Why are Messianic Jews not considered Christians?

[sojo]

Interesting comments!

I have met several rabbis since I’ve converted. When we chatted I mentioned that my mother is Jewish, and I was raised in a quasi-luke-warm Jewish fashion, had gone to Shul with my Jewish friends, borrowed a Hebrew text book and studied Hebrew on my own for a year. Every single Rabbi exclaimed - oh! Then you are Jewish! Then I explained that I had a conversion experience and was baptized a Catholic. They repeated, “but still - your mother is Jewish - you are Jewish!”

My family on my mother’s side is all Jewish, and they all remind me that I am, too. Some are quite orthodox, keep Kosher, etc. They consider me a "non-practicing Jew who has chosen to believe the man Jesus was the Messiah.

But since Rabbis from several different forms of Judaism all agreed - not one disagreed - that I am racially Jewish if my mother is Jewish, then I guess that’s good enough for me.

And yes, Kanichen, you are right I am on fire for the Christ. Its true. I thought maybe it would die down over time - its been over 20 years now, and a lot of stuff has changed in my life. But that part of the conversion has only gotten stronger. I’m not one for confronting people like some evangelical protestant faiths… I would make a lousy LDS or JW. But when asked, I do speak from the heart.
about my faith.

 

[sojo]

Here’s a cool thing! My son has Down syndrome, and up until last year, we went to a special aquatic therapy thing in a nearby city, and it ends with a potluck support session for the moms and dads while the kids play.

While there, I learned of a Jewish temple that had a special “celebration” ministry for families with disabled children. These are kids with autism, Down syndrome, cerebral palsy, severe ADHD, seizure disorder… all kids that often had trouble in services as they didn’t understand, had trouble learning Hebrew, didn’t quite fit in the regular tiny Hebrew school. Just getting through a normal service is tough on the families and goes pretty much over the kids heads. So these “celebration” events, centered around the Jewish holidays and traditions are places where a child’s seizure or outburst or feeding tube problem are all just taken in stride - woven into the whole point of religion.

So 2 moms invited my family to participate in their “celebrations” program when they found out I was Jewish by birth. I explained that I was Catholic now, and though I’d love for my son to learn about his history in a more adapted form so he could share what I learned as a child, but that as a Catholic, I didn’t want to intrude. They assured me that they had, at times, invited Gentiles to their programs and their Rabbi was delighted to share their faith tradition with non-Jews. He considered it appropriate educational outreach - and since only families with disabilities were involved, it was still in their ministry.

But nonetheless, it was a bit uncomfortable for me so I asked them to talk to the Rabbi first. He was very understanding and told them to tell me I could call and talk with him anytime - that despite where my beliefs led me now, that I was still Jewish, as was my son, and it would be a privilege to introduce Sam to the faith of his ancestors. He also said that if I was uncomfortable, I should discuss it with my Priest, but that he had many, many Priests as friends and fellow theology students and he was sure there was no problem in our attending.

Unfortunately, it is quite a distance, and we have limited transportation - we don’t even go to these therapy sessions anymore. But the Moms have me on their mailing list for the various “celebration” events. I hoped to at least attend the Passover this year.

 

[sojo]

One more very cool thing I remember. My mother, who is Jewish, said she baptized at least 5 or 6 dying soldiers in hospital during WWII. She first tried to find a Catholic Priest or another Catholic, but at least 5 or 6 times it was desperate and the soldier begged for baptism before dying, so she said she sprinkled water and said the words of baptism as devoutly as she could.

She was very proud of that. And she was always running off to buy Mass cards for friends - the local Catholic church knew her by name. She said she loved the Catholic church but just couldn’t find it in her heart to belief Jesus was the Messiah.

I had forgotten all about that when I was terrified of telling my mother I had converted, LOL!

 

[Victorious]

I have met several rabbis since I’ve converted. When we chatted I mentioned that my mother is Jewish, and I was raised in a quasi-luke-warm Jewish fashion, had gone to Shul with my Jewish friends, borrowed a Hebrew text book and studied Hebrew on my own for a year. Every single Rabbi exclaimed - oh! Then you are Jewish! Then I explained that I had a conversion experience and was baptized a Catholic. They repeated, “but still - your mother is Jewish - you are Jewish!”

