Why are Catholics so interested in the LDS faith?

[BJ_Colbert]

flameburns623:

Christian Science, the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (known now as the Communities of Christ) and Unitarian-Universalism seldom come up on these forums: these are DECLINING denominations which seldom come up in the news as topical subjects and which seldom target the Roman Catholic or Protestant churches for missionizing.

Hence, some of the causes for the interest in the LDS Church: it is a fast-growing church, frequently in the news, which makes claims directly challenging those made by the mainstream Christian bodies, and which targets those with a Christian heritage for conversion.

BTW: Cathoolics are rather oversensitized to the idea that any sort of disagreement or even divergence from what they believe to be the truth is an ‘attack’. I think it is unfair to suggest that the LDS Church actively spends much time ‘attacking the Catholic Church’. The theology of the LDS Church is inimical to that of traditional Christianity and therefore those who accept the tenets of Mormonism inevitably contradict the tenets of Christianity in explicating their own views–but this is not, of itself, an ‘attack’. And Mormons who are former Catholics often tell horror stories, not all of these fully creditable or truly representative of how Catholicism is lived and practiced generally, but this also is not an attack. At worst it is a self-serving way of justifying themselves; at best, an account of some real and possibly tragic event in their own lives. And Catholics who are former Mormons are likely as not prone to engage in similar tale-telling, for similar reasons.

Thank You, this is just what I meant and I truly did not mean to be sarcastic at all. I merely stated what I understood Paul Dupre to be saying in his answer. If you all re-read his statement you may understand why I answered as I did. BJ

 

[BJ_Colbert]

majick275:

BJ, why do you launch these bitter sarcastic attacks? You accuse those who disagree with you as ignorant and yet you are one of those who has had to learn about your own religion here. Many of us are former LDS (so apparently the Catholic church is making such great inroads in converting Mormons that LDS membes feel a need to go to CATHOLIC ANSWERS and defend their faith…) Many of us taught missionary discussions, seminary, institute, priesthood, gospel doctrine, etc. We feel that we can give accurate answers to CATHOLICS who are curious about things. We also feel able to provide accurate answers to curious Mormons who chose to come to CATHOLIC ANSWERS to ask questions.

I am tired of the dissembling, supressing, and outright falsifying of the “orwellian” “Packerite” wannabe missionaries who think that this forum exists for them to seek converts in. Let those who are seeking to join with the LDS church go the many LDS websites and there receive instruction in a mannner that is intended for would be converts.

Here is a Catholic site for the preaching of the Catholic doctrine. The LDS church uses it’s own sites to vigorously defend the “Mormon” faith. To call out the Catholic church for doing the same is absolute hypocrisy especially for a church that has repeatedly referred to ours as the great and abonimable church of the devil.

I find your lack of civility disturbing and uncalled for.

Now… I do hope that the Lord will bless you and your family with joy regardless of what church (es) you chose to attend. Peace be with you.

Majick, I am truely sorry you considered my post an attack, I really was responding more to Paul Dupre than the rest of the posts.
The posts from yourself, jgcase, pug, mep and some of the others were very fair and exactly the answers I was wanting from the Forum members. Those posts answered my question much more clearly and fairly than Paul Dupre’s answer. He stated we were targeting Catholics and spreading vicious falsehoods and on and on, you may find this a civil answer to my question, but it is not what I consider civil.
I should have put his post in quotes with my answer, but I didn’t and so all of you thought my answer was an attack on the Catholic Church. I respect the Church, it is my husband’s faith. I just thought Paul Dupre was off base with his answer. Most of the rest of the answers were great.
Thank You all, BJ

 

[BJ_Colbert]

PaulDupre:

Hi BJ,
We are very interested in exposing the LDS faith because:

1. Mormons specifically target Catholics for conversion.
2. Mormons consistently spread vicious falsehoods about the Catholic faith and Christianity in general. (That was one of the first things that made me doubt the LDS leaders - I heard some slanderous lies from the GA’s)
3. LDS are deceptive - they misrepresent the Church’s history and doctrines to investigators and other non-members. It isn’t until the investigator is already baptised that he begins to learn what the Church really teaches. That’s one reason convert retention rates are so low.

Is this what you all consider a civil post about the LDS Church? Try substituting the word Catholic where ever Paul has used the word Mormon or LDS and you may see why I was a bit taken aback, and responded in kind. I was asking him if the things I said in my post were correct according to the above post.
I do not think they are, but you may make your own conclusions. If his post would not be offensive to any of you, then I apologize for misunderstanding his kind words and taking offense at them. BJ
As a former LDS missionary I can tell you that the “Elders” are instructed that Catholics are easy targets. LDS missionaries are also very active in predominantly Catholic countries, trying to lure gullible people away from the faith of their fathers.

