M
MysticMissMisty
Guest
Salvete, omnes!
Why have images/icons always been such a big deal for Catholics over all these years, so much so that there were major political/religious fights over them, particularly in the 8th/9th centuries?
I mean, really, they’re just art, right? This is not to diminish the important role that art plays in society and can play in religious life. Sure, it is beautiful. Sure, it can help to elevate the mind heavenward. Sure, it can help us more fully to relate to the Divine Mysteries, to the Saints, etc, but was it really such a big deal that it was worth fighting over? After all, the Protestants have seemed to get along just fine in their worship without recourse to images and, while it may have some effect on their worship, is that effect really significant enough that it should be made into such a big deal?
Could we not say with Paul in 1 Corinthians 8 that using or not using images, like eating or not eating meat, will not commend us to God? Can we not say that each person, whether he use images or not, is doing so ultimately to God?
Indeed, this particular issue presents one of the major stumbling blocks for Protestants to become Catholics because of their fear, even if imagined, of idolatry. Wouldn’t it ultimately have been in the 8th and 9th centuries, and, indeed, wouldn’t it be best today for purposes of Church unity, simply for those who use images either a) to give them up so that it won’t be an issue for Protestants, b) concede that images aren’t such a big deal and that you can either use them or not or c) some other solution that would bring Protestants more readily into the fold? AGain, are images really so important that Catholics would have Protestants not come into what they understand as the fullness of Truth because Protestants can’t get past the idolatry issue (again, whether real or imagined)? What if this issue for some Protestant or other is the only thing standing between them and converting to Catholicism? Wouldn’t, say, giving up images be best again for Church unity and even for the conversion of souls into fuller Truth?
Yet, images have always (and I mean no offense when I say this) been a “touchy” subject for Catholics throughout the ages. They have seemingly always been a rather big deal to them. I’m just trying to understand why this is the case and, indeed, whether it should be.
As I understand it, there have always been certain Christians who have objected to one degree or other to religious (and even secular) images/icons/art but the whole matter blew up bigtime during the 8th/9th centuries with the “iconoclast heresy”. Again I ask why this all has to be such a big deal, even to the point of calling it a “heresy”. Honestly, I just don’t understand even its being defined as such, especially if it is just about art and not about some far more important spiritual issues which could legitimately be called “heresies”. What made iconoclasm so bad that it was ultimately deemed a “heresy”? Why could there not have been (and still be) some accommodation to the (even erroneous) opinions of those who are on the non-image side of the issue?
Again, we might take the exaple of men who erroneously though that an idol was anything in the world in 1 Corinthians 8. Yes, Paul says that their consciences were “weak”; he acknowledges that they were in error. However, he seems to try to accommodate them by advising those Christians who “had knowledge” )(of the truth) to be careful about eating meat sacrificed to idols around them. Granted, thsi was primarily to prevent the weaker brother from sinning (at least as he saw it), but the other points raised in this passage are arguably relevant to our present issue under discussion. Even further, though, there may have been Christians throughout time who, because they saw others with “knowledge” or even because they felt pressured to do so, revered images with a guilty/unclean conscience (that is, even though they thought doing so was idolatrous). Should Christians who supported reverence of images have not accommodated to those who were “weaker”? What makes the issue of images/icons/art any different from that encountered by Paul with regard to the eating or not eating of meat, especially that sacrificed to idols?
I am asking all of these questions sincerely and not to antagonize in any way. I am just really confused about why images are such a big thing and why they are any different from issues like eating meat or not eating it. Both issues are arguably quite small ones, so I don’t understand why the one is treated so much differently than the other.
Gratias vobis plurimas!
P.S. If I have placed this thread in the wrong forum, please feel free to move it!
Why have images/icons always been such a big deal for Catholics over all these years, so much so that there were major political/religious fights over them, particularly in the 8th/9th centuries?
I mean, really, they’re just art, right? This is not to diminish the important role that art plays in society and can play in religious life. Sure, it is beautiful. Sure, it can help to elevate the mind heavenward. Sure, it can help us more fully to relate to the Divine Mysteries, to the Saints, etc, but was it really such a big deal that it was worth fighting over? After all, the Protestants have seemed to get along just fine in their worship without recourse to images and, while it may have some effect on their worship, is that effect really significant enough that it should be made into such a big deal?
Could we not say with Paul in 1 Corinthians 8 that using or not using images, like eating or not eating meat, will not commend us to God? Can we not say that each person, whether he use images or not, is doing so ultimately to God?
Indeed, this particular issue presents one of the major stumbling blocks for Protestants to become Catholics because of their fear, even if imagined, of idolatry. Wouldn’t it ultimately have been in the 8th and 9th centuries, and, indeed, wouldn’t it be best today for purposes of Church unity, simply for those who use images either a) to give them up so that it won’t be an issue for Protestants, b) concede that images aren’t such a big deal and that you can either use them or not or c) some other solution that would bring Protestants more readily into the fold? AGain, are images really so important that Catholics would have Protestants not come into what they understand as the fullness of Truth because Protestants can’t get past the idolatry issue (again, whether real or imagined)? What if this issue for some Protestant or other is the only thing standing between them and converting to Catholicism? Wouldn’t, say, giving up images be best again for Church unity and even for the conversion of souls into fuller Truth?
Yet, images have always (and I mean no offense when I say this) been a “touchy” subject for Catholics throughout the ages. They have seemingly always been a rather big deal to them. I’m just trying to understand why this is the case and, indeed, whether it should be.
As I understand it, there have always been certain Christians who have objected to one degree or other to religious (and even secular) images/icons/art but the whole matter blew up bigtime during the 8th/9th centuries with the “iconoclast heresy”. Again I ask why this all has to be such a big deal, even to the point of calling it a “heresy”. Honestly, I just don’t understand even its being defined as such, especially if it is just about art and not about some far more important spiritual issues which could legitimately be called “heresies”. What made iconoclasm so bad that it was ultimately deemed a “heresy”? Why could there not have been (and still be) some accommodation to the (even erroneous) opinions of those who are on the non-image side of the issue?
Again, we might take the exaple of men who erroneously though that an idol was anything in the world in 1 Corinthians 8. Yes, Paul says that their consciences were “weak”; he acknowledges that they were in error. However, he seems to try to accommodate them by advising those Christians who “had knowledge” )(of the truth) to be careful about eating meat sacrificed to idols around them. Granted, thsi was primarily to prevent the weaker brother from sinning (at least as he saw it), but the other points raised in this passage are arguably relevant to our present issue under discussion. Even further, though, there may have been Christians throughout time who, because they saw others with “knowledge” or even because they felt pressured to do so, revered images with a guilty/unclean conscience (that is, even though they thought doing so was idolatrous). Should Christians who supported reverence of images have not accommodated to those who were “weaker”? What makes the issue of images/icons/art any different from that encountered by Paul with regard to the eating or not eating of meat, especially that sacrificed to idols?
I am asking all of these questions sincerely and not to antagonize in any way. I am just really confused about why images are such a big thing and why they are any different from issues like eating meat or not eating it. Both issues are arguably quite small ones, so I don’t understand why the one is treated so much differently than the other.
Gratias vobis plurimas!
P.S. If I have placed this thread in the wrong forum, please feel free to move it!