Well, in a real way, you are still Jewish. The Catholic faith is the consummation and fulfillment of the Covenant with Abraham.

 

[OliveBranch]

On the question of ‘Why aren’t Messianic Jews considered Christians’ I believe most are considered Christians by both mainstream Christianity and Judaism. Just to be fair, consider the following…

Traditional Judaism (rabbinic) teaches that Christianity is not the religion of the one, true God. From this standpoint comes the argument that one cannot both be a Jew and a Christian from some of the posters here. In the Jewish ideal, the ethnicity and religion go together; whilst in the Christian church, the ideas of ethnicity and religion can be separate. Therefore, as a Christian the Apostle Paul claims that he is (present tense) a Pharisee, and a Jew, and… a believer in Jesus, as well. Even in traditional Judaism, Rashi posited that even an “apostate Jew” from Judaism was still “a Jew.” In contrast to the statement of some of the postings in this forum, this view is held even today by modern Judaism:
data.ccarnet.org/cgi-bin/respdisp.pl?file=13&year=5753
If this is true, then a person can be a Jewish Christian, or Christian Jew, or Messianic Jew (all equivalent in the sense that Christ is the Greek version of Messiah in Hebrew, so Messianic = Christian). Of course, the Apostle Paul (rather Saul, believing in the Jewish savior of Jewish prophecies for the Jewish people) didn’t think he was converting to something different at all, right?

Messianic Jews cannot merely be labeled as “protestant evangelicals.” This is pejorative and intentionally contentious by some of the posters here, not just because this is a Catholic forum, but also because the German church which supported Nazism called itself the Evangelical Church, and so lumping ethnic Jews who choose Christianity into the same category as complicit or active Nazi supporters – as if they are traitors to the rest of the Jewish people. On the flip side, although Christians have at times been anti-semitic, this was not the original intent of the original church fathers (who were all Jewish), reference the following Internet encyclopedia article, especially beginning after Early Christianity:
newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Anti-Semitism
These are the roots of incorrect and intolerant ideas of collective guilt of Jews, which are still being addressed, on “this side of the Bible.”

There are Protestant, Catholic and Orthodox Christian ethnic Jews. There are also separate groups. I am aware of a Messianic Jewish Rabbi speaking with/at a Catholic church. I am also aware of a Messianic group researching and formalizing liturgy with the Orthodox in the Middle East, to try to get at the original, Jewish liturgy. The Messianic movement has most to do with ethnic Jews and cultural identification. That said, there exist groups which range from Orthodox Judaism in doctrine and practice (and non-trinitarian belief) to groups compatible with (and sometimes integrated into) many of the mainstream Christian varieties – the latter would be considered Christian.

Hope this helps!

 

[nordskoven]

All Catholics are Messianic Jews; although all Messianic Jews are not Catholics. There was a New Yorker who claimed to be Messiah, for example, right? When Gentiles are baptized, they are adopted, ingrafted, into the Chosen People. Jesus was Jewish because His mom was Jewish. So it is with Catholics, her “other children” who are persecuted in John’s Apocalypse chapter 12. It is commanded in the “Old Testament” and the New Covenant that we are to:
PRAY FOR THE PEACE OF JERUSALEM!

Most High, Eternal Creator, Lord of Life and Blessing, in praise and thanks we approach You. Keep us near to You alone and exile afar off from us those who chose death and cursing. Confirm us in Your peace, and most of all, grant Jeru-salem, Your holy and eternal City of Peace, Your perfect peace and protection, all for Your honor and glory. AMEN

 

[waxwing]

I know people from the Evangelical wing of Protestantism - various churches. Who now attend a Messianic Jews services, - they’re Gentiles. As to why, my only theory has been touched on from some other posts, but basically they have now have very substantial roots to draw from, although not Jewish themselves, at least they’re is some form of history they can take part in. Coming from traditional evangelicalism where history means what happened last year to what happened 100 years ago and tends to fall prey to “fads” easily this new found sense of history can be appealing as well being seen as a novelty in the beginning.

 

[BenBornAgain]

Messianic Judaism: The Solution, or More Problems?

Many believers have tried to fill in this gap by returning to the Jewish roots of their faith. They have “rediscovered” Jesus as Yeshua the Jewish Messiah, and have gone on to appreciate and to love Judaism as a key to a fuller understanding of Christianity.

