Why are catholics so controlling?

[grinev]

Wow. I don’t think I’m at all black and white, or narrow minded. I love everyone! Most Catholics I know are much more loving and open minded to people. However, being open minded or loving doesn’t mean disobeying God, the Church. Sure, God and the Church are very ‘narrow minded’ (your words) about abortion, same sex marriage, divorce, fornication, masturbation, murder…I don’t make the rules. I just follow them; I fail and I try again. God is right. The Church is right. That doesn’t make them narrow minded.

Being open minded is not a sin. However, I can accept that there IS sin, but I don’t have to accept the sin. I can love my family members who sin (as I know they love me). I know of many artists, scientists, creative people who are Catholic. I like to think I’m on the path to being very spiritual, and many people that I know are spiritual. I do know many non-Catholics who are very spiritual as well.

We choose to be a product of our culture, if we are. Please please please don’t generalize about Catholics OR Americans in such broad sweeping strokes. Don’t single Catholics out, for we are just as human as any other person in the US.

You don’t have many Catholic friends, so perhaps you aren’t getting a true picture of Catholics. I do not feel uncomfortable in Catholic faith communities because I’m ‘spiritual’, but perhaps, in some, not the same level of spirituality as others have already arrived at, and I hope to attain. It’s not that they are lacking; it’s because I’m still learning and am the one lacking.

I think your response and the very narrow minded way that you interpreted my post only proves my point even more.

By the way, I have been surrounded by Catholics all of my life and so I have an idea of what a lot of Catholics are like. I’ve lived in many cities and they all kind of seem the same.

I don’t mean to say that other Catholics aren’t spiritual or less Catholic than I am, I am just saying that the emphasis always goes towards the same things. There’s always the tendency to condemn people who do the sins they don’t do and ignore the sins that they are most guilty of.

Sure you can choose not to be a product of your own culture but it is very rare from what I have seen, particularly of American Catholics.

 

[Monkey1976]

I figure there are two ways to look at the teaching of the Church:

1. 
   *]A chain holding me prisoner from doing what I want to do
   *]The lifeline keeping from drowning in a very deep, very dark, and very unfriendly sea
   
   Personally, I’ll hold tight to that lifeline.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

I figure there are two ways to look at the teaching of the Church:

1. 
   *]A chain holding me prisoner from doing what I want to do
   *]The lifeline keeping from drowning in a very deep, very dark, and very unfriendly sea
   
   Personally, I’ll hold tight to that lifeline.

1. 
   Excellent way to put it.

 

[ahaley]

I wonder how often someone calling Catholics “controlling” really means “I want to do this thing, and they told me it was not allowed”.

Any belief system will eventually run into this. I believe that this is true even if there isn’t a list of “shall nots”.

Imagine a pair of Zen Buddhists, a student and a teacher. Both have devoted themselved to following, to the best of their ability, the Noble Eightfold Path. One day the student enters sesshin and says, “Sensei, I wish to go down to the local orphanage and chainsaw all the children to death.”

“This,” replies the teacher, “is evil. I will not allow you to do it. It violates the principles of right action and right effort.”

“You Buddhists are all so controlling.”

Yes, that’s an extreme example, but substitute a priest for the sensei and a man who wants to remarry without an anullment and it fits the same pattern.

 

[PJM]

=Seaborgium;11732683]I don’t have a problem with the tenets of faith, but catholics themselves, from priests to people that I know, they are so controlling. Even on this forum, you can feel the oppression of catholics imposing their edited version of the truth.

Generally speaking, why are catholics so controlling. They don’t criticise their own church for its wrong doings, to keep the peace, but at what cost? Morality is the cost.

First WELCOME TO CAF:thumbsup:

Pope Benedict in His acceptance talk as Pope had this to say about truth:
[emphasis not shouting]

“THERE CANNOT BE MY TRUTH AND YOUR TRUTH OR THEIR WOULD BE NO TRUTH”

Two points:

1. Can truth on any one defined issue have more than ONE reality?
2. I’ve been here awhile: seldom do I find anyone “trashing” their own church. And the FORUM does not allow such behavior. But I can assure you that we know and feel the pain of our churches past sins.** However it is not “the church” who sins; its the people within the church that are sinners.**

Being a Catholic does extend the opportunity for Sacramental Graces not found in other faiths; but GRACE can always be denied, or misused. Even Catholics are mortal and finite.

God Bless you,
Patrick

 

[RetreatFan]

I figure there are two ways to look at the teaching of the Church:

1. 
   *]A chain holding me prisoner from doing what I want to do
   *]The lifeline keeping from drowning in a very deep, very dark, and very unfriendly sea
   
   Personally, I’ll hold tight to that lifeline.

1. 
   

