Why are Messianic Jews not considered Christians?

[mdrummer5]

Or is it simply a matter of semantics?

I’m just curious. I’m sure that there are differences in practice but given that the biggest difference between Judaism and Christianity seems to be whether or not one recognizes Christ as the messiah I don’t understand how you could still call yourself a Jew if you believe in Christ. I’m not saying either is wrong I just don’t understand.

 

[Kaninchen]

Or is it simply a matter of semantics?

I’m just curious. I’m sure that there are differences in practice but given that the biggest difference between Judaism and Christianity seems to be whether or not one recognizes Christ as the messiah I don’t understand how you could still call yourself a Jew if you believe in Christ. I’m not saying either is wrong I just don’t understand.

Believing a man to have been God comes pretty high on the ‘differences’ list.

The only people I know who think Messianic Jews are Jews are people getting cross about Jews not accepting Christians as Jews.

 

[mackbrislawn]

Or is it simply a matter of semantics?

I’m just curious. I’m sure that there are differences in practice but given that the biggest difference between Judaism and Christianity seems to be whether or not one recognizes Christ as the messiah I don’t understand how you could still call yourself a Jew if you believe in Christ. I’m not saying either is wrong I just don’t understand.

This is a question I’ve thought about. Of course, the earliest Christians went to the synagogue and therefore still thought of themselves as Jews.

I think it also relates to the Sola Scriptura question. Can just any non-Christian pick up a Christian bible and read it and understand it in their own fashion and declare themse;ves to be Christian? By the Sola Scriptura hypothesis this would seem to be true. That seems to be an implication of the SS idea; that prior contact with a Christian missionary is not necessary, but simply reading a Gideon bible on your own is sufficient.

 

[Kaninchen]

This is a question I’ve thought about. Of course, the earliest Christians went to the synagogue and therefore still thought of themselves as Jews.

I think it also relates to the Sola Scriptura question. Can just any non-Christian pick up a Christian bible and read it and understand it in their own fashion and declare themse;ves to be Christian? By the Sola Scriptura hypothesis this would seem to be true. That seems to be an implication of the SS idea; that prior contact with a Christian missionary is not necessary, but simply reading a Gideon bible on your own is sufficient.

I think the op is talking about the specific group of evangelical Christians who call themselves ‘Messianic Jews’ and, indeed, a few of them are Jews who converted to Christianity but, largely, they’re just Christians who like a bit of Judaica in their lives and dedicate themselves to trying to convert Jews to evangelical protestantism (with a bit of Judaica thrown in so it seems less alien).

 

[mackbrislawn]

I think the op is talking about the specific group of evangelical Christians who call themselves ‘Messianic Jews’ and, indeed, a few of them are Jews who converted to Christianity but, largely, they’re just Christians who like a bit of Judaica in their lives and dedicate themselves to trying to convert Jews to evangelical protestantism (with a bit of Judaica thrown in so it seems less alien).

Not real Jews, then, but gentiles after all.

 

[tomarin]

I think the op is talking about the specific group of evangelical Christians who call themselves ‘Messianic Jews’ and, indeed, a few of them are Jews who converted to Christianity but, largely, they’re just Christians who like a bit of Judaica in their lives and dedicate themselves to trying to convert Jews to evangelical protestantism (with a bit of Judaica thrown in so it seems less alien).

That’s how I see it. Theologically and in every respect except ethnicity they are evangelical Christians. The ones I’ve seen passing out leaflets certainly seem to be ethnic Jews (though I know there’s no such thing as a single Jewish look).

I think the term “Messianic Jews” was invented as a polite way to acknowledge the way they see themselves, as followers of Christ who have not renounced their Judaism.

 

[porthos11]

Nah, they’re Evangelical Christians who adopt some Hebrew terminology and convention, and some practice (depending on the group, such as Sabbath observance and kashrut) but they’re likely baptized with water and the Trinitarian formula, they’re orthodox in their belief in the Trinity, and are well, Christians.

So much so that Jews basically don’t like them. Israel explicitly excluded them from the Law of Return on the basis that they’re actually Christians.

