Why Are Darwinists Scared to Read Signature in the Cell?

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There are lots of nonfiction books out there- how would you recommend deciding which to read? If proponents of a nonfiction book claim said book contains a proof of this or evidence for that, and they can’t present any such evidence that seems like an easy way to cross that book off the list.
Question for you, tjm. I’ve asked this a couple times in the thread, but since I only post once every five pages (amidst a flurry of back-and-forth argumentation – how do you have the time?), it’s gotten lost in the shuffle.

The question: Should science look into the cause of the creation of DNA? Or should we just chalk it up to randomness?

That’s all. What do you think?
 
Review
“Signature in the Cell is a defining work in the discussion of life’s origins . . . the powerful case Meyer presents cannot be ignored in any honest debate. . . [T]his book is an engaging, eye-opening, and often eye-popping read” (American Spectator )

Product Description

One hundred fifty years ago, Charles Darwin revolutionized biology, but did he refute intelligent design (ID)? In Signature in the Cell, Stephen Meyer argues that he did not.

Much confusion surrounds the theory of intelligent design. Frequently misrepresented by the media, politicians, and local school boards, intelligent design can be defended on purely scientific grounds in accordance with the same rigorous methods that apply to every proposed origin-of-life theory.

Signature in the Cell is the first book to make a comprehensive case for intelligent design based upon DNA. Meyer embarks on an odyssey of discovery as he investigates current evolutionary theories and the evidence that ultimately led him to affirm intelligent design. Clearly defining what ID is and is not, Meyer shows that the argument for intelligent design is not based on ignorance or “giving up on science,” but instead upon our growing scientific knowledge of the information stored in the cell.

A leading proponent of intelligent design in the scientific community, Meyer presents a compelling case that will generate heated debate, command attention, and find new adherents from leading scientists around the world.

From the Back Cover
Meyer tells the story of the successive attempts to solve this mystery of DNA and argues that fundamental objections now exist to the adequacy of all purely naturalistic or materialistic theories. The book then proposes a radical alternative based upon developments in molecular biology and the information sciences: it proposes the design hypothesis as the best explanation for the origin of the information necessary to produce the first life. SIGNATURE IN THE CELL will not merely provide a critique of evolutionary theories. It also shows that, based on our uniform and repeated experience-the basis of all scientific reasoning about the past-there is a strong positive case for intelligent design. From our experience we know that intelligence alone produces large amounts of information. Thus, the book shows that the argument for intelligent design from DNA is not based on ignorance or a desire to “give up on science,” but instead upon just the opposite: our growing scientific knowledge of the inner workings of the cell and our experience-based knowledge of the cause-and-effect structure of the world. For just this reason the argument for design can be formulated as a rigorous and positive scientific argument-specifically one called “an inference to the best explanation.” The book shows, ironically, that the argument for intelligent design from DNA is based on the same method of scientific reasoning that Darwin himself used.
 
Question for you, tjm. I’ve asked this a couple times in the thread, but since I only post once every five pages (amidst a flurry of back-and-forth argumentation – how do you have the time?), it’s gotten lost in the shuffle.

The question: Should science look into the cause of the creation of DNA? Or should we just chalk it up to randomness?

That’s all. What do you think?
DNA is a chemical compound- we shouldn’t devote anymore time to it’s origin than that of anything else in nature.
 
Can you render an opinion on America’s Thirty Billion Dollar Swindle (Moon landing conspiracy)? How about Did Six Million Really Die? There are thousands of books I disagree with- am I obligated to read all of them?
I know when I read a book, I gain knowledge. And when I gain knowledge, I can relay it. Am I unique in this respect?
If you want to have an opinion of those books, then yes you are obligated to have read the book.

You can have an opinion on the subject, but what if the book had new knowledge. I would hope that since Signature in the Cell is a science book, then either their is new scientific evidence, or maybe he is combining current knowledge to form a new theory. Either way, it sounds like something new. To have an opinion on the book, requires you to first read it.

I suppose if you trust someone else that has read it, and they give you their take on it, then you do not have to read it.

As for relaying knowledge, it is always not at simple as you make it out to be. I can teach you Calculus if you want to learn. But I could not teach it to you in 5 minutes. I could teach you some of the tricks (derivatives and such) but you would not understand why they work. This could lead you to misapplying them or using them on functions that they do not apply. Would this mean I taught you wrong?
 
DNA is a chemical compound- we shouldn’t devote anymore time to it’s origin than that of anything else in nature.
That’s the spirit!!! Random did it, end of story. No need to look into any more scientific depth here folks. Random did it.

