East.” Nothing to do with Ishtar.

Easter is the germanization of Ishtar. But I can see you skepticism. I mean the celebrations were very similar and at the same time of year and they even sound alike…hmmmm.
Get a websters unabridged and look up Ishtar/Easter and get back to me.

Nor did it prevent the development of a mature faith.

Ok so it was a completely nuetral experience…what’s the point?

Right. I worship a giant rabbit. And we have chocolate communion wafers, which I confuse with Jack Chick’s death cookie

Oh you worship chocolate? You really worship chocolate? You said you worshiped chocolate…that is what it is like trying to discuss this with you…you read what is not written, and then become defensive. I won’t be surprised when you quote this and really think, I think you worship chocolate.

 

[Mickey]

Wormwood:

Is this another case of early christians adapting to their pagan surroundings

No. It is the assimilation of pagans into the Christian culture.

Wormwood:

or do you guys just like to confuse children with stories of ressurections and large rabbits hiding painted eggs?

This is perhaps the reason you have somewhat defensive responses. I’m sure you understand the maganitude of the Resurrection to any Christian (not just Catholics). When you tongue and cheek compare the Resurrection to large rabbits and painted eggs, you will no doubt invite some protest. But don’t sweat it. Christians have suffered through much worse over the centuries.

 

[cheddarsox]

I had to pipe up because I love to share this saying whenever I get a ghost of a chance…

“A cat may have its kittens in the oven…but that don’t make them biscuits.”

perhaps the only one’s more offended than the Catholics by this oft heard “Catholic holidays are pagan” discussion, are the people who practice that faiths that the Catholics supposedly “stole” these traditions from. Some people don’t buy the saying that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, and they get very outraged over this. They feel that someone came in, took their holidays and traditions and used them to lead the kids astray. I guess I might feel the same if someone used my trads “against me” so to speak.

There are many things in Catholicism that are paganish, but I don’t know that that’s a bad thing. People use what works to open the soul, and there are some things that seem to be universal. Incense, candles, icons, statues, ritual etc all help people get to a spiritual place. The Catholic holidays take advantage of the symbolism of the seasons, as do the holidays of MANY other religions. That is just good sense. When do people need the promise of hope more than in the dark of winter? When do we feel more joyful and close to the divine than when spring begins to break?

cheddar

 

[AsStAnselmPrays]

Wormwood, do not, and I mean DO NOT, call Catholics pagans.

 

[javelin]

A couple points of thought, Wormwood.

You seem to be setting up a false dichotomy here. Perhaps the tenor of people’s responses to you are the result of what you have seemingly proposed, beginning with the title of this discussion:

“Why are Catholics Pagans?”

You then go on to talk about how pagan symbols and dates of feasts coincide with popular cultural feasts celebrated by Christians marking the two greatest days in human history: Chirst’s birth, and His resurrection.

The clear implication you are making is that the adoption or preservation of what were pagan symbols into Christian feasts makes “Catholics pagans”.

Simply put, Catholics are not pagans.

Webster defines “pagan” as “a follower of a polytheistic religion”. Christians are clearly not polytheistic, believing in One God, Who is over and above all.

The false dichotomy is: one can either use what were pagan symbols in festivals, OR one can be Christian.

That should be enought to answer the question posed in the title of this discussion.

What makes someone a pagan is their polytheism, not their adoption of things that could be symbols of polytheistic gods. After all, bunnies, eggs, lights, stars, and evergreen trees are just things unless someone attaches a symbolic meaning to them. Even then, in order for you to really claim that someone holds to belief in the thing that is symbolized, you need to show that they actaully recognize through the object (i.e. a bunny) the thing that it is supposedly symbolizing (i.e. the fertility goddess).

As previous posters have pointed out, Catholics (and Christians in general) do not equate the things that were pagan symbols with the pagan gods they used to signify. Moreover, all of creation truly points to the splendor and majesty of the One God, and all attempts people have made to create gods of their own (pagan gods) through symbols are actually perverting God’s creation against Him. In some ways, when Christians move to change the object of a symbol to point back to the One God, we are simply taking back what was His to begin with.

There are probably many various reasons why certain holidays, especially that major ones, were “scheduled” on or near pagan holidays. One may be that it was more difficult for people to travel in those days, and so getting together for a feast was not a simple matter. If people were already gathering for a feast, it makes sense that the Christians among them would have used that time to commemorate important events in Christianity. It is also a way to make the faith visible. We see it all the time today. When people gather for a pro-choice rally, there are always groups of anti-demonstrators who come to make their “side” of the dispute known. So while the pagans werre celebrating fertility, the Christians were celebrating our true salvation in the resurrection of the Christ. There was probably much evangelization during those times.