 

[esieffe]

When I was a kid, my parents and teachers kept me from doing things that wold have an adverse affect on my character, like going on an unsupervised beach trip in high school, or hanging out with people that they could sense would be a bad influence on me.

They did their best to keep me from harm, to show me how to be a compassionate, decent person, to protect me, mainly from myself.

As an adult, I try to pass that on to other kids. I want them to have the same chance I had. I still need that mother and father, and now I find that example in the Church, who also loves me, God and his church. I still need guidance from time to time, and I still need that example.

This way is not for everyone. You have the God given right and freedom to hang around with people and follow other beliefs. Personally I have found Catholics to be the most caring most SINCERE folk I have ever had the pleasure to be with, that is one reason I became one.

God bless you and your journey.

 

[Sarcelle]

I don’t have a problem with the tenets of faith, but catholics themselves, from priests to people that I know, they are so controlling. Even on this forum, you can feel the oppression of catholics imposing their edited version of the truth.

Generally speaking, why are catholics so controlling. They don’t criticise their own church for its wrong doings, to keep the peace, but at what cost? Morality is the cost.

What do you mean controlling?

Are they putting a gun to your head and threatening death if you don’t do as they say?

Or are.they merely saying things you don’t want to hear?

If it is the latter, you have the freedom to ignore them. There is nothing they can do anyway.

What is so controlling about that?

 

[Rence]

I don’t have a problem with the tenets of faith, but catholics themselves, from priests to people that I know, they are so controlling. Even on this forum, you can feel the oppression of catholics imposing their edited version of the truth.

Generally speaking, why are catholics so controlling. They don’t criticise their own church for its wrong doings, to keep the peace, but at what cost? Morality is the cost.

Controlling people come from all walks of life. It’s not just Catholics. You just know Catholics who are controlling as people. Try not to let that reflect on Catholics in general. I’m sure you know controlling people who are Jewish, Muslim, atheist, etc. And there are certainly more cultures that are more controlling than Catholics. Just look at radical Muslims that make the news daily.

 

[Rence]

What do you mean controlling?

Are they putting a gun to your head and threatening death if you don’t do as they say?

Or are.they merely saying things you don’t want to hear?

If it is the latter, you have the freedom to ignore them. There is nothing they can do anyway.

What is so controlling about that?

The OP means people (and in this case, Catholics) who try to control others by hounding, pressuring, having a condescending attitude, imposing ‘fraternal correction’ in an ‘unloving’ but definitely unwanted way. I’m sure you know what the OP means. There’s always at least one in a crowd…any crowd. For example, parents who will disown their kids if they don’t do this, that, or the other. Or a “friend” who hounds a person who is not living they way said “friend” wants them to love. A boss who relentlessly micromanages over staff. That’s what OP means about controlling people. You’re right: we have the freedom to ignore them. And there is nothing they can do anyway. But they are often very annoying nonetheless.

 

[sallybutler]

Because it is easier for most of us to tell others how to behave and what to believe than it is to show by how we live our lives. And I include myself in that category, even though I don’t like being there.

Also, I think that we feel that it is proof we are right if everyone thinks the same way we do. It is why we tend to associate only with those who agree with us, watch shows and read books that reinforce our beliefs and habits This does not just relate to our religious beliefs, but to our eating habits, our sports, our politics, our clothes, our economic status, our education, etc.

 

[laircy]

I wonder how often someone calling Catholics “controlling” really means “I want to do this thing, and they told me it was not allowed”.

Any belief system will eventually run into this. I believe that this is true even if there isn’t a list of “shall nots”.

Imagine a pair of Zen Buddhists, a student and a teacher. Both have devoted themselved to following, to the best of their ability, the Noble Eightfold Path. One day the student enters sesshin and says, “Sensei, I wish to go down to the local orphanage and chainsaw all the children to death.”

“This,” replies the teacher, “is evil. I will not allow you to do it. It violates the principles of right action and right effort.”

“You Buddhists are all so controlling.”

Yes, that’s an extreme example, but substitute a priest for the sensei and a man who wants to remarry without an anullment and it fits the same pattern.

Anyone who takes a stance for right and against wrong (or at least their possibly flawed perceptions of it) is going to appear “narrow minded” at times.

I think most people are very narrow minded when it comes to running red lights or driving recklessly in general. You have to drive on the correct side of the road, in one lane at a time, go a certain speed, not bump into anyone, follow all the signs. Seems pretty narrow minded in comparison to driving all over the place regardless of whether there are roads to take, structures or people in the way! But it’s necessary to drive safely.

What else are we narrow about? Any sort of test at school where there are right and wrong answers. Notably, mathematics. You cannot just put down random numbers and demand that your teacher says it’s right. It’s not.

