Why are Catholics so interested in the LDS faith?

[BJ_Colbert]

Thanks, I guess there are a lot of songs in the hymnal that I have never heard. We mostly sing the old familiar ones, maybe that one was popular before I was born, like 100 years ago or so.
You guys know everything, kind of like a trivia game about LDS. How do you find all of this stuff?
Do you just google up Kolob and read every reference, or what?
I would never have any idea how to find things like that, just out of thin air.
I am always amazed at the answers you give.
BJ

 

[PaulDupre]

BJ Colbert:

Thanks, I guess there are a lot of songs in the hymnal that I have never heard. We mostly sing the old familiar ones, maybe that one was popular before I was born, like 100 years ago or so.
You guys know everything, kind of like a trivia game about LDS. How do you find all of this stuff?
Do you just google up Kolob and read every reference, or what?
I would never have any idea how to find things like that, just out of thin air.
I am always amazed at the answers you give.
BJ

I lived as a devout Mormon for 11 years, and read EVERYTHING. Also, my ex-wife was the ward chorister when we met and served in that capacity in 3 different wards, so I got to know a lot of hymns.
Paul

 

[majick275]

aaah so you had an advantage there. I have always been an avid reader but since I have NO musical talent whatsoever I never spent much time with the hymnal. I can’t carry a tune in a bucket with both hands. The attempt to do so is usually met with much weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth.

 

[ben_dy]

BJ Colbert:

Interesting song, funny that in 63 years of being LDS, this is the first time I ever heard such a song. Where in the world did you get the copy?
One other comment is that we have never believed that God lives on Kolob. It was mentioned in one place in Abraham, I believe, that he lived near a star called Kolob, not that it was a planet that he lived on. What book did you read to find all of this
information that you have quoted above?
Thanks for any clarification you may give me.
BJ

BJ-

If you Google “Hie to Kolob” (using quotation marks) you’ll get 1,150 ‘hits’ that mention or talk about the hymn - I copy and pasted from one of the LDS sites on which the hymn in mentioned: I actually copied and pasted it into a Word document but the lyrics are available online and there’s a site where you can download the hymn (for $3!!!) as sung by the Mormon Tabernacle Choir. My GIANT word document only notes that the hymn was ‘once popular’ - and I can imagine why, after 1967-1968 it may have lost some of its popularity.

As I read further, though, I note that Kolob is said to be the STAR nearest to God and NOT a planet but I was confused (as my notes show) why one would (as the hymn says) go to Kolob which is a fiery star - but then I have another note that says that according to LDS doctrine even fiery suns are inhabited - but my confusion is still great because in Abraham 3 God says that Kolob revolves 1 day for each 1,000 years that the earth revolves around the sun (thus leading me to believe that Kolob was, indeed, an inhabited planet, star or no star - but I don’t know for a fact that that is LDS theology: chapter 3 of the Book of Abraham is one of those areas that I find ‘complex’.

OK, so Shinehah, God says, is “the sun”, Kokob is a “star” (which is either a misprint in the PoGP that I have or another star entirely from Kolob), Olea is “the moon” and Kokaubeam “all great lights” which I take to be the universe? Kolob, God says, “is the greatest of all the Kokaubeam that thou hast seen, for it is nearest to me,” so I hope you can see where my confusion lies as to which, exactly, is the planet (or star) that God actually inhabits? My misunderstanding of Kolob as star or planet lies in Abraham 3:9 - “And thus there shall be the reckoning of time of one planet above another, until though come nigh unto Kolob, which Kolob is after the reckoning of the Lord’s time; which Kolob is set nigh unto the throne of God, to govern all those planets which belong to the same order as that upon which thou standest.”

So you can see, I hope, where my misunderstanding of Kolob as a planet comes from - it seems logical that one planet would be “above another” if it’s the home of God, but more difficult to understand why a star that is “near unto” God would be “above another” if “another” is “the same order as that upon which thou standest.”

Anyway - I admit that it’s beyond my comprehension but from the LDS sources that I did find (most pre-1958) my understanding was that Kolob was, indeed, the home of heavenly father and mother.

