Why are Catholics Pagans?

[gardenswithkids]

Wormwood:

Just curious a) why they took already existing holidays b) why they failed to get rid of the old pagan symbolism and c) why not explain where all the weird associations that seem unrelated come from?

I’ll take a stab at answering your questions. Maybe some of the links or other posts offer better explainations, but the thread seems to have gotten sidetracked by concern about your motives. This is how I’ve heard it explained.

a) Christians were originally persecuted and often killed in the Roman Empire. Taking on their holidays but celebrating them in Christian ways allowed them to both practice their faith yet avoid standing out for persecution.

Winter solstice, I understand, celebrates the birthday of the sun which gives light to our earthly world. Christmas celebrates the birthday of the Son- the One Who is the Light of the world. While one is pagan and one Christian, there are similarities in what we celebrate, but there are also critical differences.

b) A person (or even the entire culture) that converts to Christianity does not need to abandon everything from their former pagan life–they need to reform their lives to reflect Christ. If the symbols of their previous holidays can fit into Christian Holy Days, then we can keep them. The egg, for example, can be seen as a Christian symbol of life coming from the tomb. (But the aren’t used in our liturgy, and not all of the images associated with the secular holidays can be tied into Christianity.)

c) I tried, as did a few others. I hope this helps you on your journey.

 

[Wormwood]

gardenswithkids

I’ll take a stab at answering your questions. Maybe some of the links or other posts offer better explainations, but the thread seems to have gotten sidetracked by concern about your motives. This is how I’ve heard it explained.

a) Christians were originally persecuted and often killed in the Roman Empire. Taking on their holidays but celebrating them in Christian ways allowed them to both practice their faith yet avoid standing out for persecution.

I can’t believe it!! This is the most calm and rational response I have gotten. This fits into the description of declining Rome perfectly, makes sense on all levels of the question, and you did it all without being condescending…if there was an award for good christians I would suggest you…oh well there’s heaven I guess…but I’m not very sure how much sway I would have getting you that one…how about one of these instead ?

c) I tried, as did a few others. I hope this helps you on your journey.

More than you know. Peace be with you.

 

[LSK]

Wormwood:

Agreed. But it is not hard to read, and I sated outright it was a joke…in fact you quoted it

No where in your first question is the phrase - oh, and btw, this is a joke.

Some of the answers were pretty good, but you should reread for the tone issue. Just by virtue of asking a question, I am not inviting people with very little to say, to say that very little in a condecending manner.

The first answers were straight forward.

If you get angry from something you read, it’s best not to read that anymore.

agreed - unless one is trying to calm things down and suggest that everyone take responsibility for the tone and emotions beginning to display on the particular thread.

Someone questioning your beliefs should not bother you. If it does, my posts/threads probably aren’t for you.

Questioning someone’s beliefs in a respectful manner does not bother anyone - doing so as part of some sort of personal comedy routine indicates a lack of overall respect. Therefore, it becomes very difficult for most people to not feel attacked.

I bet you voted for Bush huh? You are preaching to the proverbial choir. Please end this topic!!!

What does anyone’s voting record have to do with anything? I voted for Kucinich.

Finally some sort of answers. Thank you for ending your tangent about the shortcomings of my social grace with something I can actually use!! (seriously thanks…not sarcastic)

Someone very wise once said, “If you don’t want others to take your personal inventory, you might want to do it yourself.” It’s just a thought.

Which in this instance is? Plus that was a shot at Jav for posting that once a thread in his defense of any argument I have that opposses his. Also just a joke if you are looking for some indicator to lighten up.

Sarcasm working well for you again?

Ok, I will admit that I am not the world’s greatest jokesmith,

Holy mackeral, you admitted some wrong doing?

if you will acknowledge that it was ridiculous for you guys to get so mad even if I hadn’t been joking.

I cannot speak for others. I can only speak for myself. I was never angry; I was, however, annoyed at your assumptions and the appearance of condensending attitude (pls excuse my poor spelling skills). If I misread your attitude, then I apologize. However, you missed some joking too.

I don’t get angry when someone here questions my agnostic values.

sure you do.

Also I should mention, that I do not believe 100% of what I say…

does this mean you voted for Bush?

sometimes I just take the opposing side in a debate as to learn more about the subject at hand,

poor rhetorical method being used once again.

and answer whatever doubts or reservations I may have about the point being made.