 

[Victorious]

I listented to a talk given by a man who calls himself a messianic Jew a few years ago. He professed a belief in Jesus as the Messiah – that is, as the fulfilment of the Scriptural promises of the Messiah – but he did not accept other essential Christian dogmas, particularly the Holy Trinity. (I recall this because I debated with him about it.) The rejection of a Trinitarian God, in my judgment, would by itself be enough to make it inaccurate to describe him as a Christian.

This was just one person, speaking for himself and not representing any particular group or sect, so I can’t say how representative he was of messianic Jews in general.

Oh, and my recollection is also that he was born and raised Jewish.

 

[Big_Dummy]

Messianic Jews are basically baptist who believes in dispensationalism and zionism pretending to be Jewish — most of their congregations are made up of gentiles.

Jews for Jesus is their flagship organization.

 

[facetious5487]

No…Jews for Jesus is something totally different.

 

[Robbinson]

A messianic jew is a jewish person (descendant of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) who believes that Jesus/Yeshua is the Messiah.

All 12 of the apostles and every author of NT scripture (except Luke) was a “messianic jew”.

By definition (some will object to the label), all messianic jews are Christians (another label for someone who believes Jesus is the Messiah).

Some messianic jews are Torah observant, some follow many of the traditions/culture of Judaism, some are indistinguishable from Gentile believers.

There is a “Hebrew Roots” movement made up largely of Gentiles who, in seeking the Jewish roots of our faith, are to various degrees Torah observant.

In fairness, the two most prominent “messianic jewish” outreach organizations (Jews for Jesus and Chosen People Ministries) are a mix of Jewish and non-Jewish (by ancestry) evanengelical christian groups.

Hebrew Catholics are Jews by ancestry who are part of the Catholic Church (like me) with varying degrees of affinity and relationship to celebration of the Jewish feasts and Jewish traditions, albeit from a new covenant perspective (while remaining faithful to the teachings of the Church).

Shalom and blessings,

Brian

 

[Victorious]

A messianic jew is a jewish person (descendant of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) who believes that Jesus/Yeshua is the Messiah.

All 12 of the apostles and every author of NT scripture (except Luke) was a “messianic jew”.

By definition (some will object to the label), all messianic jews are Christians (another label for someone who believes Jesus is the Messiah).

Some messianic jews are Torah observant, some follow many of the traditions/culture of Judaism, some are indistinguishable from Gentile believers.

There is a “Hebrew Roots” movement made up largely of Gentiles who, in seeking the Jewish roots of our faith, are to various degrees Torah observant.

In fairness, the two most prominent “messianic jewish” outreach organizations (Jews for Jesus and Chosen People Ministries) are a mix of Jewish and non-Jewish (by ancestry) evanengelical christian groups.

Hebrew Catholics are Jews by ancestry who are part of the Catholic Church (like me) with varying degrees of affinity and relationship to celebration of the Jewish feasts and Jewish traditions, albeit from a new covenant perspective (while remaining faithful to the teachings of the Church).

Shalom and blessings,

Brian

I read somewhere years ago that there was a movement to create a new rite of the Church (alongside the Latin Rite, Byzantine Rite, etc.) for converts from the Jewish faith. Do you know whether there is anything to this, and if so, what the prospects are for such a new rite to come into being?

 

[sojo]

(jumping up and down wildly waving my hands in the air) - That’s me!!! I’m Jewish. I have the blood of Abraham in my veins. My family descends from one of the tribes and then went through the diaspora.

And I found Jesus and the Church and was baptized and now I’m Catholic. But I’m still Jewish, just like Jesus, Joseph, Mary and the apostles.

I’m not a gentile. Gentiles are people with no Jewish blood by birth. Thanks be to our Savior, they, too, can be saved and be my spiritual brother/sister.

I’m a Jew that has converted to Christianity. Just like Sister Moss. Just like our Blessed Mother. I’m a “completed” Jew.

I don’t call myself a Messianic Jew because that’s pretty much a Protestant term, and it also connotes someone who is still practicing Judaism simultaneously with Christianity.

The Protestant Jews for Jesus and so forth like to try to continue many Jewish traditions alongside their Sunday worship. They throw in a few Jewish rituals here and there. But as Catholics. our very Catholic traditions and rituals are so totally Jewish in origin, that there is no reason to have to superimpose old Hebrew rituals on top of the regular Sunday worship.