Ben

 

[ben_dy]

BJ Colbert:

How do you find all of this stuff?
Do you just google up Kolob and read every reference, or what?
I would never have any idea how to find things like that, just out of thin air
BJ

BJ,

As I was doing my LDS ‘research’ I depended on 40+ books and, yes, made use of Google and Lexis/Nexis when things seemed ‘fishy’ or when I came across something that I didn’t understand or that seemed to be in dispute within the LDS community itself (and/or those who call themselves LDS but do not strictly adhere to the current teachings of the LDS. And some of the answers to LDS doctrine seem very simple - the revelations in the D&C, for instance, are pretty straight-forward (some so much that they actually ‘name names’ but some, such as the command to avoid ‘hot drinks’ open to a wide variety of interpretation - caffeinated drinks? Soups? Hot cocoa?, etc. To find out the answer to that you have to go first to see if a clarification by a prophet and, if not, at least by an apostle or quorum member (who disagree widely on the subject but who are not infallible).

Further problems are presented in reading various other LDS publications which are not accepted as ‘scripture’ but which do present doctrine written or proclaimed by prophets who, as Brigham Young said, preach sermons that are to be taken as if it were revealed and written scripture, that is they are to be taken as infallible. That’s where Google helps a great deal because there are just as many websites that are pro-LDS as there are anti-LDS (usually, I found, run by ex-LDS which is not, I suppose, surprising at all).

There’s an amazing amount of information on the web about the LDS church - one that I found (I’ll see if I bookmarked it) had the most complete amount of information that I found on any one site yet had a low number of ‘hits’ on some subjects (I think it was something like 135 hits for the Young ‘God-Adam’ page) and an EXTRAORDINARILY high number of hits on other subjects (a treatise on how to handle masturbation, for instance, had 15,000 hits - rather indicative of just WHAT folks are Googling, I think).

Although I’ve told myself that I’ve ‘completed’ my ‘research’ on the LDS church I still find that the subject is still of interest to me and every couple of days or so I’ll be searching for an answer to another question regarding the LDS. One thing I have been careful about, however, is to make certain that my time spent ‘researching’ the LDS church DOES NOT interfere with the practice and continual learning about my OWN faith - that is, Christianity as evidenced in the Catholic Church! If I found that I began ‘excusing’ myself from Mass because I had research to do on one aspect of LDS doctrine, I would KNOW that I was NOT doing that which God would have me do!

Ben

 

[Chris-WA]

BJ Colbert:

Interesting song, funny that in 63 years of being LDS, this is the first time I ever heard such a song. Where in the world did you get the copy?
One other comment is that we have never believed that God lives on Kolob. It was mentioned in one place in Abraham, I believe, that he lived near a star called Kolob, not that it was a planet that he lived on. What book did you read to find all of this
information that you have quoted above?
Thanks for any clarification you may give me.
BJ

Well, BJ, we’ve all read statements from you time and time again that “I’ve never heard of that or been taught that.” You’ve often used this statement to prove that we didn’t know what we were talking about when it came to the LDS church. Though this is a small example, now you can see that just because you never heard of or was taught something in your 63 years of being LDS, it doesn’t necessarily mean that we’re crazy when we tried to explain what the LDS church teaches or did teach.

I’ve heard this statement from LDS many times. It arises from ever-changing teaching and doctrine. I think many LDS are completely unaware of the often bizarre teachings of the older prophets, and when you point it out to them they dismiss it by saying they never heard of it, so it must not be true. Add that to the automatic response that anything that challenges LDS teaching is “anti-Mormon,” and it’s a guarantee that your average LDS stays in the dark about such important issues.

 

[Katzpur]

ben_dy:

And as to plural marriage - as I read the D&C the commandment of plural marriage is still in full effect and declaration #1 does not contain any revelation repudiating the doctrine itself only a letter that plural marriages are no longer (with one exception) were found to have been practiced in Utah at the time the letter was written, and that it is more expedient for the LDS to conform to the laws of government, so that life could continue (for the most part - excepting plural marriage temporarily) as usual for LDS members. I’ve read of the Manifesto but never seen it actually published (unlike other ‘revelations’ in the D&C),

I’m not sure whether I’m following you or not, but the Manifesto is published in full in the Doctrine and Covenants, as Official Declatation #1. It took effect in 1890 and continues to be in effect today. As you correctly pointed out, the doctrine itself continues to exist, but we have been commanded not to practice it any more.

As a Supreme Court Justice (O’Connor?) said - if the constitutionality of polygamy or polyandry were to come before the Court today it would like held to be legal as a legal practice. While this would justify the actions of those who you say are no longer LDS (but who claim to be ‘more’ LDS than those who have repudiated D&C 132) be able to come into communion with the LDS church once again? Would a new Manifesto be revealed allowing plural marriage once again? Or would LDS leaders, who have worked so hard to make the LDS church a mainstream religion remain bound by an updated revealed Manifesto that superseded - for time, at least - the truth of the revelation of D&C 132?

That’s impossible for me to say. In my own opinion, plural marriage would not be reinstituted.

