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cath4alltime
Guest
Not quite true as has been explained earlier
Why are many protestants opposed to honoring the Blessed Virgin Mary?
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hn160
Guest
Protestants have a tendency to throw the baby out with the bath water, Lutherans had this tendency in the past because we were accused by the Calvinist of being too Catholic and the pietism influence in the Lutheran Churches was also a factor. Lutherans do honor The Blessed Virgin Mary as the Mother of God.
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KathleenGee
Guest
Last night I did some channel surfing and came to Public Broadcasting on a province in England…couldn’t hear the name too well with the accent…
It began showing the churches and then ending up at the Catholic Cathedral…and all the documents showing the names of believers and various other information…quite detailed…
It turned in a new direction when the commentator spoke of the power and corruption of Rome…and how peoples in this area wanted reform…and ended up following Wycliff and others…
Wycliff and others named our faults:…He began with the denunciation of the Eucharist…this one man considering himself the authority to dismantle the historical traditions and practices of believers…refuting transubstantian.
He went to accuse us again of the corruption of power and wealth of the Church…against the acknowledgement of the sacredness of the Cathedral and its shepherding of all its flock.
He went on to say that we tithed and people wanted to give their contributions to who they wanted to serve in the poor and not have the Church do it for them…understandable…but certainly if you have a shirt or cloak on your back or food in your pocket and somebody needs help, the Church would not be there for you to give you permission to remove your cloak or reach into your pocket…hypercriticism…
And then the other point regarding our worship of Mary.
Not true.
I am seeing more and more the misperceptions and lack of faith of those who have attended but not participated in the communion we enjoy as Catholics…there was a fellow on here who spent some time and converted from being a Baptist to a Catholic. His associations are accusing him of worshipping Mary even though he tells them emphatically he … and we…do not.
What we do enjoy is being in the Ecclesia, which is mystical…and the communion of saints. When we live in God’s will, we live in eternal time…and just our approach to faith is mystical…outwardly easily misunderstood…
But Mary has been venerated from since the beginning…
And looking at the perspective of the ‘cosmos’…she is the human point where God and Man connected…no one is like her…she is our mother…she prays for us…Mary is the greatest advocate of sinners…
And she brings to us the presence of heaven, she being the human tabernacle that carried our Lord before He was born.
People can only come to Mary in the Church when they finally come in and participate in the life of the Church among the believers…then you will find her…she in spirit is most humble and prefers to be hidden…even as we venerate her.
Mary will reveal herself to you when she thinks you are ready. Do not expect an explanation you can understand …but an actual experience of meeting her.
Once you do…you will be a great promoter of her.
It began showing the churches and then ending up at the Catholic Cathedral…and all the documents showing the names of believers and various other information…quite detailed…
It turned in a new direction when the commentator spoke of the power and corruption of Rome…and how peoples in this area wanted reform…and ended up following Wycliff and others…
Wycliff and others named our faults:…He began with the denunciation of the Eucharist…this one man considering himself the authority to dismantle the historical traditions and practices of believers…refuting transubstantian.
He went to accuse us again of the corruption of power and wealth of the Church…against the acknowledgement of the sacredness of the Cathedral and its shepherding of all its flock.
He went on to say that we tithed and people wanted to give their contributions to who they wanted to serve in the poor and not have the Church do it for them…understandable…but certainly if you have a shirt or cloak on your back or food in your pocket and somebody needs help, the Church would not be there for you to give you permission to remove your cloak or reach into your pocket…hypercriticism…
And then the other point regarding our worship of Mary.
Not true.
I am seeing more and more the misperceptions and lack of faith of those who have attended but not participated in the communion we enjoy as Catholics…there was a fellow on here who spent some time and converted from being a Baptist to a Catholic. His associations are accusing him of worshipping Mary even though he tells them emphatically he … and we…do not.
What we do enjoy is being in the Ecclesia, which is mystical…and the communion of saints. When we live in God’s will, we live in eternal time…and just our approach to faith is mystical…outwardly easily misunderstood…
But Mary has been venerated from since the beginning…
And looking at the perspective of the ‘cosmos’…she is the human point where God and Man connected…no one is like her…she is our mother…she prays for us…Mary is the greatest advocate of sinners…
And she brings to us the presence of heaven, she being the human tabernacle that carried our Lord before He was born.