We are just defending the truth and informing the unsuspecting. Hopefully those who read these forums will not fall for the missionaries’ tricks.

God love you,
Paul

 

[majick275]

BJ
You are loved by the Lord. May you and your family be blessed with understanding that will bring your family closer together, may yuor husband be blessed with comfort form his afflictions and may you all have peace and joy.

I just wanted you to know that even when we disagree, I still love you and pray for you.

 

[BJ_Colbert]

Thank you, I feel the same about you and wish only to understand another faith as much as it is possible to understand. I do not like the slander and slaughter that some undertake in the name of defending their faith. I do not wish to be one of those, and I hope you will forgive any slight to your faith that you feel I have made.
I love the Lord with all my heart and only wish to serve him and keep his commandments to the best of my ability.
I have truely never been in a class where we were told to target Catholics or any other religion. I have never instructed my children to target their friends for conversion, as has been insinuated in some of these threads.
Of course we want to share what we feel is the complete gospel of Jesus Christ, but always always respect other religions and other peoples beliefs. I am afraid it is too rough in this forum for me.
Thanks for trying to educate me, I do appreciate the great efforts you have all put forth.
BJ

 

[alterserver_07]

BJ Colbert:

Why do Catholics spend so much time and money buying and reading all things pro and con(mostly con)about the " Mormon "Church?

Why not?

 

[sara888]

BJ,

Why are you on a catholic forum, I am not on a Mormon or LDS discussion board questioning LDS memebers.?

I just find the doctrine of the LDS beyond belief, I mean its beyond bizzare.

Its rooted in unreality, almost sci-fi

Sara

 

[Jerusha]

Few Catholics really do any study of Mormonism, and most believe that it is nothing more than another Christian denomination. I think your perception is skewed because we are openly discussing it here, and you have not seen such open discussion before. I assure you, we have the right to do so, if only to inform others.

In some areas of the country, disclosure of certain aspects of LDS theology and history are soundly discouraged, and people who do discuss such subjects encounter serious difficulties in their lives.

Catholics have the right to discuss Mormonism in depth among ourselves, and not just recieve the insipid pablum contrived by the missionary talks.

 

[BJ_Colbert]

sara888:

BJ,

Why are you on a catholic forum, I am not on a Mormon or LDS discussion board questioning LDS memebers.?

I just find the doctrine of the LDS beyond belief, I mean its beyond bizzare.

Its rooted in unreality, almost sci-fi

Sara

I am on the forum, because I came here searching for answers for my Catholic husband, who is paralyzed on the right side and can’t use the computer himself. I just stumbled on the LDS site and read some of the things Catholics thought about LDS and found them just as bizzare as you find them. I could not believe people thought those things and thought I might correct their misconceptions, but I was wrong. The Catholics who believe the bizzare wish to continue believing the bizzare and no amount of clarification will make them think otherwise.
My husband who has been attending LDS meetings as well as Mass for 6 years does not find the Mormon religion bizare at all, in fact he has started taking the lessons, because he has read the Book of Mormon and believes it is true. What is bizzare about people settling the Americas 600 years before Jesus Christ was born? We know there were many people here and they came from asia, and we believe they came also from Jerusalem. There are many stories of the worlds peoples that are unknown to mainstream Christians. Why would the people who inhabited this continent not keep records and a history of their people just like the people writing the Bible did?
To me that is not bizzare at all, it is very logical. Having seen the ruins in Mexico and Central America, it is very believable. Most of the ruins have not even been uncovered yet. As in Tikal, there is a 50 square mile city still mostly covered by jungle.
Having attended mass for 6 years with my husband, I find that the basic gospel based on the Bible is very similar between the Mormons and all other Christian religions. We just know about the people in the Americas and no one else does.
I find some of the beliefs of the Catholic Church very bizare. For example the Marian Doctrines. I know that these are very logical to you, but to me they are verging on the occult. It is simply because they are unfamiliar to me, not because they are occult.
As people become more familiar with things they have never heard of then it becomes less strange to them. I am becoming more familiar with the Catholic beliefs and therefore they are not as shocking and strange as I once thought they were.
I can understand now the reasons behind the beliefs of Catholics. It has been explained to me in this forum very patiently by many forum members about the Eucharist and how it literally changes to body and blood of Christ. It has been explained to me why people in the Catholic Church kiss and leave offerings to statues, and why they have statues filling the Church. It has been explained to me how Mary can appear in the water stains of a freeway underpass, and walk on top of a roof in Egypt. It has been explained to me how objects in the house of a comatose girl in Connecticut can bleed, and why Catholics visit these places and leave offerings.
I understand these things from your perspective now, but still they seem bizzare to me. So I can see why you think our beliefs are quite bizzare. It is because you do not really understand as I will never really understand all of the above. I do understand why the Catholics find these things believable and I respect their belief, as it is my husband’s belief and I love him very much.
BJ

 

[Jerusha]

What is bizzare about people settling the Americas 600 years before Jesus Christ was born? We know there were many people here and they came from asia, and we believe they came also from Jerusalem. There are many stories of the worlds peoples that are unknown to mainstream Christians. Why would the people who inhabited this continent not keep records and a history of their people just like the people writing the Bible did?