Your computer is nothing more than chemical compounds. Random probably did that too…
 
If you want to have an opinion of those books, then yes you are obligated to have read the book.
So you have no opinion on holocaust, moon landing, and 9/11 denial (I just invented 9/11 denial- NYC doesn’t exist)
You can have an opinion on the subject, but what if the book had new knowledge. I would hope that since Signature in the Cell is a science book, then either their is new scientific evidence, or maybe he is combining current knowledge to form a new theory. Either way, it sounds like something new. To have an opinion on the book, requires you to first read it.
See above.
I suppose if you trust someone else that has read it, and they give you their take on it, then you do not have to read it.
As for relaying knowledge, it is always not at simple as you make it out to be. I can teach you Calculus if you want to learn. But I could not teach it to you in 5 minutes. I could teach you some of the tricks (derivatives and such) but you would not understand why they work. This could lead you to misapplying them or using them on functions that they do not apply. Would this mean I taught you wrong?
This isn’t one side teaching the other- the book supposedly contains information refuting a position I hold. Someone who read this book should have easy access to the information- to demonstrate this, they should relay some of the information.
 
Signature in the cell is not about evolution, it’s more about abiogenesis.
Thanks for the clarification. I’m sorry to say I won’t be reading the book, as I am only interested in the testable aspects of DNA analysis. I will read something on the DNA aspects of different kinds if anyone has any suggestions.

P.S. Part of my confusion came from the title of this thread, “Why Are Darwinists Scared to Read Signature in the Cell”. Did Darwin originate the theory of abiogenesis as well as the theory of evolution?
 
That’s the spirit!!! Random did it, end of story. No need to look into any more scientific depth here folks. Random did it.

Your computer is nothing more than chemical compounds. Random probably did that too…
Did I say that? If you can’t show me how the first water came to be, do I get to say “You’re anti scientific- obviously something else is at play here besides nature”
 
Thanks for the clarification. I’m sorry to say I won’t be reading the book, as I am only interested in the testable aspects of DNA analysis. I will read something on the DNA aspects of different kinds if anyone has any suggestions.
Could you elaborate some on exactly what you mean by “DNA analysis” and testable aspects of it?
P.S. Part of my confusion came from the title of this thread, “Why Are Darwinists Scared to Read Signature in the Cell”. Did Darwin originate the theory of abiogenesis as well as the theory of evolution?
I think Buffalo started the thread, so you could ask him. But it seems that most of those who propose that complex life is a result of random mutations (darwinism), also propose that the first life itself is a result of random chemical interactions. So there is a connection.
 
DNA is a chemical compound- we shouldn’t devote anymore time to it’s origin than that of anything else in nature.
Did I say that?
Yes. It sure looks like it.
If you can’t show me how the first water came to be, do I get to say “You’re anti scientific- obviously something else is at play here besides nature”
What you suggested was that DNA is not worth investigating because it is natural. End of story. Nothing more to do, just declare it is natural, and we don’t need to go further.

How the first water came to be is worthy of scientific investigation as well. I think it’s called “cosmology.” Big bang, stellar evolution, and all that.
 
Yes. It sure looks like it.

What you suggested that DNA is not worth investigating because it is natural. End of story. Nothing more to do, just declare it is natural, and we don’t need to go further.

How the first water came to be is worthy of scientific investigation as well. I think it’s called “cosmology.” Big bang, stellar evolution, and all that.
Nope. Big bang is matter and energy. Water is a specific allocation and organization of mater and energy- same as DNA. You can ‘declare’ water to be a product of ‘natural processes’ but some of us will are little more ‘open minded’ and will write books, found organizations, and get audiences before congress to defend our silly beliefs.
 
DNA is a chemical compound- we shouldn’t devote anymore time to it’s origin than that of anything else in nature.
This was the answer I was afraid of, and it is **certainly **a dodge. Science is always driven by curiosity; there is no objective motive to science. Surely you don’t think that we are equally curious about every fact in nature? No, we pick and choose. There is an obvious reason to investigate the cause of DNA, for the same reason we investigated the existence of DNA – because it helps us understand ourselves and the universe.

Can some non-ID scientist PLEASE give me a better answer, that doesn’t act as if the origin of DNA is insignificant? To repeat the question:

Should science look into the cause of the creation of DNA? Or should we just chalk it up to randomness?
 
Why Are Darwinists Scared to Read Signature in the Cell? - has been vindicated as one can well see.
I can only speak for myself, but this nonbeliever is scared to death to read this book. Based on the strong arguments contained in this book that you and ricmat have related to us, I worry that if I read this book I would have to give up dispairing in my belief that life is a meaningless absurdity and have no choice but to start believing in God and a purposeful existence. And if I started believing in God then God would save me from eternal torment and force me to live in eternal bliss upon my death, and we atheists just hate bliss and all that is good, so it makes perfect sense that I would fear reading this book. I just wish you wouldn’t point it out. It’s so embarrassing for people to know about how scared I am of this book, but the truth is the truth.