Kathryn

 

[Katzpur]

BJ Colbert:

Interesting song, funny that in 63 years of being LDS, this is the first time I ever heard such a song. Where in the world did you get the copy?
One other comment is that we have never believed that God lives on Kolob. It was mentioned in one place in Abraham, I believe, that he lived near a star called Kolob, not that it was a planet that he lived on. What book did you read to find all of this
information that you have quoted above?
Thanks for any clarification you may give me.
BJ

Hi, BJ.

I’m about six years younger than you, so we’re probably pretty much accustomed to singing the same hymns. “If you could hie to Kolob” is in the current hymn book. I can’t find my copy or I’d tell you the page number. I’ve actually sung it in church on a few occasions. It’s got a beautiful melody, and I really like it. I guess different wards sing different hymns.

Kathryn

 

[BJRumph]

No need to be confused about Colbert’s lack of “experience”;

according to her on the “Former LDS: Do you consider the LDS church a Cult” poll/thread, Colbert had this to say about her “63 years”:

I know this is for LDS who have left the church.
I was one who left for 20 years and recently came back.

So, you see, she does not have 63 years of active lds membership.

So, if we wish to be charitable, her supposed ignorance is partially excusable, if not actually verifiable. This selective ignorance is also affected by her understandable personal agenda to hide all references to any actual differences that the lds have with Christianity in general, and the RCC in particular.

If you do not wish to be charitable, then simply compile her posts and see for your self the actual nature of her self proclaimed ignorance of church doctrine, as well as her example of what Christian Charity is supposed to look like, according to her.

No need to “chew her up and spit her out” as she defensively claims on another thread; her own words are sufficient to prove either of the above perspectives at your choosing.

 

[BJ_Colbert]

Chris-WA:

Well, BJ, we’ve all read statements from you time and time again that “I’ve never heard of that or been taught that.” You’ve often used this statement to prove that we didn’t know what we were talking about when it came to the LDS church. Though this is a small example, now you can see that just because you never heard of or was taught something in your 63 years of being LDS, it doesn’t necessarily mean that we’re crazy when we tried to explain what the LDS church teaches or did teach.

I’ve heard this statement from LDS many times. It arises from ever-changing teaching and doctrine. I think many LDS are completely unaware of the often bizarre teachings of the older prophets, and when you point it out to them they dismiss it by saying they never heard of it, so it must not be true. Add that to the automatic response that anything that challenges LDS teaching is “anti-Mormon,” and it’s a guarantee that your average LDS stays in the dark about such important issues.

I suppose you know every hymn in the Catholic Hymn book, I really was serious and not saying anyone was crazy. I was telling you I was impressed by the knowledge of these small details. I really am impressed by the knowledge here, and did not mean to start an attack on myself. I was born and raised as a Mormon and lived as such married in the Temple and giving birth to the madatory 6 children, then through divorce and circumstances was out of the church for 20 years. I am like a baby in knowledge, but learning more day by day and certainly some is from these forums.
I did not mean to come across as being facetious, I was sincerely impressed that you knew where to find that silly song. I thought it was indeed a silly song, and had honestly never heard it. Thanks again for pointing out my ignorance with such glee.
BJ

 

[BJ_Colbert]

Katzpur:

Hi, BJ.

I’m about six years younger than you, so we’re probably pretty much accustomed to singing the same hymns. “If you could hie to Kolob” is in the current hymn book. I can’t find my copy or I’d tell you the page number. I’ve actually sung it in church on a few occasions. It’s got a beautiful melody, and I really like it. I guess different wards sing different hymns.

Kathryn

Hi Katzpur,
I did find the song, that is why I commended the fellows who pointed it out to me, as amazing to find such a small insignificant thing. I am truely amazed at their knowledge and they think I am being nasty to them, by complimenting their knowledge.
Now, I am really dumbfounded at the reaction to my compliment fo their depth of knowledge of things I know absolutely nothing about. It is all I can do to read my scriptures, let alone find all of these details hidden here and there in various books. I hope someday I may gain the same knowledge, but I doubt I ever will, because I have too many things in my life that keeps me busy.
I am truely sorry if I sounded like I was being a smart aleck. Especially to Chris Wa, whom I have respected greatly from the first discussions with him on this forum. He is a true gentleman, and very knowledgeable about Catholics and Mormons.
BJ

 

[sara888]

****BJ and Katzpur,

You agree that Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary, however how do you believe he was concieved.? By the power of the Holy Spirit.? Most Chirstians worldwide profess this belief.

Now what does the TRADITIONAL MORMON profess as how The Lord was concieved?