Yet the Messianic movement remains largely Evangelical in its basic precepts, chiefly because it adheres to the Protestant doctrine of sola scriptura, that is, the Bible is the only accepted source of authority which each individual or group is free to interpret “as he feels led”. There is no more central authority here as there is in Evangelicalism.

In addition, although Messianic Judaism provides many enriching insights into our faith, it also raises new questions at a much faster pace than it has been able to answer old ones. Far from providing effective solutions to the problems of Evangelical Christianity, it has made the situation even more complex. We must now add to the unsolved questions of Evangelicalism the thorny issues how the Torah relates to the Gospel, what are the different roles of Jewish and Gentile believers, whether they should keep kosher or not, what is the significance of Israel in the end times and how we should reconcile this with finding justice for the Palestinians. It is now commonly asked whether the Trinity is not after all a pagan concept, whether we should worship on the Sabbath instead of on Sunday, whether we should discard the Christian feasts and return to the Jewish ones, and how we can restore the Jewishness to our worship services. Discussions around these issues are endless, and there are no signs that the parties involved are anywhere close to reaching an agreement about them.

Messianic Judaism may be an important step on the way to the truth, and indeed, it has in a certain measure satisfied the hunger of many Christians to rediscover their Jewish roots. Yet despite enlightening glimpses of revelation, Messianic Judaism has left us with even more question marks, tensions and instability than “classical” Evangelicalism. It can hardly be the perfect way, then, to finding the “peace of God which surpasses all understanding” and a satisfying point of rest to the soul. Human nature can only tolerate uncertainty for so long - eventually it demands answers, or abandons the questions altogether.

See article

 

[CopticChristian]

Or is it simply a matter of semantics?

I’m just curious. I’m sure that there are differences in practice but given that the biggest difference between Judaism and Christianity seems to be whether or not one recognizes Christ as the messiah I don’t understand how you could still call yourself a Jew if you believe in Christ. I’m not saying either is wrong I just don’t understand.

In my opinion and in my experience Messianic Jews are Protestants of a certain type. There are some that are evangelizing to inculcate everyone into their way of thinking. In many ways similar to the fundamentalists. They want to do what Paul is addressing not to do in the letter to the Romans return to the Old Covenant as part of Christianity. They you and everyone else to call Jesus Yeshua and succeed in many areas as those that know no better pray with them to Yeshua.

There are many Protestant denominations that are behind many of these ecclessial communities. I have been asked to visit and I always check the statement of faith and invesigate the history. In many cases I find that the Assembly of God is shrouded in the community and is in fact forming the groups. This is sort of behind the scenes.

This is similar to the Baptists changing their name to attract members, like Rick Warren and his saddleback Church. It is a Baptist Church by another name. This is a common practice these days for the Baptists to attract members.

You may want to spend some time looking at some of these communities and look at the statement of faith and the history of the community.

They, to me are Protestant, with a twist.

 

[Tonga]

There’s a bit over 200,000 Messianic Jews in America, of which about half are of Jewish descent.

“Jewish descent” doesn’t make them Jewish. To be a Jew, you must have a mother who, by Jewish law, is a Jew. Or have a valid conversion. Many many Messianics who claim
to be Jewish are not. Very few Jews who are Jews by Jewish law are involved with Messianics.

I’ve seen Messianics create phony Jewish relatives, decide on their own that they are Jews, decide that they can call themselves “Jews” because they have been “grafted in”…
none of which makes them Jews.

Most Messianics are wannabes who just copy Jewish observance and culture, even though most of what they are copying was not around at the time of Jesus. So claiming that they want to live like their “Jewish messiah” is a lot of garbage.

Anyway, Jews don’t see Messianic Jews as actual Jews.

If they are Jews by Jewish law, they remain a Jew even if they are involved in Christianity. Jews view Messianics as nothing more than Christianity in Jewish drag.

 

[Tonga]

What I find interesting now is that the Messianic faith-created by Christian missionaries-is now attacking Christianity.

I’ve heard so many of them say that Christianity is filled with paganism, that any Christian who does not follow Torah is guilty of being an apostate, that they can not be acceptable
to G-d unless they follow the Torah.

 

[Tonga]

From my limited experience with people calling themselves “Messianic Jews”, they’re Evangelical Protestants who like to show off how they can pronounce “Hanukkah” correctly. Meh. I find them more annoying than anything.

