Why are Messianic Jews not considered Christians?

[sojo]

Story time, gather in close:

When I was 12, my Grandma died. She was Jewish and a Saint. She was a single Mom as her husband died shortly after she gave birth to her third child, and then their house burnt down. So she worked 2 jobs, commuting on a subway to raise the kids, but spent all her commute time knitting afghans that she handed out for free to all the poor souls she met on the subway. She worked as a maid and a nurses aid carrying bedpans. Back breaking work. But she squirreled away enough money for wool and gave the fruits of her labors out to those more poor or hurting or distressed.

So anyway, she died age 62. The funeral was long (or maybe I was just very young??), and the crowd overflowed into the street. When we exited, the crowd was filled with Blacks, Puerto Ricans, etc. who had been gifted with a “Mitzva” (blessed work, gift) from my Grandma. We knew she was generous, but we had no idea! They all touched our arms as we walked by and murmured, “Minnie was a Saint, we are so sorry…”

Then off to the cemetery for a looooong service (or maybe I was just very young??) in the pouring rain. It was very cold. And dismally dark.

Then back over the George Washington bridge to NJ for the usual after service gathering with loved ones.

While we were doing all this Jewish funeral stuff, my Mom’s two best friends - both Catholic - had been setting out a Kosher meal, as some of my relatives did keep Kosher. That meant paper plates and new disposable serving bowls, and a dairy spread. Nothing could touch any of our non-Kosher things.

And out on the front steps was the bowl of water for a ritual hand washing to cleanse from the “unclean” time at the funeral with the open coffin and cemetery service.

It is really just a finger dipping and a murmured prayer.

Many, many, many years later I dipped my fingers in the holy water font for the first time in memory of my baptism and made the sign of the cross. And the memory of those devout Jews waiting for their turn to dip their fingers in the bowl of water on our steps… it just rushed into my head. A profound moment of connection with my ancestral roots.

 

[Miriam1947]

Wow sojo what a beautiful story. Thank you so much for sharing with us. :harp:

How did you become Catholic?

 

[chosen_people]

The concept of the Messiah ben David is a Jewish one and an integral part of Judaism. From this it may be stated that all Jews are “messianic Jews”. However, while Judaism expounds that it is easier for the Gentile than for the Jew to get into the world to come, any Jew, according to Judaism, who breaks his/her eternal covenant with God and adopts the beliefs of Christianity, is cut off forever from God and from the Jewish people (for a fuller explanation of the 14 ways a Jew may lose their share of the world to come see the Rambam (Maimonides) third perek of Hilchot Tshuvah). So, from a Jewish perspective, a Jew who states that he/she is both Jewish and a believer in the Christian messiah, is not a Jew at all.

 

[sojo]

Wow sojo what a beautiful story. Thank you so much for sharing with us. :harp:

How did you become Catholic?

Sorry to leave the thread. Our family is going through hospice with our little dog - he is like a therapy dog for us, and going through his dying is taking a toll on all of us.

OK - how did I become Catholic? Well, its a long story but the gist of it was I was in a Catholic church in Mexico (Puebla to be exact), and sitting quietly in front of a life-size statue of Mary - the Dolores pose (Our Lady of Sorrows), the kind they Mexicans dress in real clothing. I was just sort of meditating, not really praying or thinking about anything. And a woman’s voice came to me, “Come to my Son’s church through me.” Inside my head, but clear. Beautiful. So calm and quiet but purposeful.

After that I became very restless and uncomfortable unless I was reading about the Church, or the Saints, or praying… And I felt an enormous pull toward Catholic churches all over the place, and especially a pull towards the tabernacle. Didn’t even know what was in it at first - just had to sit there in front of it without a clue why. The Holy Spirit had gotten a hold of me and wouldn’t let go.