Actualy, I got so far as to open the cover one time but became very freightened and slammed it shut. It’s still sitting there on my shelf staring at me with those loving eyes and offerring eternal salvation. Boy does that give me the creeps since I love only sin and death.

Regards,
Richard Dawkins
 
I can only speak for myself, but this nonbeliever is scared to death to read this book. Based on the strong arguments contained in this book that you and ricmat have related to us, I worry that if I read this book I would have to give up dispairing in my belief that life is a meaningless absurdity and have no choice but to start believing in God and a purposeful existence. And if I started believing in God then God would save me from eternal torment and force me to live in eternal bliss upon my death, and we atheists just hate bliss and all that is good, so it makes perfect sense that I would fear reading this book. I just wish you wouldn’t point it out. It’s so embarrassing for people to know about how scared I am of this book, but the truth is the truth.

Actualy, I got so far as to open the cover one time but became very freightened and slammed it shut. It’s still sitting there on my shelf staring at me with those loving eyes and offerring eternal salvation. Boy does that give me the creeps since I love only sin and death.

Regards,
Richard Dawkins
:rotfl::rotfl:

Well, Leela, it’s good to see that you have a sense of humor. (Really!). I like you, really.
 
This was the answer I was afraid of, and it is **certainly **a dodge. Science is always driven by curiosity; there is no objective motive to science. Surely you don’t think that we are equally curious about every fact in nature? No, we pick and choose. There is an obvious reason to investigate the cause of DNA, for the same reason we investigated the existence of DNA – because it helps us understand ourselves and the universe.

Can some non-ID scientist PLEASE give me a better answer, that doesn’t act as if the origin of DNA is insignificant? To repeat the question:

Should science look into the cause of the creation of DNA? Or should we just chalk it up to randomness?
Oh, it’s a huge area of interest, and ongoing research. It’s hard to justify in practical terms all the resources being invested in this subject, and the only convincing argument for doing it is insatiable human curiosity about the origins of life.

The inquiry is daunting, which further attest the power of man’s drive toward discovery; the prospects for an actual explanation, a specific chemical pathway we might invest some confidence in as the history here are extremely humble. But progress continues apace on developing in abiogenesis research in discovering plausible and even probable pathways. We are unlikely to know with sufficient depth what the environmental context was to provide some selective constraints for the chemical pathway, and we are unlikely to establish the chemical pathway with enough confidence to extrapolate the environmental particulars.

Lots of good work has been done and continues in developing hypotheses that posit plausible and practical combinations, though.

I think part of tjm190’s comment may rely not on apathy – it’s a fascinating, compelling subject for a great many in the scientific community – but on a distinct lack of dissonance, dissonance many creations suspect should obtain, about the difficulty of obtaining robust explanations for process of assembly for the first living organisms. We don’t know the path taken, and we may never know with any confidence or detail, but even so, that’s an unknown that is frustrating from a curiosity perspective, but unremarkable given the context – the nature of that process and event set is such that it’s very difficult to imagine how we would expect to discover the details billions of years later. These are chemical processes that aren’t amenable to fossilization, or any kind of forensic discovery this long after, that we can think of.

Which means we’re interested (of course!), but not holding our breath, nor troubled by the lack of details. It’s expected.

-TS
 
This was the answer I was afraid of, and it is **certainly **a dodge. Science is always driven by curiosity; there is no objective motive to science. Surely you don’t think that we are equally curious about every fact in nature? No, we pick and choose. There is an obvious reason to investigate the cause of DNA, for the same reason we investigated the existence of DNA – because it helps us understand ourselves and the universe.

Can some non-ID scientist PLEASE give me a better answer, that doesn’t act as if the origin of DNA is insignificant? To repeat the question:

Should science look into the cause of the creation of DNA? Or should we just chalk it up to randomness?
I agree, we should not pick and choose- if we’re going to look at one chemical compound and try to discover its origin, then we should do so for all of them.
 
I think Buffalo started the thread, so you could ask him. But it seems that most of those who propose that complex life is a result of random mutations (darwinism), also propose that the first life itself is a result of random chemical interactions. So there is a connection.
Buffalo says ditto.
 
This was the answer I was afraid of, and it is **certainly **a dodge. Science is always driven by curiosity; there is no objective motive to science. Surely you don’t think that we are equally curious about every fact in nature? No, we pick and choose. There is an obvious reason to investigate the cause of DNA, for the same reason we investigated the existence of DNA – because it helps us understand ourselves and the universe.

Can some non-ID scientist PLEASE give me a better answer, that doesn’t act as if the origin of DNA is insignificant? To repeat the question:

Should science look into the cause of the creation of DNA? Or should we just chalk it up to randomness?
Chalk it up to “chance of the gaps”. 🙂
 
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