It has been my experience that one learns more if one is up front and honest - perhaps one could say something along the lines of "it appears that Christian Holidays are superimposed upon Pagan holidays. Am I correct or am I misunderstanding something about Christian Holidays? Just a suggestion.

So it was funny to me (I’m sorry!) to see so many people get irate and make up even stranger allegations on their own.

And so the true reason for posting finally is revealed.

Can I help the way my mind works? If I have a doubt, it comes naturally. Your explainations didn’t cover every question perhaps.

If you are an adult, with free will and fairly free of mental illness, yes. You can help the way your mind works and how you express yourself. If, however, you are encumbered by impediments that render you free of personal responsibility, we understand. Lots of people - including Christians - suffer from that problem. Just let us know. We are a very loving and understanding crowd.
Why?

I hope we are at least at a little better understanding of one another. I will try to curb the sarcasm. (starting now )

thank you.

Or perhaps I just don’t care for C.S. Lewis as I stated earlier. I am sure I could reference more than 100 books that you have never read, does that mean they are over your head? No, it means you have not read them.

Again, setting a tone means being able to endure it…or as my dear old pappy used to say, “If you cain’t stand the heat, get out of the hot tub”…or something like that.

Yes LSK you are right, I don’t see how I could have been sarcastic to well thought out and insightful posts like this…
(ok starting NOW!

thank you - it is always nice to have some acknowledge that I am right. :dancing:

 

[adstrinity]

Wormwood:

Oh I know. You will never hear me dispute that most of Judaism is based on older pagan religions. I was just curious how you guys could justify all the paganism…especially on “easter” becase that was Christs claim to fame…the death and resurection, and now he competes with a giant bunny that brings chocolate (an aphrodesiac).

He doesn’t compete. Furthermore, wine could also be an aphrodesiac if enough consumed. But, personally, wine & chocolate: Two great tastes that taste great together! …Yeah, I know that last statement/eclamation didn’t make sense, but, I voted for Bush.:yup:

 

[Carthusian]

Wormwood, (by the way, in Biblical terminology, wormwood means ‘bitter’)

The term Easter is actually found in the KJV, in Acts 12:4. it means Passover, and Jesus is our Passover. (rf. 1 Cor. 5:7) at Easter, we celebrate the rising of Christ from the dead. we all know that, regardless of the misuse of the term.
As for Christmas, December 25th by our calendar is actually the date of Jesus’ conception, and this can be deduced by studying the book of Luke. See www.therain.org/appendixes/app179.html
Regarding these dates in this way celebrates the two of the most important events in Christianity. So don’t be bitter, wormwood!

 

[Wormwood]

LSK

No where in your first question is the phrase - oh, and btw, this is a joke.

Determined today huh? No, but when I realized that it needed to be stated, I said it. That should have been it, but here we are again.

agreed - unless one is trying to calm things down and suggest that everyone take responsibility for the tone and emotions beginning to display on the particular thread.

Yes you should definitely stay mad if someone is trying to calm things down…makes sense to me.

Questioning someone’s beliefs in a respectful manner does not bother anyone - doing so as part of some sort of personal comedy routine indicates a lack of overall respect. Therefore, it becomes very difficult for most people to not feel attacked.

You feel that way because you chose to. They’re just words, but in your mind you feel attacked…so it must be by choice because…

If you are an adult, with free will and fairly free of mental illness, yes. You can help the way your mind works and how you express yourself. If, however, you are encumbered by impediments that render you free of personal responsibility, we understand

While we are on the subject of this line, you can’t possibly think that all thought is controlled? Where do you think new ideas come from? Where do emotions fit into this?

Someone very wise once said, “If you don’t want others to take your personal inventory, you might want to do it yourself.” It’s just a thought.

Yes, someone so great and wise, you didn’t even bother to learn their name. I am aware of my faults, but my personality is not really what was in question here until you ran out of anything relevant to say. Now I feel like I am just repeating the same moot points over and over again.

Holy mackeral, you admitted some wrong doing?

Sure, I’ll admit to much worse than that, you just have to know the right questions, but like I said, this is not a study of me.

I can only speak for myself. I was never angry; I was, however, annoyed at your assumptions and the appearance of condensending attitude (pls excuse my poor spelling skills). If I misread your attitude, then I apologize.