Looking back, I was being drawn to the Catholic faith for years and years - why else was a non-practicing Jewish art student totally infatuated with Church art - from the ancient to the modern, and even (and eventually most especially) primitive versions? How come I used to just enjoy studying church architecture - and not just the photos, I loved studying the b/w “blueprints.” For years, my friends thought I was a little strange for having so many crucifixes and icons and statues of saints all over my apartment. “Are you Catholic???” “No, why?” “Oh, all that… I don’t know… I just really like it.”

Being Jewish, I initially started studying Mary and the Saints. I kept my distance from Jesus. That was the big no-no. I may not have been a practicing Jew, but I had the, “Thou shalt worship one G-d… thou shalt have no other gods before me…” Calling Jesus God was just TO) blasphemous, even for a non-practicing Jew.

A few weeks after first hearing Mary, though, I was having trouble studying Mary and NOT facing this irritating “little” problem of Jesus. So I made one prayer that I don’t recommend to ANYONE. It will turn your life around and drive you crazy. Shortly after Mary spoke to me, and while I was still so confused, I prayed, “Jesus, if you are really there and you are really God and the Messiah after all, which is hard for me to believe as I’m sure as a Jew yourself you can appreciate, well, if you want me to believe in You and maybe someday love You, then you need to let me know in a big way. No still, quiet voice. I’m not very good at picking up signals. I need a billboard dropped on my head. Amen.” That’s a paraphrase, but extremely close to how I prayed that day. I’ve never been one for flowery prayers.

Warning - don’t try this at home! Not unless you are really willing to have a billboard dropped on your head. The best way I can describe my conversion experience was that I opened the door a crack, and our Lord kicked it all the way in. It was 2 years I don’t ever want to go through again. But I’m so glad I did.

My conversion story in a nutshell.

 

[CEM5]

Or is it simply a matter of semantics?

I’m just curious. I’m sure that there are differences in practice but given that the biggest difference between Judaism and Christianity seems to be whether or not one recognizes Christ as the messiah I don’t understand how you could still call yourself a Jew if you believe in Christ. I’m not saying either is wrong I just don’t understand.

A real Messianic Jew is one whose roots are Jewish (Hebrew), and they believe that Christ IS the Messiah. The other “pentecostal” ones are not - although those protestants call themselves such.

Here is some material that I have quoted for an explanation (bold and italic added):

A Messianic Jew is a Hebrew who believes and understands that Jesus is the one prophesied from Moses onward, who was to come to us to redeem us. The term Nazarene is preferred here, a sect of the Hebrew people that believe.

There are those who would consider this exclusive, while there are others that would consider this far too inclusive. Thus we must delve into the controversies. Since you’ve found this page you are no doubt inquiring into “the movement.” And if into the movement, then you’ve heard about the controversies. The most fundamental one is “Who?”

The question is necessary, and not just for any shallow or snobby reason. Dozens of so-called “Messianic synagogues” or “congregations” exist where the majority are Gentiles practicing some form of modern day jive Christianity called Pentecostalism. They preach “Jewishness,” talk Yeshua, sell Yeshua, speak of “David’s greatest son” and preach and make as a condition for acceptance into their groups “the love of the Jewish people” and the “nation of Israel”-- something that not only drives mainstream Jews crazy but it is clearly not the good news of redemption. They are, in essence, Baptist and Charismatic movements trying to attract Jews entering Messianism while at the same time supposedly “teaching Christians the roots of their faith.” However, the upshot is a massive Yiddish proverb: Az mir lotz a khazer aruf ahfen bank vil er ahfen tish.

—Meaning they have proliferated until there could be hundreds of offshoots of these “Messianic Congregations.” To the unschooled these could appear to be the whole movement. Even more, thousands of Gentiles involved therewith think they are the true Israel and the true Jews. It is estimated by some that they may make up to 80% of overall “Messianism.” Jews are confused. . . .and Israel is scared.

 ***The facts are that these “Messianic Congregations” are almost entirely made up of non-Jews, run by non-Jews, and their theology is even more non-Jewish.*** It is impossible to consider these “Messianic Jews.” Some simply prefer to call them “Messianics.” It is fairly easy to understand that to be a Jew is more than a few outside rituals with which these Pentecostals and Baptists robe themselves to impress upon themselves that they are learning the “Jewish roots” of their faith.