There are grammar rules, where we use the same 26 letters to form words and make sense with them. Not following them runs the risk of confusion or misinterpretation.

How about building things? You have to know the right math for the right physics for the right engineering. Not much room for mistakes, because you’ll put others or yourself in danger.

Or knitting a sweater. Do it right or you won’t have a sweater but a mess of yarn.

The way biology works is often narrow minded. If one amino acid is changed in someone’s DNA, it could give them a terrible disease.

I could go on.

See, while there are definite rules governing the world and society, most of the time we think nothing of them, because they are not “restraints” but guides on how to do something, rather than shrivel into failure. Catholics recognize that this doesn’t suddenly end when it comes to our moral lives. We aren’t perfect either, but some of us at least want to be good, and help others to be good too.

 

[Rence]

Anyone who takes a stance for right and against wrong (or at least their possibly flawed perceptions of it) is going to appear “narrow minded” at times.

I think most people are very narrow minded when it comes to running red lights or driving recklessly in general. You have to drive on the correct side of the road, in one lane at a time, go a certain speed, not bump into anyone, follow all the signs. Seems pretty narrow minded in comparison to driving all over the place regardless of whether there are roads to take, structures or people in the way! But it’s necessary to drive safely.

What else are we narrow about? Any sort of test at school where there are right and wrong answers. Notably, mathematics. You cannot just put down random numbers and demand that your teacher says it’s right. It’s not.

There are grammar rules, where we use the same 26 letters to form words and make sense with them. Not following them runs the risk of confusion or misinterpretation.

How about building things? You have to know the right math for the right physics for the right engineering. Not much room for mistakes, because you’ll put others or yourself in danger.

Or knitting a sweater. Do it right or you won’t have a sweater but a mess of yarn.

The way biology works is often narrow minded. If one amino acid is changed in someone’s DNA, it could give them a terrible disease.

I could go on.

See, while there are definite rules governing the world and society, most of the time we think nothing of them, because they are not “restraints” but guides on how to do something, rather than shrivel into failure. Catholics recognize that this doesn’t suddenly end when it comes to our moral lives. We aren’t perfect either, but some of us at least want to be good, and help others to be good too.

Yes, one has to follow the pattern to knit a sweater, and must do the stitches correctly and in the correct gauge and with the correct yarn gauge and needles. Any deviation will not necessarily come out ‘incorrect’ but different than the original pattern. However, when it comes to dictating to another person, for example, that they are not holding the needles correctly, that’s a bit controlling. So is telling someone that they’re not milking the cow
‘correctly’ despite milking out 4 gallons. And BTW, DNA is controlled by God actually. We don’t control that.

You could go on and on all day with practical examples you listed above. That’s not the same thing as people being controlling. And I think you know that

 

[Rence]

I wonder how often someone calling Catholics “controlling” really means “I want to do this thing, and they told me it was not allowed”…

Well of course it is considered controlling. Especially when one is told ‘it’s not allowed’ unsolicited, and even more so when the recipient of such ‘fraternal correction’ doesn’t share the same belief system as the one soliciting the ‘rules’.

 

[laircy]

Yes, one has to follow the pattern to knit a sweater, and must do the stitches correctly and in the correct gauge and with the correct yarn gauge and needles. Any deviation will not necessarily come out ‘incorrect’ but different than the original pattern. However, when it comes to dictating to another person, for example, that they are not holding the needles correctly, that’s a bit controlling. So is telling someone that they’re not milking the cow
‘correctly’ despite milking out 4 gallons. And BTW, DNA is controlled by God actually. We don’t control that.

You could go on and on all day with practical examples you listed above. That’s not the same thing as people being controlling. And I think you know that

The difference seems to be in what people classify as “controlling.” Someone hovering over you to watch your every move would, yes, be controlling, but I was more referring to the situation which I quoted, where someone accuses someone else of being “controlling” just because they take a stance on morality.

Yeah, with DNA I was just referring to “the way things are” rather than what we do.

 

[PJM]

Originally Posted by Seaborgium View Post
I don’t have a problem with the tenets of faith, but catholics themselves, from priests to people that I know, they are so controlling. Even on this forum, you can feel the oppression of catholics imposing their edited version of the truth.

Generally speaking, why are catholics so controlling. They don’t criticise their own church for its wrong doings, to keep the peace, but at what cost? Morality is the cost.
What do you mean controlling?{/QUOTE]

{QUOTE] The RPLY

Are they putting a gun to your head and threatening death if you don’t do as they say?

Or are.they merely saying things you don’t want to hear?

If it is the latter, you have the freedom to ignore them. There is nothing they can do anyway.

What is so controlling about that?

When I read a post like the top one; the first question that comes to MY MIND, is to ask if the person is an informed and fully practicing rroman Catholic:shrug:

What is the “up-side” for critizing what the secular press has sationalized? Are we to just blindly jump on that wagon?