It is not a problem, just from now on if I say something that seems too offensive to be on this forum, it is probably not serious, and you can always feel free to ask if I am serious.

sure you do.

Baseless. I have yet to encounter that here so I hardly see how you could possibly pressume to know that.

poor rhetorical method being used once again

I disagree. Have you ever been a part of a formal debate? Sometimes you have to take a side that you don’t neccessarily agree with. By looking fully at both sides I can be sure I have all of the facts.

It has been my experience that one learns more if one is up front and honest - perhaps one could say something along the lines of "it appears that Christian Holidays are superimposed upon Pagan holidays. Am I correct or am I misunderstanding something about Christian Holidays? Just a suggestion

That is not the way that the opposition is out there presenting itself. I ask the questions like I hear them. If I make a strange allegation that I don’t seem to agree with 100%, it is because I have heard that arguement posed and go unrefuted. It is not my intention to be mean when I say this, but I do not come here to make friends and confirm what you already believe, I come to get questions answered and debate with intelligent people that have a full working knowledge of the texts. There are many wonderful people here that inspire me with their patience and fellowship, so I’m the other guy…keeps it balanced

And so the true reason for posting finally is revealed.

Not the reason, just a hilarious side effect.

Again, setting a tone means being able to endure it…or as my dear old pappy used to say, “If you cain’t stand the heat, get out of the hot tub”…or something like that

The quote, that your quote is in response to, was not even in a “tone”. I just give the most simplistic images I can to express my point. I was trying to express that there is no particular hierarchy of intellectual literature.

Carthusian
Wormwood, (by the way, in Biblical terminology, wormwood means ‘bitter’)

Hmmm me? It also has another meaning…

As for Christmas, December 25th by our calendar is actually the date of Jesus’ conception,

Yes I have heard this before, I was kind of surprised that I hadn’t heard it here, I was thinking maybe that was a protestant rendition.

 

[seashell]

Ok seriously, what is with the pagan holidays? Is this a case of “when in Rome…” ? The two holidays I am specifically refering to are easter and christmas. Christmas happens right after the pagan celebration of the winter solstice. The holiday was happening anyway so let’s make it christian? Why not stick with hannukah (sorry i butchered the spelling) like Jesus himself would have practiced? And that brings me to easter. Christian equivelant of the passover holiday correct? (speaking from a time of year perspective) Then why have easter resemble the spring equinox festivals of the pagans. The pagans used such symbols as eggs and rabbits for their fertility rituals regaurding the spring equinox…those symbols sound familiar…Is this another case of early christians adapting to their pagan surroundings or do you guys just like to confuse children with stories of ressurections and large rabbits hiding painted eggs?

When the early Christians were convertin, they wanted to live for Jesus. However, they didn’t want to give up there holidays. To save lives, the missionaries cleverly decided to spread their religious message slowly throughout the populations by allowing them to continue to celebrate pagan feasts, but to do so in a Christian manner.

Now the Easter Egg celebrates our new birth in Christ and the Easter Bunny. The Easter bunny came from Germany and the myth was it laid Easter Eggs.

 

[Joseph_Bilodeau]

Carthusian:

…As for Christmas, December 25th by our calendar is actually the date of Jesus’ conception, and this can be deduced by studying the book of Luke. See www.therain.org/appendixes/app179.html …

Regarding this hypothesis regarding the dates of the conception and birth of our Lord, it should be noted for the record that this is not a teaching of the Catholic Church. This hypothesis is proposed on the website of an organization named Church of the Rain, who has their own interpretations of the Scriptures, not necessarily in conformity with the Catholic Church in this regard.

The church does not teach as a historical fact that Jesus was definitely conceived on a March 25 and born on a December 25 (or on dates that can be made to correspond to these on other calendars) and no other dates, but these are the dates on which these events are Liturgically commemorated. While it may be possible that Jesus actually was conceived on a December 25, at least to the extent of a 1/365.25 probability, this should not be taken as an established fact.