People can only come to Mary in the Church when they finally come in and participate in the life of the Church among the believers…then you will find her…she in spirit is most humble and prefers to be hidden…even as we venerate her.
Mary will reveal herself to you when she thinks you are ready. Do not expect an explanation you can understand …but an actual experience of meeting her.
Once you do…you will be a great promoter of her.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Well spoken!
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Usbek_de_Perse
Guest
I would think that most thinking Protestants are not at all opposed. They may draw the line at intercession to the BVM, however. As someone who seems quite intelligent said recently somewhere, Catholics and Protestants have different understandings of the word “pray”. Catholics and like-minded Anglicans understand “pray” as asking a favor. That favor may be asked of God directly, or asked of Mary or other saints, to ask God Himself. Protestants tend to combine the meaning of “worship” and “prayer”. Catholics and Anglicans usually see a distinction in meaning between the two words.
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BListon
Guest
Some are not. Whenever I was a United Methodist, I prayed the rosary… my old Methodist Church in my town even had a small statue of the Blessed Virgin in the corner on a table.
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stevekehl
Guest
I think we would all be surprised at how many beliefs we have in common.
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BListon
Guest
I agree. Just like Pope John XXIII (good Pope John) said. " what unites us as believers in Christ, is more important than what seperates us"
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MartinJordan
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Taestron
Guest
Great post. I was wondering; do you have an answer to that question “why?” I must admit that this question bothers me. Why is it that this has been elevated to the level of dogma? I understand that Mary might be the shortest way to Christ, but the entire system of praying to the saints seems superfluous to the central claims of the Gospel. And for the life of me, I cannot figure out why certain claims about Mary have been made dogma. And so I ask “why this way of honoring Mary and not another?”
If you find a solution, would you share it with us:thumbsup: I think you are on the right track here. In Protestant Churches we also have the problem of people who do not know what the Church teaches. I went to Sunday School and we were talking about the morality of alcohol, and the fact that our manual explicitly calls us to total abstinence was not even mentioned. I think many of my friends reject Catholic veneration of Mary because they know what would happen. Through no fault of the faithful, others would take it to the point of idolatry. I know that proper veneration of the saints is a good thing; however, when I hear stories of individuals burying an icon upside-down in their garden in order to make the tomatoes grow, I know that this is the unavoidable consequence of praying to the saints. If I were to become a saint, I would not want anybody falling into idolatry because of a misunderstanding of what it means to ask for my intercession. I would rather everyone of them pray to Christ himself then even one person asking for my intercession to cross the line into idolatry.
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JRKH
Guest
Well I don’t know that I have an answer that will resolve the matter for you but I do have some answers…
Well the reason something is elevated to the level of a dogma is in order to settle some (controversial) question for the universal church. A dogmatic declaration is made because, after much debate and deliberation, and recognizing the grave responsibility attached to the authority to bind and loose whatever, “It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us (Church leadership)…”(Acts 15:28) to do so.
Well - It is and it isn’t…Prayer to the saints is permissible but is not required. Looking at the dogmas related to the intercession of the saints HERE, not the use of the phrase, “It is permissible and profitable…”, these dogmas do NOT say that it is required.
Does this make veneration of the saints and prayer to and with the saints superfluous?
I don’t think so - unless you think that asking me or any other fellow Christian to pray for and with you is superfluous. Unless you think that recognizing great holiness in another and seeking to emulate that person is superfluous.
Well - as pointed out above, this is often done in order to settle some controversial question.
Now one gets into more of the grist of the matter - which “way”…
…???This is where I get into trouble with some of my fellows here who are committed to a certain “way” and can become rather adamant in their promotion of a particular way.
Mostly when I comment on these matters it is in relation to those entering the Church who are struggling with the concepts and devotions. So I take the pains to point out that the methods are a matter of private devotion. That if they are uncomfortable with intercessory prayer they should not push it. Keep praying in the way that they are most comfortable with. the Holy Spirit will lead them where they need to be.
…Had to laugh about the “upside down icon”. I hadn’t heard that one before. Maybe I need to do that since my plants are heavy with fruit but they just don’t seem to want to ripen…
Seriously - God winks at such things because He is a loving father and recognizes the needs - sometimes “silly” needs of his small children.
That said, I don’t think that the possibility of some taking something to excess is reason to go so far the other direction that one loses the benefit. Does it make sense to become anorexic just because some people get fat?