It would be helpful to read all of the material.

www.nabion.org/html/what_is_a_messian

blessings,
CEM

 

[Robbinson]

My conversion story in a nutshell.

Praise God Sojo! Thank you for sharing your experience - it is lovely to hear/read. Blessings to you in your walk of faith with Yeshua.

Blessings,

Brian

 

[Victorious]

My conversion story in a nutshell.

That is a beautiful story.

It puts me in mind of the fact that, whenever he was exasperated with somebody and at his wit’s end, St. Alphonsus Liguori would say: “May God make you a saint!”

Probably with the silent aside to God: “And get me out of the way while you do it!”

 

[benidict]

THANK you.

I grew up a Catholic in a VERY orthodox Jewish community. I got the opportunity to experience Judaism - real, honest to goodness, heartfelt G_d fearing Jewish adoration; and that was what I walked away with from every service or celebration: wow - that sure was Catholic. ~lol~

(No offence, guys, I was a kid, ya know).

Anyway, even a quick read of the book of Acts demonstrates just HOW Jewish we are. Also, reading descriptions of forms of worship throughout the “OT” shows us where all our “pomp and circumstance” REALLY originated.

SO ??? Do “Messianic Jews” think Jesus is God?
If so then, by modern definition (the brief period of “Acts” aside – before the Jerusalem Council when it was decided that Gentiles and Gentile ways were acceptable) they are “Christian” with Jewish allegiance, be it blood ties or just sympathies to cultural mores.
Even Jesus said, as reported in all the Gospels, the “Shema”(Deut 6:6, etc) is the greatest commandment. Now since it is beyond today’s Jews to accept the Trinitarian explanation (and who can blame them if they are not Spirit-moved to do so?) then one CAN not be both Christian, and a practicing “Jew” simply because, without the understanding of Trinity and man being in God’s image, then to claim Jesus as “God” seems to set up polytheism. Obviously very anti-Jewish AND yes, anti-Christian, but the Jewish people simply DON’T see it that way, it is, in fact, what sets them apart as modern “Jews”. Look at history, they took careful measure to ENSURE that NO mistake could be made wherein the line was blurred. Even to the point of throwing out books of their own history, wisdom and prophecy as evidenced by modern archeology. Look at what IS said about Jesus in the Jewish writings. There are some really good Jewish sites out there, not unlike this one, to clear up ANY misconception on the part of the Evangelicals.

Here are a couple of the more extreme, yet enlightening sites (caveat - please don’t look to them for theology - they are incorrect in many places when talking about OUR beliefs - K?):
ajewwithaview.com/ ~good stuff~
jewishanswerstochristianquestions.com/ ~yikes!~
And best of all: whatjewsbelieve.org/ (If I ever get a free month or two, I REALLY want to sit down with these guys and hash this stuff out using … well … mostly the Talmud. Still, I love their passion and conviction for G_d, and, well, for Jewishness (please respect their site - as we expect them to respect ours).

… And so… here we are.

Clear as mud? ~I hate having to reduce complex ideas into a blurb~

 

[zarthan]

I read somewhere years ago that there was a movement to create a new rite of the Church (alongside the Latin Rite, Byzantine Rite, etc.) for converts from the Jewish faith. Do you know whether there is anything to this, and if so, what the prospects are for such a new rite to come into being?

Elias Friedman, a Jewish convert and Carmelite monk of Mt.Carmel, Haifa, Israel was interested in seeing this develop. “Jewish Identity” is one of the late author’s books.
He composed a nine day novena to St. Theresa Benedicta of the Cross (Edith Stein, also a Jewish convert and a Carmelite nun) ending on Aug.9th (the day of her martyrdom for her faith in the concentration camps).