Jesus also modeled this approach by going out to where the sinners were to preach to them and bring the Good News.

When the Church brings Christ into a pagan celebration, His power can transform it.

We could continue to speculate, but it’s really a moot point. Having a bunny, or an egg does not make a celebration pagan, nor does it make those who hold the celebration pagan. Their belief in God defines them, not a few symbols the culture uses for fun.

Peace,
javelin

 

[tcay584]

Ok seriously, what is with the pagan holidays? Is this a case of “when in Rome…” ? The two holidays I am specifically refering to are easter and christmas. Christmas happens right after the pagan celebration of the winter solstice. The holiday was happening anyway so let’s make it christian? Why not stick with hannukah (sorry i butchered the spelling) like Jesus himself would have practiced? And that brings me to easter. Christian equivelant of the passover holiday correct? (speaking from a time of year perspective) Then why have easter resemble the spring equinox festivals of the pagans. The pagans used such symbols as eggs and rabbits for their fertility rituals regaurding the spring equinox…those symbols sound familiar…Is this another case of early christians adapting to their pagan surroundings or do you guys just like to confuse children with stories of ressurections and large rabbits hiding painted eggs?

Oh go hatch an egg, Wormie.

 

[Joseph_Bilodeau]

Wormwood:

…I don’t know if it is all the talk about fertility and maypoles, but careful. Your advances and inuendos are unwelcome I assure you…

What advances and innuendos?

 

[severinus]

Quote from Wormwood:
**
Easter is the Germanization of Ishtar.**

As an amateur philologist, I am simply dying to know your source for this etymology.

Would it be Jack Chick?
chick.com/reading/books/158/158_02.asp

This may explain much.

 

[MonicaC]

I guess I have one question for you Wormwood. Is there a reason why you are pinning all of the secular traditions on Catholics? I assure you that there are genuine reasons for the the dates of our Holidays as I am sure every one here can more than gladly tell you. And I am almost sure that any Christain in general will know exactly why we celeberate Christmas and Easter on the days they fall on. So why in your mind is it the fault of Catholics that it is popular to have Easter eggs and Easter bunnys (which by the why was never celebrated when I was growing up - in case you are wondering I am only 30 years old and yes I grew up in the USA) Don’t ever be mistaken that these secular tradtions are not Catholic.

Monica

 

[Fidelis]

Not that the OP has any real interest in this topic other that being entertained watching a lot of us, in good faith, waste our time trying to give answers his incendiary charges, but for the rest of us, Catholic apologist Jimmy Akin has several related issues published on his blog today:

www.jimmyakin.org

 

[allhers]

Wormwood:

…
I wish you could use that same common sense to read. Who said anything about worshiping trees or eggs? Even the pagans didn’t do that…that is something you guys came up with just now. Actually read what is written instead of just thinking of how you want to reply. Thanks all.

…
Excuse me Wormwood, but you started out with this remember?..“Ok seriously, what is with the pagan holidays? Is this a case of “when in Rome…” ? The two holidays I am specifically refering to are easter and christmas.”
You accused us of celebrating pagan holidays, (which we don’t, we celebrate Jesus and all He did for us.) Later, you stated that you were a pagan. So then, use your common sense to figure out that whatever you believe, we don’t!
We remember, we celebrate, we believe.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

The confusion lies in the secular world, not in Church teaching. Christmas and Easter are clearly celebrated in the Church as the birth and resurection of Jesus, resepectively. I’ve never seen Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny make an appearance at a mass. I’ve never been confused about the real meaning of the holidays, despite what I hear on television and radio. So, where is the confusion coming from? Perhaps Wormwood should be asking his question to the secular institutions.

IMHO it’s not the pagan roots surrounding the dates on which the Church has fixed the annual remembrances that cause the confusion. It’s the secularization of the holidays that leads people to confusion such as that under which Wormwood is laboring.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Ok seriously, what is with the pagan holidays? Is this a case of “when in Rome…” ? The two holidays I am specifically refering to are easter and christmas. Christmas happens right after the pagan celebration of the winter solstice. The holiday was happening anyway so let’s make it christian? Why not stick with hannukah (sorry i butchered the spelling) like Jesus himself would have practiced? And that brings me to easter. Christian equivelant of the passover holiday correct? (speaking from a time of year perspective) Then why have easter resemble the spring equinox festivals of the pagans. The pagans used such symbols as eggs and rabbits for their fertility rituals regaurding the spring equinox…those symbols sound familiar…Is this another case of early christians adapting to their pagan surroundings or do you guys just like to confuse children with stories of ressurections and large rabbits hiding painted eggs?