The Protestants, especially the evangelical and fundamentalist sects, have removed most of the original Jewish traces from their services. But not so with the Catholics. Most converted Jews are amazed at all the original Jewish rituals and practices that remain imbedded in Catholic worship.

I am a happy, happy Catholic, but I can’t remove the Jewish blood from my veins, nor do I want to. I am happy to think that I came from one of the tribes, the chosen people, that produced Moses, Elijah, David, Jesus, Mary and Joseph. I can’t be “proud” of that - I did nothing to deserve it, But I am happy to be one of those born to the chosen people who was graced with the knowledge of the true Messiah - our Lord, Jesus Christ!

Jesus came to be the savior of the Jews and the Gentiles. I’m one of the Jews he saved. Hallelujah!

 

[seeker57]

No…Jews for Jesus is something totally different.

Not from what I read at religioustolerance.org

Jews for Jesus (JFJ):
One of the largest organizations within Messianic Judaism is Jews for Jesus. They are also one of the few Messianic groups which aggressively seeks new members from among the Jewish population.
…

Their doctrinal statement is basically indistinguishable from fundamentalist and other evangelical Christian groups. It includes the following beliefs:

in the divine inspiration and inerrancy of the Old and New Testaments, as originally written.

God the creator exists as a Trinity, is perfect, all wise, all powerful and all loving.

Jesus is the Messiah, the second person of the Trinity, was born of a virgin, lived a sinless life, died for the sins of all humanity, rose again, and is co-equal with God. Jesus will return to earth in the near future.

People are saved through a belief in Jesus as savior and an acknowledgment of their sins; not by their achievements.

Heaven is a reward for those who are saved; Hell is a place of “everlasting conscious punishment” for the vast majority of humanity, including those Jews who have not accepted Jesus as Messiah.

religioustolerance.org/mess_jud3.htm

They sound like Christians to me

Seeker

 

[InspiritCarol]

… But as Catholics. our very Catholic traditions and rituals are so totally Jewish in origin, that there is no reason to have to superimpose old Hebrew rituals on top of the regular Sunday worship.

The Protestants, especially the evangelical and fundamentalist sects, have removed most of the original Jewish traces from their services. But not so with the Catholics. Most converted Jews are amazed at all the original Jewish rituals and practices that remain imbedded in Catholic worship.

THANK you.

I grew up a Catholic in a VERY orthodox Jewish community. I got the opportunity to experience Judaism - real, honest to goodness, heartfelt G_d fearing Jewish adoration; and that was what I walked away with from every service or celebration: wow - that sure was Catholic. ~lol~

(No offence, guys, I was a kid, ya know).

Anyway, even a quick read of the book of Acts demonstrates just HOW Jewish we are. Also, reading descriptions of forms of worship throughout the “OT” shows us where all our “pomp and circumstance” REALLY originated.

SO ??? Do “Messianic Jews” think Jesus is God?
If so then, by modern definition (the brief period of “Acts” aside – before the Jerusalem Council when it was decided that Gentiles and Gentile ways were acceptable) they are “Christian” with Jewish allegiance, be it blood ties or just sympathies to cultural mores.
Even Jesus said, as reported in all the Gospels, the “Shema”(Deut 6:6, etc) is the greatest commandment. Now since it is beyond today’s Jews to accept the Trinitarian explanation (and who can blame them if they are not Spirit-moved to do so?) then one CAN not be both Christian, and a practicing “Jew” simply because, without the understanding of Trinity and man being in God’s image, then to claim Jesus as “God” seems to set up polytheism. Obviously very anti-Jewish AND yes, anti-Christian, but the Jewish people simply DON’T see it that way, it is, in fact, what sets them apart as modern “Jews”. Look at history, they took careful measure to ENSURE that NO mistake could be made wherein the line was blurred. Even to the point of throwing out books of their own history, wisdom and prophecy as evidenced by modern archeology. Look at what IS said about Jesus in the Jewish writings. There are some really good Jewish sites out there, not unlike this one, to clear up ANY misconception on the part of the Evangelicals.