This example is, of course, extreme but if we think of those who slip into “idolatry” as “overeating” and becoming obese, then those who vehemently oppose saintly prayer and veneration are like those who become anorexic. We know that anorexia and obesity are BOTH unhealthy. So the need is for a proper balance.
Most important there is a need to recognize that, like with food, these are things that we need - are healthy and useful and enriching - when properly and responsibly utilized.
Sorry if I have rambled off here…I hope some of this makes sense…
Peace
James
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cajunhillbilly
Guest
Good explanation JRKH.
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BListon
Guest
This guy is a Lutheran and he has an Icon of Our Lady of the Sign for his signature.( and a very nice one at that) I think that shows that Protestants CAN and DO have a special devotion to the Blessed Mother. Lutherans are about as close to the Roman Church as you can get.
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SteveLy
Guest
I think part of it is in the education and explanation of the Communion of Saints in most parts of Protestantism as well as going a little too far on the parts of some in the Catholic world.
On the positive side, Mary very well completes the concept of family. Just as many who have had poor and dysfunctional relationships with their father or brother can look to God and Christ as a perfect representation who can be relied upon, Mary can fill the role of loving Mother to those without an earthly one.
A lot of the resistance to Mary I hear is when people begin to assign redemptive characteristics to her. I heard someone on EWTN say she was a “co-redemptor” which just just causes Protestants to dismiss them as heretics and stops the listening process.
Scott Hahn put it well when he said most Protestants don’t have a theological understanding of how Catholics see Mary and most Catholics can’t comprehend how hard the concepts of praying to her is to understand for a lifelong Protestant.
On the positive side, Mary very well completes the concept of family. Just as many who have had poor and dysfunctional relationships with their father or brother can look to God and Christ as a perfect representation who can be relied upon, Mary can fill the role of loving Mother to those without an earthly one.
A lot of the resistance to Mary I hear is when people begin to assign redemptive characteristics to her. I heard someone on EWTN say she was a “co-redemptor” which just just causes Protestants to dismiss them as heretics and stops the listening process.
Scott Hahn put it well when he said most Protestants don’t have a theological understanding of how Catholics see Mary and most Catholics can’t comprehend how hard the concepts of praying to her is to understand for a lifelong Protestant.
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MaryLouItalia
Guest
I can only speak thanks to what I saw in my christian journey here in Italy.
Sometimes, devotion to Mary or the saints borders, in many cases exceeds, idolatry. There are catholics that have no problems with marian\saints dogmas\apparitions\miracles, but they don’t believe in Christ resurrection, the Eucharest (real presence) etcetera.
Sometimes the quote in Romans 1:25 …have worshipped and served the creature instead of the Creator… sadly it’s true. So, if an ‘ignorant’ catholic is evangelized about this topic (plus the ten commandments) and he\she sees a marian\saint procession he\she can think: this evangelical\protestant is right, they ‘worship’ her hem.
Now I know the real teaching of the church, and I can finally appreciate marian\saints devotions, also if there’s a little part of me that ‘fights’.
Sometimes, devotion to Mary or the saints borders, in many cases exceeds, idolatry. There are catholics that have no problems with marian\saints dogmas\apparitions\miracles, but they don’t believe in Christ resurrection, the Eucharest (real presence) etcetera.
Sometimes the quote in Romans 1:25 …have worshipped and served the creature instead of the Creator… sadly it’s true. So, if an ‘ignorant’ catholic is evangelized about this topic (plus the ten commandments) and he\she sees a marian\saint procession he\she can think: this evangelical\protestant is right, they ‘worship’ her hem.
Now I know the real teaching of the church, and I can finally appreciate marian\saints devotions, also if there’s a little part of me that ‘fights’.
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KathleenGee
Guest
Well, I grew up in an Italian immigrant neighborhood in the USA, and worked with Apulians overseas…and saw them believe so profoundly in the resurrection of Christ…and acknowledged their devotion to Mary…which was not extreme or excessive at all.
If people do not think it right to pray to Mary for her help, – who is full of grace, – then why bother asking living sinners to pray for them who have little grace.
Don’t bother then to ask others to pray for you, and do not believe either that the saints who die in the Lord enjoy His presence, and do not believe either that the saints recall their life here on earth and remember all of us who seek Him.
It is the grace of Christ Who saves us.