The Tradional Mormon not the fundie sect of Mormons nor the extremist sect, yet the Traditional book of Mormon claims it is possible God Procreated with Mary the Mother of God and she gave birth to Jesus. Thanks to Joseph Smith and his bizzare teachings.

So How do you both feel he was concieved, I know Katzpur you say he was born to the Virgin Mary but How.?****

Sara

 

[amgid]

Brad Haas:

Some people make a dichotomy out of this that really isn’t there. There’s some famous quote about how it’s either Catholicism or Mormonism. That’s not really true, though. Yes, if there was no apostasy then Catholicism is the true Church. But if there was an apostasy, there’s little guarantee that Mormonism is really the restoration; anything that comes along and makes the claim could be the true Church.

An interesting observation Haas. Technically you are quite right. If we accept that the Apostasy is true, it does not logically follow that Mormonism must necessarily be the Restoration. Anybody making that claim could technically be that Restoration. The problem with that argument is that it ignores the fact that Mormonism is currently the only Church in the world that comes anywhere near making a viable claim to being that Restoration. There is no other church in the world that comes even close to competing with the LDS Church in making that claim.

amgid

 

[amgid]

“Defensor Veritatis” was too long of a name to fit here.

My Mormon girlfriend is fine; sweet and beautiful as ever, and still Mormon (but we’re still working on that), thanks for asking.

You are a very lucky guy to have a Mormon girlfriend. Not many people get to be that lucky you know. It is also a dangerous thing to have a Mormon girlfriend. You might end up getting converted!

You’ll be happy to know I finally read the Book of Mormon, so I recognize your name now.

That is a good start! I am glad to hear it. Next you should read the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price. Then you can say that you have read all the standard world of the LDS Church. After that, if you have any serious questions about them, you can bring them along and we will talk about them.

amgid

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Dear BJ;

My brother converted to the LDS faith from Catholicism just before he married into an LDS family. I’m trying to understand his new religion.

Why do you come to a Catholic forum to discuss your faith? (No criticism or suspicion here. Just curious. )

 

[amgid]

majick275:

you mean like this?

1. “I was answered that I must join none of them (Christian churches), for they were all wrong…their creeds were an abomination in [God’s] sight; that those professors were all corrupt” (Joseph Smith—History 1:19).
2. “Orthodox Christian views of God are pagan rather than Christian” (Mormon Doctrine of Deity, B. H. Roberts [General Authority], 116).
3. “Are Christians ignorant? Yes, as ignorant of the things of God as the brute beast” (Journal of Discourses, John Taylor [3rd Mormon President], 13:225).
4. “The Roman Catholic, Greek, and Protestant church, is the great corrupt, ecclesiastical power, represented by great Babylon” (Orson Pratt, Writings of an Apostle, Orson Pratt, n. 6, 84).
5. “All the priests who adhere to the sectarian [Christian] religions of the day with all their followers, without one exception, receive their portion with the devil and his angels” (The Elders Journal, Joseph Smith, ed. Vol. 1, n. 4, 60).
6. [Under the heading, “Church of the Devil,” Apostle Bruce R. McConkie lists:] “The Roman Catholic Church specifically—singled out, set apart, described, and designated as being ‘most abominable above all other churches’ (I Ne. 13:5)” (Mormon Doctrine, 1958, 129).
7. “Believers in the doctrines of modern Christendom will reap damnation to their souls (Morm. 8; Moro. 8)” (Mormon Doctrine, 1966, Bruce R. McConkie, 177).

or this?
LDS Church Publication “The Seer,” January, 1854. No. 1., Page 204-206

DOCTRINE QUESTIONS
Q. Who founded the Roman Catholic Church?
A. The Devil, through the medium of Apostates, who subverted the whole order of God by denying immediate revelation, and substituting in the place thereof, tradition and ancient revelations as a sufficient rule of faith and practice.
Q. Was not the Protestant Reformation a great benefit to the world?
A. Yes: it served to weaken the power of the mother church, and produced a great division in Satan’s kingdom–the mother being opposed to her harlot daughters, and the daughters against their most abominable mother: and in this family war, the harlot daughters became also sorely displeased with each other.