There is an interesting sidelight to Elias Friedman. Michael O’Brien wrote a novel, called Father Elijah a Jewish convert and Carmelite monk on Mount Carmel who was commissioned by the Pope to dissuade the anti-Christ., Michael O’Brien did not know that Father Elias lived on Mt. Carmel at the time he wrote this novel.

 

[Lisel]

I consider them christians.

 

[Kaninchen]

I consider them christians.

So do I.

There’s a serious ‘who decides?’ element to threads like these - is it up to Jews to decide who is a Jew or not, or is it up to Christians?

 

[sojo]

Just so frustrated - how do I explain this?

If you truly and carefully read the Old Testament, you would see that unlike being a Christian, being a Jew is not just about belief. Anybody, but anybody (human) can be a Christian. It is an acceptance of Jesus, a belief and a total surrendering. It is a freely given gift from God and heart-achingly beautiful - a grace, a gift beyond belief.

Being Jewish is NOT about that, though it may include that. Being Jewish is being a blood relation to a tribe that was singled out by God, Yeshua, in very ancient times. He set apart a tribe, a group of blood relatives and said they were to be “chosen”, set apart, and he worked very hard in the early days to convince them to STAY apart. Made the boys mutilate their genitals, set forth all sorts of laws and dictates. Made them stand out from their pagan neighbors like sore thumbs and got them in all sorts of hot water with the authorities.

Jews to this day to not convert, do not evangelize. Sure, the faith has always allowed for a few devout souls to join the faith, nearly entirely by intermarriage, but there are no organized classes or programs. It is not at all encouraged. But the OT does put forth a very few gentiles who embraced the faith, and it holds them to great esteem. But it is not encouraged or held as a goal, and mostly it only occurs in marriage - a sort of non-blood extension of family. Most people who convert to Judaism have to meet privately with a Rabbi for lessons. They are always told that it is not necessary to convert to marry a Jew. Jews don’t believe you have to convert to be saved.

Just like you don’t stop being Italian when you become American. Your family is all Italian, you speak Italian, you continue to celebrate Italian foods and traditions… you are through and through Italian. Your blood line most likely dates back to the Romans. You get a kick (up until the last two Popes), of being Italian like the Popes, and you understood some if not all of what the Vatican folks said of EWTN.

But you are American. You are considered an Italian American.

Well that is the same thing only much, much more important to Jews. Unless my family is lying (which they would have no reason to do), the blood of Abraham and Moses flows in my veins. I am a BLOOD relative of Jesus, Mary and Joseph - not just a spiritual relative. In a sense, all Jews are blood relatives. Like all Christians are spiritual brothers and sisters.

And if you truly understood the old testament, there are two elements most sacred beyond the name and presence of God - Blood and Breath. In Hebrew, this relates intimately and forsees the importance of the Eucharist (body and blood of Christ), and the Holy Spirit (breath and spirit are the same word in Hebrew).

The Jews are tribal people. So Jesus is my blood relative, many times removed and not at all deserved by me.

Now, it is also true that some (not all) Jewish sects have this thing akin to the Protestant shunning. My family declared my mother dead and held a funeral for her when she married a non-Jew. But you can’t take my blood relation out of my body. And many, many Rabbis today affirm this - I am a Jew, merely because my mother was one. That is the law. I may be shunned. They can declare me dead. But they can’t undo the DNA. The genetic link.

This strong tribal clinging to the genetic lineage of being of the Chosen ones (as witnessed in the OT by all those boring begats), was initiated by God. And the Jewish people have clung to it through holocaust, pogroms and banishment to the far ends of the earth. The Jewish people should NOT exist anymore - too many people have hated (and continue to hate) and have tried to eradicate them. A God-given assignment is pretty darn strong.

So THAT is why I am Catholic, Christian, on fire for the Lord, but I still remain Jewish.

 

[sojo]

All of the above rant was in answer to someone who said they couldn’t understand how come a Jew, once converted to Christianity, didn’t just stop being a Jew and became Christian.