It is bizarre in that no American Indian in contact with his/her heritage believes this. The white man has no right to say that the Indians were recent arrivals when this flies in the face of archeological evidence, DNA, and tradition. We have always been here, whether we believe in the literal “always”, or that 14,000 years is close enough.

Yes, there is a general belief in some diffusionist influences, a FEW visitors who stayed, perhaps Chinese, Polynesians, Phoenicians, Vikings, Irish, West Africans.

To believe that American Indians are all descendants of recent arrivals is to attempt to rationalize and justify the injusticies heaped upon them. There is no justice to that, and it is all a confabulation to ease the collective white conscience.

Here is a link to a piece of fiction, a parable:
indiancountry.com/content.cfm?id=1096411422

The BOM is just as much a piece of fiction, with no redeeming meaning, other than perhaps presenting a diffusionist theory.

 

[sara888]

**BJ,

Mormon Theology was not taught by Apostles to Christ’s Church .

12 Mormon Doctrines not taught by Christ’s ealry Chruch nor anyone else before Joseph Smith invented them in the 1830’s

How did these ideas get into the Holy Bible if the Apostles did not teach them? Was Joseph Smith the first person in the history of the world to teach these ideas?**

Its not just Catholics who don’t embrace or comprehend the teachings of your doctrine, most Protestant’s do not profess such teachings.

Sara

 

[BJ_Colbert]

Jerusha:

It is bizarre in that no American Indian in contact with his/her heritage believes this. The white man has no right to say that the Indians were recent arrivals when this flies in the face of archeological evidence, DNA, and tradition. We have always been here, whether we believe in the literal “always”, or that 14,000 years is close enough.

Yes, there is a general belief in some diffusionist influences, a FEW visitors who stayed, perhaps Chinese, Polynesians, Phoenicians, Vikings, Irish, West Africans.

To believe that American Indians are all descendants of recent arrivals is to attempt to rationalize and justify the injusticies heaped upon them. There is no justice to that, and it is all a confabulation to ease the collective white conscience.

Here is a link to a piece of fiction, a parable:
indiancountry.com/content.cfm?id=1096411422

The BOM is just as much a piece of fiction, with no redeeming meaning, other than perhaps presenting a diffusionist theory.

I did say that it is as bizzare to Catholics as the things I pointed out were bizzare to us. So I do agree that it seems bizarre to you.
Also, I know you are very sensitive about the American Indians, which we do not claim are full-blooded decendants anyway. The Mayan people which are not American Indians would be a closer guess. But, again just a guess as no one knows positively which tribes are decendants of the Lamanites. It was naturally assumed in the early days of the church because those were the people they met. They did not know then about the Mexican tribes and Central American tribes which now with the later discoveries seem to fit the description more than the American Indians.
But, the whole point is that our beliefs are bizzare to you and your beliefs are just as bizzare to us. Because neither of us will ever be able to understand the other’s belief, no matter how hard we try to explain. It just does not compute in my brain to be drinking actual blood and actual flesh. I think it is a beautiful concept for you, but I think our concept that the Sacrament represents Jesus body and blood makes more sense.
Sorry to touch the sore spot about the American Indians, but I personally do not believe the Lamanites were the ancestors of the American Indian, except where they may have intermarried with the Mayans. Also last week there were new discoveries some of the American Indians on the west coast were intermarried with Polynesians who came by boat from the South Pacific Islands. There are two Anthropologists who just put this information out based on the fact that the canoes they built were almost identical in design, and a few other similarities like the word for boat was similar. Quite interesting, but again all is still speculation and not sure knowledge.
I appreciate your posts very much, and I agree with you on this one. BJ

 

[majick275]

From the introduction in the current version of the Book of Mormon (available online at www.lds.org):

The Book of Mormon is a volume of holy scripture comparable to the Bible. It is a record of God’s dealings with the ancient inhabitants of the Americas and contains, as does the Bible, the fulness of the everlasting gospel.
The book was written by many ancient prophets by the spirit of prophecy and revelation. Their words, written on gold plates, were quoted and abridged by a prophet-historian named Mormon. The record gives an account of two great civilizations. One came from Jerusalem in 600 B.C., and afterward separated into two nations, known as the Nephites and the Lamanites. The other came much earlier when the Lord confounded the tongues at the Tower of Babel. This group is known as the Jaredites. After thousands of years, all were destroyed except the Lamanites, and they are the principal ancestors of the American Indians.