The coincidence of time, where it exists, is probably to be explained as Christian ecclesiastical imperialism ​

IOW - the Church may well have chosen those times in order to take them over for her own worship, so as to squeeze the pagan festivals out of the calendar, and to claim the time for her own faith, while leaving paganism with no time to call its own.

Some of the building of churches can be accounted for in a similar way - a temple can hardly be used for non-Christian worship, if it has been converted into a church.

Why stick with Hanukkah, when the Light of the World has come ?

Much of what you’re complaining of is not Christian at all , but modern flummery - the Easter Bunny (whatever that is) has nothing to do with the Resurrection of Christ and His victory over death, the devil, and the grave. ##

 

[aaronjmagnan]

Imperialism is such a harsh word

The Catholic Church allows for the practice of customs stemming from other cultures as long as they do not come into direct contradiction to the teachings of the Church.

That is the church stance behind much of this via the Catechism.

I know, Wormwood, you find it tedious to look through there. It’s in there, and if you really want I’ll find it. But you may want to get some scholarly credit and read.

In the case of them being considered “Pagan,” this is not true because Catholics do not believe God to be in those items, such as the tree, etc. And the tree isn’t Catholic, it’s a custom that has lost its religious import.

God bless.

Aaron

 

[TNT]

Some just love ignorance and nothing u say or prove makes any difference because of that love and devotion to ignorance. But I’ll give one shot:
From a NON catholic source:

Generally speaking, the Western Churches [catholic] kept Easter on the first day of the week, while the Eastern Churches followed the Jewish rule.
** Polycarp, the disciple of John the Evangelist, and bishop of Smyrna, visited Rome in 159 to confer with Anicetus**, the bishop of the see, on the subject, and urged the tradition which he had recieved from the apostles of observing the 14th day.Anicetus, however, declined. About 40 years later,(197), the question was discussed in a very different spirit between Victor, bishop of Rome, and Polycarp, metropolitan of proconsular Asia [the territory of the Churches at Ephesus, Galatia, Antioch, Philadelphia and all those mentioned in Rev 2 & 3-~~ the churches established through Apostle Paul]. That province was the only portion of Christendom which still adhered to the Jewish usuage prevailing at Rome.This Polycrates firmly refused to agree to, and urged many weighty reasons to the contrary, where upon Victor proceeded to excommunicate Polycrates and the Christians who continued the Eastern usuage. He was, however, persuaded from actually proceeding to enforce the decree of excommunication…and the Asiatic churches retained their usuage unmolested. We find the Jewish ususge from time to time reasserting itself after this, but it never prevailed to any large extent.
A final settlement of the dispute was one among the other reasons which led Constantine to summon the council at Nicaea in 325. At that time the Syrians and Antiochenes were the solitary champions of the observance of the 14th day. The decision of the council was unanimous that Easter was to be kept on Sunday, and on the same Sunday throughout the world, and that ‘none hereafter should follow the blindness of the Jews.’

I believe that the Catholic Church was still under super persecution in 160ad, and mostly underground. Besides, the history shows that Easter had been observed long before that since the controversy was about something that was going on for some time. Notice that one of the characters was a disciple of an APOSTLE!
Sheesh!
The fact that Jesus decided to rise from the dead near the spring equinox is His perogative. It has not a thing to do with pagan ritual. It just might have to do with the Passover AND the fact that His Creation was “coming back to life” in the Middle east.
But then who cares about the facts?

 

[JimG]

I love it that the Church took over all the pagan holidays and made them Christian holidays.

Nobody ever tried to change the names of the months of the year, or the days of the week. Sometimes names just get too ingrained to try to change. Even Leningrad is now St. Petersburg again.

And a Happy Woden’s Day to you. Coming up on Thor’s Day tomorrow!

 

[Wormwood]

I think it’s funny how many people are getting indignant and condescending…the title was a JOKE…the question was somewhat real. Just curious a) why they took already existing holidays b) why they failed to get rid of the old pagan symbolism and c) why not explain where all the weird associations that seem unrelated come from? Mostly I gather that it was a power play to sway the pagans or wipe their holidays out. Seems logical I guess. When the symbolism comes up, people have no good answers so they make up a new argument about worshiping eggs and such. And as for the explainations, I heard that no one was confused by it…but I have yet to hear a positive service those symbols provide, accept that they appeal to children.