Again, it is their preachers who do not have the universal faith who indoctrinate them that Catholics worship Mary…or that these Christians themselves are more inclined to personal interpretation that also superimposes onto Catholicism and causes them to perceive us worshipping Mary when in fact we do not.
Mary is our companion in the walk of Christ.
Mary makes our cross light, and makes our crosses bearable. She manifests the presence of heaven to us and protects us from the snares of the enemy.
What you are seeing instead is people drawing on her grace rather than turning to depend on sinners so much of this life…albeit they be Christians. Everyone has their problems…who wants to add ours to others? So it is better to ask Mary for help and counsel who sees the Lord face to face.
If people do not think it right to pray to Mary for her help, – who is full of grace, – then why bother asking living sinners to pray for them who have little grace.
Don’t bother then to ask others to pray for you, and do not believe either that the saints who die in the Lord enjoy His presence, and do not believe either that the saints recall their life here on earth and remember all of us who seek Him.
It is the grace of Christ Who saves us.
Again, it is their preachers who do not have the universal faith who indoctrinate them that Catholics worship Mary…or that these Christians themselves are more inclined to personal interpretation that also superimposes onto Catholicism and causes them to perceive us worshipping Mary when in fact we do not.
Mary is our companion in the walk of Christ.
Mary makes our cross light, and makes our crosses bearable. She manifests the presence of heaven to us and protects us from the snares of the enemy.
What you are seeing instead is people drawing on her grace rather than turning to depend on sinners so much of this life…albeit they be Christians. Everyone has their problems…who wants to add ours to others? So it is better to ask Mary for help and counsel who sees the Lord face to face.
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MaryLouItalia
Guest
There’s a town not so far from where I live, where there’s the patron festival every year in which people go for snakes hunting, capture them (without murder them) and put them on the statue of the Saint. youtube.com/watch?v=Q7ZG2Z_N-90
Honestly, here I don’t see any God’s glorification.
Some years ago the director of Radio Maria (Italia), a priest, said: Jesus is so perfect that we can’t get closer to Him, that’s why God’s gives us Mary.
Sorry, but I find this declaration a little blasphemous. Jesus was perfect when He was human and also now that He is in heaven “sitting at God’s right hand”, but He never said: “don’t get close to me, I’m too perfect”.
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JRKH
Guest
Excellent post…
One of the things that troubles me about some who seem to want to “push” Mary is that, as a loving mother who only wishes to draw others to Christ, she doesn’t want to be pushed on people. If this or that term or prayer or devotion is a mental block for one of her children surely our Loving mother would say - then don’t do it…I can here her saying…“Just Love, my child, just Love…Go to Jesus, my child, go to Jesus.”
Things like “co-redemptor” or “mediatrix of graces” might be fine things when fully explained and understood. But they are deep, deep theological constructs on how The Father ( the source of all) and the Son (Lord of heaven and earth) goes about their business. They are quite separate from what many of us, as common folks in the pews, and in the world need to know in order to get on with building the Kingdom.
For me it is sufficient to know that all grace comes from God. If God wishes to hand it to Mary first before passing it on to me…I got no problem with that. If He wishes to send it to me directly - I got no problem with that either.
It’s like when I order something on-line - It doesn’t matter to me who all might handle the package or whether fed-ex or UPS or USPS delivers it. I know where it’s coming from and how and where I will receive it. All the rest is "middle-man stuff…
I better quit now…I’ve probably already got myself in trouble here…:nunchuk:
Peace
James
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JRKH
Guest
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JRKH
Guest
I think that you have touched on something that I have noticed too (Bolded). Thanks for mentioning it.
I’ve thought just a bit about this and came up with this:
*]The Father sent us Jesus - to be our mediator.
*]This worked fine for a time, but as heresies crept in, it became necessary to emphasize the “God” aspect of Christ over the “Man” aspect.
*]Unfortunately this necessity also tended to make Christ feel more distant…
*]To compensate for this Our Lady, her virtues, strengths and unique role was promoted.
*]Mary, being fully human though sinless was much more approachable and people could more readily “identify” with her.
*]Neither Mary or Our Lord nor the Father has any problem with this (within reasonable bounds) and each stands ready to be of help to us in whatever way they can.
Of course the above may be way off base…I have no real research to base this on…It’s just a line of thinking that has evolved in me over time…
Peace
James
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