Here are a couple of the more extreme, yet enlightening sites (caveat - please don’t look to them for theology - they are incorrect in many places when talking about OUR beliefs - K?):
ajewwithaview.com/ ~good stuff~
jewishanswerstochristianquestions.com/ ~yikes!~
And best of all: whatjewsbelieve.org/ (If I ever get a free month or two, I REALLY want to sit down with these guys and hash this stuff out using … well … mostly the Talmud. Still, I love their passion and conviction for G_d, and, well, for Jewishness (please respect their site - as we expect them to respect ours).

… And so… here we are.

Clear as mud? ~I hate having to reduce complex ideas into a blurb~

 

[Miriam1947]

(jumping up and down wildly waving my hands in the air) - That’s me!!! I’m Jewish. I have the blood of Abraham in my veins. My family descends from one of the tribes and then went through the diaspora.

And I found Jesus and the Church and was baptized and now I’m Catholic. But I’m still Jewish, just like Jesus, Joseph, Mary and the apostles.

I’m not a gentile. Gentiles are people with no Jewish blood by birth. Thanks be to our Savior, they, too, can be saved and be my spiritual brother/sister.

I’m a Jew that has converted to Christianity. Just like Sister Moss. Just like our Blessed Mother. I’m a “completed” Jew.

I don’t call myself a Messianic Jew because that’s pretty much a Protestant term, and it also connotes someone who is still practicing Judaism simultaneously with Christianity.

The Protestant Jews for Jesus and so forth like to try to continue many Jewish traditions alongside their Sunday worship. They throw in a few Jewish rituals here and there. But as Catholics. our very Catholic traditions and rituals are so totally Jewish in origin, that there is no reason to have to superimpose old Hebrew rituals on top of the regular Sunday worship.

The Protestants, especially the evangelical and fundamentalist sects, have removed most of the original Jewish traces from their services. But not so with the Catholics. Most converted Jews are amazed at all the original Jewish rituals and practices that remain imbedded in Catholic worship.

I am a happy, happy Catholic, but I can’t remove the Jewish blood from my veins, nor do I want to. I am happy to think that I came from one of the tribes, the chosen people, that produced Moses, Elijah, David, Jesus, Mary and Joseph. I can’t be “proud” of that - I did nothing to deserve it, But I am happy to be one of those born to the chosen people who was graced with the knowledge of the true Messiah - our Lord, Jesus Christ!

Jesus came to be the savior of the Jews and the Gentiles. I’m one of the Jews he saved. Hallelujah!

Loved this.

 

[mdrummer5]

Loved this.

I also liked sojo’s post.

I hope to be in that same position 4/2012 as I won’t be able to start RCIA until September of this year but I will be converting from Judaism to Catholicism. However I am not an ethnic Jew, mom converted from Southern Baptist before I was born.

 

[Jerusha]

Hebrew Catholics are Jews by ancestry who are part of the Catholic Church (like me) with varying degrees of affinity and relationship to celebration of the Jewish feasts and Jewish traditions, albeit from a new covenant perspective (while remaining faithful to the teachings of the Church).

It is VERY unhealthy for anyone converting to Catholicism, for example, to deny their cultural heritage in the process. The NT specifically uses the example that if a person of Jewish heritage becomes a Christian, they have the right to keep Kosher if not doing so makes them feel guilty. The same goes with people from any other cultural heritage.

No, I am not Jewish, but I identify with the Jewish experience. Oppression from Mormons made me so. :whacky:

 

[mdrummer5]

a person of Jewish heritage becomes a Christian, they have the right to keep Kosher if not doing so makes them feel guilty.

Valid point… but bacon… bacon is just so good, how could one possibly feel guilty???

Kidding aside that’s one reason I never could’ve been an orthodox Jew. I understand and respect the concept of keeping Kosher for those that do it but it just wasn’t something that I really agreed with.

 

[sojo]

I also liked sojo’s post.

I hope to be in that same position 4/2012 as I won’t be able to start RCIA until September of this year but I will be converting from Judaism to Catholicism. However I am not an ethnic Jew, mom converted from Southern Baptist before I was born.

Praise God! Welcome home!!! It just gets better and better. Well, to be honest, the RCIA experience can be exhausting - if you do the reading and pray over stuff, it can be a soul-wringing adventure. Then Easter Vigil is unbelievable, and then you might (most do) have a sort of come down period when its a good idea to keep in touch with your RCIA advisor and/or your Priest. But after that it just gets better and better.