 

[live]

pagans smagans dont insult others just b soo busy living life that u dont have x 2 insult catholics or anyone

Ok seriously, what is with the pagan holidays? Is this a case of “when in Rome…” ? The two holidays I am specifically refering to are easter and christmas. Christmas happens right after the pagan celebration of the winter solstice. The holiday was happening anyway so let’s make it christian? Why not stick with hannukah (sorry i butchered the spelling) like Jesus himself would have practiced? And that brings me to easter. Christian equivelant of the passover holiday correct? (speaking from a time of year perspective) Then why have easter resemble the spring equinox festivals of the pagans. The pagans used such symbols as eggs and rabbits for their fertility rituals regaurding the spring equinox…those symbols sound familiar…Is this another case of early christians adapting to their pagan surroundings or do you guys just like to confuse children with stories of ressurections and large rabbits hiding painted eggs?

 

[live]

being a pagan or a chatholic isnt bad or good its just who u r-just b cool to others n live ur life-i.e.have an awesome relationship,movies,amusement parks -get the idea

 

[Sherlock]

live:

being a pagan or a chatholic isnt bad or good its just who u r-just b cool to others n live ur life-i.e.have an awesome relationship,movies,amusement parks -get the idea

Are you saying that there is no such thing as bad or good? How can that be, since you advise us to “b cool”—logically, you are advising us to do that because you think to “be cool” is a good. The rest of your post advises that we should have an “awesome relationship” and do recreational stuff. Again, you are presupposing that those are good, even though you advocate a relativist position in the first part of your post.

If you believe (as indicated by your post) that being cool to others and living your life is preferable to, say, not being cool to others and not living your life, then why do you not admit of the possibility that the same might be true of Catholicism and paganism? Why is it not possible that Catholicism is preferable to paganism, just as being cool to others is preferable to not being cool to others?

 

[Milliardo]

The long and short of it, to answer your question, is that those pagan holidays were taken by the Church to show the victory of Christ over paganism. Why then have some of the seemingly pagan themes also come along with them then? It’s the same thing: to show that these things; the days, al the things that go along with them, and even us belong to the Lord. After all, we do profess Christ to be the King, and Lord of history, so the Church is only showing us that indeed all of the days are rightfully His then. It is as simple as that.

 

[Shoshana]

My dearest Wormwood,

When I read the title of this thread and saw your username…well, I chuckled…

Please be patient with my fellow Catholic companions…they will need to hone their humility a little better!

 

[Joseph_Bilodeau]

Shoshana:

My dearest Wormwood,

When I read the title of this thread and saw your username…well, I chuckled…

Please be patient with my fellow Catholic companions…they will need to hone their humility a little better!

This thread isn’t big enough for two Screwtapes!

 

[Shoshana]

Joseph Bilodeau:

This thread isn’t big enough for two Screwtapes!

God bless you Mr Bilodeau!!! I do not know if Wormwood would want my company…

 

[aaronjmagnan]

Well half of it is humility, and the other half of it is reponse and defense.

I think those that are rude are different from those simply willing to correct misinformation.

Wormwood is either truly seeking answers or screwing around with people. If it is the former, then he is getting them, and he defends himself with sarcasm. If it is the latter, then here is my other cheek!

God bless,
Aaron

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

Wormwood:

I can’t believe it!! This is the most calm and rational response I have gotten. This fits into the description of declining Rome perfectly, makes sense on all levels of the question, and you did it all without being condescending…if there was an award for good christians I would suggest you…oh well there’s heaven I guess…but I’m not very sure how much sway I would have getting you that one…how about one of these instead ?

More than you know. Peace be with you.

Wormwood, seriously, do you believe that Chanukah is pagan and are Jews really worshipping candles when they light a menorah or praying to multiple gods for each candle? really… these theories are whacked. If this had the slightest possibility of being true; don’t you think some credible secular historians would love to jump on this to discredit Christianity?

God(s) (jk) bless,

 

[steve99]

Genesis315:

Not sure where the Easter bunny comes from

I think Easter bunnies where originally hares which were Eostre’s favourite animal. They are a pagan love and fertility symbol

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

steve99:

I think Easter bunnies where originally hares which were Eostre’s favourite animal. They are a pagan love and fertility symbol

That’s true, but I’ve never seen an ‘Easter’ bunny at a Catholic Church during the Easter season. Protestant churches I have…

 

[Fox]

The reason why Christian holidays often coincede with Pagan ones on purpose. What a better way in crushing Paganism with countering the beliefs and enveloping them with Christian theology.