I can see where non-catholics might feel that we are “narrow minded” in our beliefs, comming from a backgound of being able to pretty much believe whatever one chooses to accept, BUT truth HAS always been singular perdefiend issue. That is uncjangablee fact.

So are we wrong for insisting on GOD:S truth> Of course not. So LONG is it is factual and done with charity.

God Bless you friends,
Patrick

 

[pwlj_christ87]

the Church is only so “controlling” because of the years of doctrines and lessons that various saints have added to our collection of wonderful resources to be used…when looked upon without faith and from the outside, it seems the Church is too much to bear… quite the opposite… we follow our LORD Jesus and its precepts and doctrines are years of wonderful service given to us

we are all controlled… either by sin or by God… which one is worse? which one do you want to pick? choose Good, choose eternal salvation… Jesus is the Head master and only that house remains

 

[Sarcelle]

The OP means people (and in this case, Catholics) who try to control others by hounding, pressuring, having a condescending attitude, imposing ‘fraternal correction’ in an ‘unloving’ but definitely unwanted way. I’m sure you know what the OP means. There’s always at least one in a crowd…any crowd. For example, parents who will disown their kids if they don’t do this, that, or the other. Or a “friend” who hounds a person who is not living they way said “friend” wants them to love. A boss who relentlessly micromanages over staff. That’s what OP means about controlling people. You’re right: we have the freedom to ignore them. And there is nothing they can do anyway. But they are often very annoying nonetheless.

Oh okay. Thanks for the explanation.

My spiritual advisor told me to examine my motives when offering correction to another. Am I motivated by pride and conceit, with a holier than thou attitude or is it out of genuine concern and desire for the well being of another? If it is the former, than I committed the sin of pride.

You can say the same about these controlling Catholics.

 

[edwest2]

I don’t have a problem with the tenets of faith, but catholics themselves, from priests to people that I know, they are so controlling. Even on this forum, you can feel the oppression of catholics imposing their edited version of the truth.

Generally speaking, why are catholics so controlling. They don’t criticise their own church for its wrong doings, to keep the peace, but at what cost? Morality is the cost.

You’ll have to provide some specific examples to get good answers.

Peace,
Ed

 

[edwest2]

I actually hear what you are saying. As someone who has grown up in Catholic schools and even went to a Catholic university, I do believe that many Catholics tend to be very narrow-minded, black and white thinkers and a little on the judgmental side. I’m not saying that judgment is bad, but I do think that judgment without wisdom is destructive. And many people in our culture use judgement without taking things in the bigger perspective.

As a creative, open-minded and moderate-leaning person, I find that I tend to be drawn to non-Catholics. Many Catholics tend to think that being open-minded is a sin, and the road to hell, but honestly some of the most devoted, spiritual people I know are artists.

But I think what is more to the point is that while people may be one religion or another, we are all a product of our culture. The American culture permeates us all whether we are agnostic, atheist, protestant, muslim etc. At the end of the day, a lot of the richness, spirituality and mysticism of the Catholic faith is left behind in America due to the American obsession with utilitarianism, materialism, achievement and extroversion. As a result, the Catholic faith is skewed with Catholics that tend to emphasize those elements of the Catholic faith, for better or for worse. And don’t get me wrong, there are many good things to come out of the American Catholic faith community, but I do think that there’s also a lot missing.

In other words, if you are someone that is really more of a Catholic that is drawn in by the mystical, contemplative and meditative elements of the church, then you will probably feel uncomfortable in most Catholic faith communities in America, and possibly most faith communities in America in general.

Personally, I don’t have many Catholic friends. I try to surround myself with other types of people, but my faith is my faith and I believe in it, despite the fact that in America, Catholicism in many respects is just a sub-culture of Americanism.

I do hope that people wake up and realize that our culture is not our friend. It was at one time. I know a lot of artists and I follow the art scene. I’ll just say that the philosophical current is generally not a good one. Generalizations are usually not true. None us can say “they’re all like that” or make assumptions about people we don’t know.

I am friends with Catholics and non-Catholics. Among the people I know, some have allowed themselves to imitate others around them while others haven’t. Catholics do need to make friends with other Catholics and associate with other Catholics. That’s not to say my non-Catholic friends aren’t good people. We all struggle in life but we need to remember what society should be:

“If we cannot have common values, common truths, sufficient communication on the essentials of human life–how to live how to respond to the great challenges of human life–then true society becomes impossible.” Pope Benedict

I’ve had my share of time with various sub-cultures, and then they evaporated. I grew up with some wonderful Catholic role models. No, they were not perfect, but even at a young age, I could tell these people really tried to live out their faith daily.

Peace,
Ed