This is a perfect example of your misrepresentation of what LDS believe and teach, not the other way. Allow me to tell you what is wrong with all of these. Firstly, they are all taken out of context, and don’t mean a thing. None of them, if read in proper context, would constitute a deliberate attempt to “spread falsehood” about the Catholic Church or any other church. Secondly, they all come from things that were written or said a long time ago (most of them in fact are more than a century old), and they are not a true representation of the teachings and practices of the LDS Church today. In those days religion was more charismatic than today, and they spoke in more fiery tones than they do nowadays. Thirdly, all of them in fact are merely exaggerated expressions of the LDS belief in the apostasy of the early Christian church. Well, we do believe that the early Christian church apostatized. That is why a restoration was necessary. We make no bones about that, and don’t need to apologize for it. It is a fundamental tenet of our theology. If other people don’t like it, that is too bad, because it is true, and that is what we believe. But it is neither intended as an attack, nor does it constitute spreading falsehood or lies about the Catholic or any other church.

And for your information, we have extremely good relations with the Catholic Church, more so probably than with any other church. We cooperate closely with them in some interfaith activities, and especially in humanitarian relief efforts in disaster stricken countries. There is a thriving Catholic community in Utah, which enjoys extremely cordial relations with the LDS Church. There is Catholic cathedral in Salt Lake City. Several years ago the Catholic primate who was put in charge of Utah appealed to the LDS Church for financial assistance to help renovate the building, and the LDS Church graciously obliged. A member of the First Presidency, Thomas S. Monson, was put in charge of fund raising (from LDS members) to assist in the task. So don’t give me any of that nonsense about the LDS Church spreading falsehood about the Catholic Church. That comes more from you guys than from us.

The rest of your post is a load of garbled, gibberish nonsense, and does not deserve a reply. Kathryn was right about you. If you can’t take the trouble to put a bit more clarity, order and organization into your post, I am not going to make the effort to reply to them.

amgid

 

[BJ_Colbert]

BJ and Katzpur,

You agree that Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary, however how do you believe he was concieved.? By the power of the Holy Spirit.? Most Chirstians worldwide profess this belief.

**Now what does the TRADITIONAL MORMON profess as how The Lord was concieved? **

The Tradional Mormon not the fundie sect of Mormons nor the extremist sect, yet the Traditional book of Mormon claims it is possible God Procreated with Mary the Mother of God and she gave birth to Jesus. Thanks to Joseph Smith and his bizzare teachings.

So How do you both feel he was concieved, I know Katzpur you say he was born to the Virgin Mary but How.?

Sara

I know that Jesus was conceived by God through the power of the Holy Spirit. God is Jesus father, but he did not actually come to earth to have sex with Mary as some Catholics claim that we believe. If He had done that she would not have been a virgin, and it would not have been immaculate conception(which we believe as well as you do) There is no question she conceived by the Holy Spirit. No question in my mind or the minds of the LDS I know. I know you will bring up something by Parly P. Pratt, but he was taken down a notch by the prophet for his thoughts on that subject. I have not studied the history of everything he or anyone else said on the subject. I just know what is taught and what I have always known.
BJ

 

[amgid]

PaulDupre:

BTW, I certainly WAS an LDS Missionary. I served in the Taiwan Taipei Mission from 1977 thru 1979 under mission President Frederick W. Crook (a great guy) while you were still in kindergarten.

Paul

If that is so, then you are lying through your teeth, because you know what you are saying is not true. If what you say is true, why don’t you support it with some tangible evidence? Your accusations are an insult to all the LDS. Either backup your claims with evidence, or withdraw your accusations and apologise to LDS.

amgid

 

[Jerusha]

Background on BJ:

Biography:
I am married to a practicing Catholic, for the past 5 years. He has 4 adult children and I have 6. Location:
California Interests:
Travel, Geneology, Scripture study Occupation:
Cruise counselor Religion:
LDS

My mind is working on an explanation for her behavior. Verrrry interesting.

BJ, what kind of work do you do, and for who?

 

[BJ_Colbert]

Robert in SD:

Dear BJ;

My brother converted to the LDS faith from Catholicism just before he married into an LDS family. I’m trying to understand his new religion.

Why do you come to a Catholic forum to discuss your faith? (No criticism or suspicion here. Just curious. )

I am here because I wanted answers for my Catholic husband and just happened on this forum and discovered they were discussing LDS. I have never and am not now in any other discussion forums, so this is the only one I know of. In researching the questions he had about Catholicism, I found answers for both of us. Casen, and some of the other LDS are very knowledgeable, also some of the Catholics who are very fair in their assessment of the LDS beliefs have taught me things I did not know about my own religion. Tkdnick, Tamaque, Chris-Wa and a few other Catholics really are knowledgeable on both religions. Much more so than I will ever be. So this is a pretty good place for you to learn. I think you will be able to tell the ones who are fair and the ones who are just plain filled with hate for Mormons. There are plenty of both.
Good Luck with your research,
BJ