It is not a matter of either or. It is a matter of “this and” – that is stolen shamelessly from EWTN apologetics.

 

[sojo]

Let me try one more time.

When I became a Christian, I didn’t say, “oh this is the truth and all the rest of that stuff I learned in the Torah and OT was just so much garbage… I see the truth and give up being Jewish and now I’m Catholic.”

What I said, and what my beautiful church teaches is, “ah, now my faith is completed, now everything I ever learned in the Torah and the OT has come to fruition and perfect completion…”

Hope that helps.

 

[Kaninchen]

Just so frustrated - how do I explain this?

Well, the thing is that you don’t get to decide.

I’ve never shunned a convert, I don’t think I’ve ever been unpleasant to people because they’ve converted (I’ve even had PM’s from people thanking me for not being so). On the other hand, you may be a Christian of Jewish background and descent but you’re not now a Jew (in fact your ‘being on fire’ may make you more of a Christian evangelist than anything else).

Anymore than I’m an Italian, even if I’m half Italian (and my ancestors may have lived there since the Romans), was born there and my grasp of the language is enough to get by day-to-day when we’re there. No, I’m a Brit of German/Italian descent, I grew up in the UK, I’m not an Italian.

I could move to Italy, I could become an Italian - but then I wouldn’t be a Brit.

 

[Dale_M]

There’s a serious ‘who decides?’ element to threads like these - is it up to Jews to decide who is a Jew or not, or is it up to Christians?

Oh, gosh. That is a tough question.

Perhaps we should let Prince Philip decide. He is a mountain divinity, after all, at least according to villagers on Tanna Island in Vanuatu.

 

[Kaninchen]

Oh, gosh. That is a tough question.

Perhaps we should let Prince Philip decide. He is a mountain divinity, after all, at least according to villagers on Tanna Island in Vanuatu.

Well, ‘Cargo Cult Phil’ would be one thing but “Prince Philip God of Gaffes” would be more likely. 60 years of saying the wrong thing at the wrong time (or any time for that matter).

 

[dzheremi]

From my limited experience with people calling themselves “Messianic Jews”, they’re Evangelical Protestants who like to show off how they can pronounce “Hanukkah” correctly. Meh. I find them more annoying than anything. It’s hard to take them seriously as Jews (and I am not even slightly Hebraically inclined, so I can only imagine how real Jews must see them!), and even harder to take them seriously as Christians. Much more insidious, however, is the mix of pop-Evangelicalism and phony identity politics that groups like these epitomize. That really needs to go away. It seems awfully anti-Christian to me, in light of NT passages like Galatians 3:28, 1 Corinthians 12:13, Colossians 3:11, etc.

If you want to identify as a Christian of Jewish background, then that’s one thing. That’s more of a descriptive term about your background (just as new Christians of Muslim background could be called Muslim-background Christians) than a stupid, self-aggrandizing term that satisfies neither community you are identifying with.

 

[rebecca123]

The Messianic Jews I’ve known would most definitely be considered Christians. Unless of course you believe everyone outside of the Catholic Church is a non- Christian.

 

[cooterhein]

There’s a bit over 200,000 Messianic Jews in America, of which about half are of Jewish descent.

Jews for Jesus is the most visible and aggressive American organization associated with Messianic Judaism, but it’s actually an evangelizing organization that does not create or sponsor Jewish congregations. As such, it’s outside the mainstream of the movement. There’s other organizations throughout the world that are less visible, have a different approach to evangelism, create/sponsor new congregations, and have more importance to Messianic Judaism on the whole. But Jews for Jesus happens to have the most visibility in America.

In Israel, estimates vary, but there’s probably about 15,000 Messianic Jews from a Jewish population of nearly 6 million. There, terminology like “Jewish believer in Jesus” is more synonymous with “Messianic Jew.” The ratio of Messianic Jews to the Jewish population at large is still less than the American one by a factor of (ballpark) between 5 and 10, but that gap’s been closing fast and will continue to do so. That’s due to a combination of Messianic Jews moving there and those same Messianic Jews converting Jews once they get there. These immigrants/missionaries tend to be of Jewish descent, and that has a lot to do with why they go there. Like it is for anyone of Jewish descent, really.