 

[Jerusha]

Lamanites, and they are the principal ancestors of the American Indians.

Good response, Majick.

but I personally do not believe the Lamanites were the ancestors of the American Indian, except where they may have intermarried with the Mayans.

Nice contrast. BJ is mellowing out.

 

[sara888]

**

If the Book of Mormon is the “most correct book of any on earth” ( then why does it not contain essential Mormon doctrines such as…

Church organization
Plurality of Gods
Plurality of wives doctrine
Word of Wisdom
God is an exalted man
Celestial marriage
Men may become Gods
Three degrees of glory
Baptism for the dead
Eternal progression
The Aaronic Priesthood
Melchizedek Priesthood **

 

[Jerusha]

The mother culture of the Maya was Olmec.

crystalinks.com/olmec.html

And their statues are of people who had a distinct African heritage-- clearly not Semitic.

 

[Brad_Haas]

(Answering the original post)

I fell in love with a Mormon.

 

[Jerusha]

Many of them are nice people, although very misled. Others are just downright rabid.

 

[BJ_Colbert]

sara888:

**If the Book of Mormon is the “most correct book of any on earth” ( then why does it not contain essential Mormon doctrines such as… **

**Church organization **
**Plurality of Gods **
**Plurality of wives doctrine **
**Word of Wisdom **
**God is an exalted man **
**Celestial marriage **
**Men may become Gods **
**Three degrees of glory **
**Baptism for the dead **
**Eternal progression **
**The Aaronic Priesthood **
**Melchizedek Priesthood **

With the exception of Celestial Marriage, Three degrees of glory, Baptism for the dead, eternal progression and the Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthoods which are contained in the Bible. The Word of Wisdom, and Church organization are contained in the Doctrine and Covenants as modern day revelation to Joseph Smith.
The other things you mention are not church doctrine, only things put forth by non members for shock value. Plygamy as you know was practiced for a short time in the 1800s and is no longer practiced. The other things have been discussed in this forum till all LDS are blue in the face from repeating, and still the Catholics insist we believe things we do not.
It is good that you have read the Book of Mormon, that is better than I have done with the Catholic Catechism and Catholic Bible. I have read parts, but not the complete writings.
We say the Book of Mormon is the most correct because it was only translated once by Joseph Smith with the guidance of our Father in Heaven. So unlike the Bible which was translated many many times by many men. It would seem to be more correct as far as mistakes by man. But, not totally without flaw, as Joseph Smith was a man, and not always in tune with the Lord. Many times he was given reprimand by the Lord for not being prayerful enough and open to receiving the Holy Spirit’s guidance.
Your question is a very good one, thank you for asking and I hope that as bizarre as it seems my answer at least gave another perspective to your misunderstanding of our doctrine.
BJ

 

[BJ_Colbert]

majick275:

From the introduction in the current version of the Book of Mormon (available online at www.lds.org)::/)

The Book of Mormon is a volume of holy scripture comparable to the Bible. It is a record of God’s dealings with the ancient inhabitants of the Americas and contains, as does the Bible, the fulness of the everlasting gospel.
The book was written by many ancient prophets by the spirit of prophecy and revelation. Their words, written on gold plates, were quoted and abridged by a prophet-historian named Mormon. The record gives an account of two great civilizations. One came from Jerusalem in 600 B.C., and afterward separated into two nations, known as the Nephites and the Lamanites. The other came much earlier when the Lord confounded the tongues at the Tower of Babel. This group is known as the Jaredites. After thousands of years, all were destroyed except the Lamanites, and they are the principal ancestors of the American Indians.

As I said above there are current discoveries being made and no one really knows what will come of the new information being discovered on a daily basis by anthropologists. We only know the speculations of current times and a few anthropologists, there are many who disagree and have just as valid credentials as the ones who have put forth the proof you and Jerusha claim to have. I can quote others with a completely different view, but it really doesn’t matter as far as the Book of Mormon is concerned. There were so many peoples from every part of the world settling in the New World, that it would be impossible to test every one of them to find where they originated.
If you personally have done the testing of every tribe in North, Central and South America, then I would be very interested in your findings, but I doubt you have. So what you say is only hearsay and what I say is only hearsay. Neither of us can prove beyond a shadow of doubt what the other believes is true or false.

As for myself, my believe and faith comes from God Himself and not from the imaginings of men. I have personal testimony from the Holy Spirit through prayer and study, that what I believe to be true is true.
It really doesn’t faze me that you have your own beliefs about my faith, any more than it fazes you that I have my own thoughts about your beliefs.
Peace to you, through Christ our Lord,
BJ