Mickey
This is perhaps the reason you have somewhat defensive responses. I’m sure you understand the maganitude of the Resurrection to any Christian (not just Catholics).

Yeah, actually the magnitude is what I wanted to convey…it seems like adding “extras” to a holiday which would logically be your most sacred, would be taking away from the sacrifice. Why muck up the meaning of that day with this other junk?

javelin:
A couple points of thought, Wormwood.

You seem to be setting up a false dichotomy here.

Let me stop you right there…just one thought for you, and I mean no insult…but you say “false dichotomy” more than any person on earth! I think you say that to me at least once a thread

Why are Catholics Pagans?"

It was a joke, I wanted to see how many people would actually address the question.

The clear implication you are making is that the adoption or preservation of what were pagan symbols into Christian feasts makes “Catholics pagans”.

It wasn’t that clear to me. The title aside, I just asked why the traditions were assimilated instead of bypassed (i.e. another date/time of year) and what, if anything, the pagan symbols offered for your dedication of the holiday.

When people gather for a pro-choice rally, there are always groups of anti-demonstrators who come to make their “side” of the dispute known. So while the pagans werre celebrating fertility, the Christians were celebrating our true salvation in the resurrection of the Christ. There was probably much evangelization during those times.

Hmm, interesting perspective. Makes sense except it doesn’t explain why people protesting the pagans would take on the same symbols.

severinus
As an amateur philologist, I am simply dying to know your source for this etymology.

Would it be Jack Chick?

Well the source I stated a little later was websters unabridges for the linguistics and for the knowledge of the festival of Ishtar and other pagan festivals and symbols try reading translations of: H. Frankfort’s Cylinder seal (1939) Gods and myths on sargonic seals (1934) Kingship and the gods (1948) H.G. Guterbock’s the deeds of suppilulima (1956)
Die historishe tradition bei babylonier und hethitern (1934) and Hittite Mythology(1961). I have no idea who or what “Jack Chick” is…is that a person, a book, a movie?

 

[Wormwood]

Some just love ignorance and nothing u say or prove makes any difference because of that love and devotion to ignorance

Yes…cleary I am the one who has prematurely made up their mind and is stubbornly set in my opinion…:banghead:
I ask questions and you claim insight into my “love of ignorance”. For a love of ignorance is truly the only thing that could lead one to ask questions…

The fact that Jesus decided to rise from the dead near the spring equinox is His perogative. It has not a thing to do with pagan ritual

EXACTLY…so why the hybrid? Why not get rid of all the old symbolism at least? The answer I got for this was because the meaning of the symbol had been changed. But I wonder how this is different than just adopting the new meanings to retain the old ways. I know this is an extreme ***example ***but why not keep the pagan gods too? As long as you don’t worship any before god you are following the law…see it is adapting the new belief to meet with the trappings of the old beliefs. I realize catholics aren’t ACTUALLY pagans. I am just questioning the motives/contributions of the old ways.

But then who cares about the facts?

Obviously not you.

 

[mlchance]

Throughout all of this, let us continue to ignore that there is no historical evidence that the dates for Easter and Christmas were chosen by Christians in order to coincide with pagan holidays.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[jimmy]

Ok seriously, what is with the pagan holidays? Is this a case of “when in Rome…” ? The two holidays I am specifically refering to are easter and christmas. Christmas happens right after the pagan celebration of the winter solstice. The holiday was happening anyway so let’s make it christian? Why not stick with hannukah (sorry i butchered the spelling) like Jesus himself would have practiced? And that brings me to easter. Christian equivelant of the passover holiday correct? (speaking from a time of year perspective) Then why have easter resemble the spring equinox festivals of the pagans. The pagans used such symbols as eggs and rabbits for their fertility rituals regaurding the spring equinox…those symbols sound familiar…Is this another case of early christians adapting to their pagan surroundings or do you guys just like to confuse children with stories of ressurections and large rabbits hiding painted eggs?

Why does it matter what Christmas is? Does it hurt anyone that it occurs after the winter solstace? Christmas is the celebration of the birth of Christ, if you don’t want to celebrate it, then don’t, but we will continue. Easter is the celebration of the ressurrection of Christ. It is not the passover.