Messianic Judaism is religious syncretism, and it’s the only kind that’s really allowed among Evangelicals. Plenty of continuity with ancient Judaism, especially with the continuation of the same covenant relationship between God and His chosen people (with the notable addition of a new covenant, of course). Also the Tanakh (same as the Protestant OT) and a “people of the book” attitude that’s absent from Catholicism.

As an Evangelical myself, I oppose religious syncretism in all cases except this one. I don’t really want this syncretism for myself- I don’t have any personal connection to Judaism to start with- but I certainly believe they’re Christians and support what they’re doing. If I lived in Israel, it’d be a different situation. If I marry a woman who’s a Messianic Jew (which I don’t really expect to do), that’s a different situation as well. The only times I have problems is when core doctrines like the Trinity are absent. I can understand why that would happen- the Jews got along fine as God’s chosen people for thousands of years without any kind of teaching on the Trinity. It actually surprises me that doctrines like the Trinity are so rarely rejected. I haven’t looked really far into the causes and effects that go into that, though.

Anyway, Jews don’t see Messianic Jews as actual Jews. I understand why that is, and I agree that Christological doctrine has no place in the belief set of someone who wants to call herself “Jewish” with any level of orthodoxy. That doesn’t mean Jewish converts- and I do think of them as Jewish converts- have to reject Judaism, or even that they’re converts in the usual sense of the word. The word “completion” is used a lot, although it’s a bit offensive to the Jewish ear. Almost like you’re saying Judaism is insufficient. And yeah, I can see why it comes across that way. It is a different kind of conversion, though- totally foreign to Evangelical Christianity with this lone exception, although not quite as foreign to Catholicism. To put it in mildly cynical terms, it’s not like you’re rejecting one belief system and replacing it. Instead, you’re filling up what was lacking in your belief system and adopting a mode of syncretism that is perfectly acceptable to the people you’re joining but not at all acceptable to the people you’re leaving.

I still call that a conversion type of move, although it does need qualification. Take, for example, some of the stories of prominent Catholic converts from Protestantism. For some of them, “ecumenism” might as well be replaced with “syncretism.” Some (though certainly not close to all) are of the “Evangelical Catholic” variety to different degrees. I don’t think any of them are strongly affiliated with EWTN, but some of them have a similar attitude to Protestantism where they don’t reject it or replace it but they “fill up what was lacking” with sacraments, liturgy, early councils, etc. They may be explicit about maintaining an Evangelical identity from within the bounds of Catholicism, but when their stories are featured on the “Home to Rome” segment (is that what it’s called? I’m not sure), they’ll still be referred to as conversion stories. Although in that context, reverts and converts tend to fall in the same broad category. Not a perfect comparison, but I hope you see what I’m getting at- when Protestants become Catholic, most people will call them “converts” even if they got there in a way that’s very similar to how Jews become a certain kind of Evangelical.

I suppose you could be a little more specific and eschew the “convert” title in favor of something that includes some derivative of “syncretism,” but I don’t know of a term that’s commonly used. I haven’t been able to come up with one, so I have a tendency to put Messianic Jews in the “convert” category with some qualifications. The American situation makes it sort of interesting because half of those practicing start as Evangelicals and do some kind of syncretism, but I think it depends on which congregation you’re looking at, too. I don’t think most congregations are evenly split- each one tends to be more “convert-driven” or “Evangelical syncretist-driven.” It’s also a situation that’s rather unique to America, so I’m still ok with referring to Messianic Judaism as a certain kind of conversion phenomenon where it concerns the worldwide million-ish group of people. America’s the only place where they’re surrounded by so many Evangelicals, so the other 800,000 Messianic Jews in the world have a different situation going on in nearly every instance. Most other places, most Messianic Jews are converts from Judaism.