LOL, I agree.

It’s hard to take them seriously as Jews

Especially since the vase majority of them are gentiles.

 

[Robbinson]

LOL, I agree.

Especially since the vase majority of them are gentiles.

Funny (but not really). A messianic jew is a jewish person (descendant of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) who accepts Yeshua (Jesus) as the messiah. If they do not accept the magesterial teachings of the church - then, they would be “christians” (believers in Yeshua) of the protestant type. If they also accept the magesterial teaching of the Catholic Chuch they would be Catholic (and some, to maintain their connection to their heritage would prefer to be called Hebrew Catholic).

Gentile believers who embrace the Hebrew roots of the faith are not messianic jews or Hebrew Catholics - but are Christians who, like all believers, are grafted into the rootstock and promises to Israel.

From a rabbnic jewish perspective, some would say that a"messianic jew" is an apostate jew (but still a jew) (as they would view belief that Yeshua is the messiah as an errant belief inconistent with rabbinic judaism). Some would say that a messianic jew is not a jew at all (odd, as most would say a professing jewish atheist is still a jew??). This is an unsettled issue in Israel regarding the law of return (case history is mixed - most recently leaning towards treating messianic jews as not being jews).

Blessings,

Brian (a “Hebrew Catholic”), like Peter, Paul, Mary and the original 12 apostles.

 

[BenBornAgain]

In my experience with my friends who are Messianic Jews, it appears to me that often the sense of their identity prevails upon an actual understanding of Theology, in particular concerning the Church. In a sense it is a reaction against the bad treatment (and this is an understatement) that the Jewish people received from Christians. But, on the other hand, it may be also a attempt to reinventing the wheel, to create yet another denomination, avoiding thus to join and obey the Catholic Church, which is the continuation of Judaism after the Messiah…

 

[Zhenia]

Or is it simply a matter of semantics?

I’m just curious. I’m sure that there are differences in practice but given that the biggest difference between Judaism and Christianity seems to be whether or not one recognizes Christ as the messiah I don’t understand how you could still call yourself a Jew if you believe in Christ. I’m not saying either is wrong I just don’t understand.

They’re Christians, albeit of an evangelical protestant variety. What they are not considered (by mostly all Jews) is Jews in good standing. Many are not even Jews at all, since Jewishness is defined as having a Jewish mother, and many of them do not have that.

You can’t be a Jew by religion and a Christian; it just “ain’t happening”. Modern Judaism (which could really be termed Pharisaism, since it largely evolved as a reaction to first century Christianity and is very different from ancient, pre-Christian Judaism) is very incompatible with genuine Christianity.

Modern Jews view membership in the Jewish PEOPLE (not “race”…only Hitler called Jews a “race” and this was so he could make Germans feel more comfortable with genocide) as being determined by what ones’ mother is. This is why they will welcome Christians with Jewish mothers to their events, etc. Its their form of kiruv, or “witnessing” to get you to return to Judaism.

I had two Jewish parents, and was raised in a very Orthodox Jewish community, not Chasidic, but very close to it. I chose to become a (traditional) Roman Catholic when I was 18, and never looked back. I do not identify as a Jew because, quite frankly, I don’t like what such an identification would plant in the minds of modern people. I identify as a Christian of Jewish ancestry, which is what I am.

And please remember, to be Jewish is to be a member of a RELIGIO-NATION. Its not a “race”, it is a PEOPLE with its own distinct religion.

Imagine if the Greek people, or the German people, or the French people had their own religion. It would be like that. If a Greek person belongs to the Greek Orthodox Church, and converts to the Anglican Church, they remain Greek BY ETHNICITY, but their RELIGION changes.

 

[NetStar]

(jumping up and down wildly waving my hands in the air) - That’s me!!! I’m Jewish. I have the blood of Abraham in my veins. My family descends from one of the tribes and then went through the diaspora.

And I found Jesus and the Church and was baptized and now I’m Catholic. But I’m still Jewish, just like Jesus, Joseph, Mary and the apostles.

I’m not a gentile. Gentiles are people with no Jewish blood by birth. Thanks be to our Savior, they, too, can be saved and be my spiritual brother/sister.

I’m a Jew that has converted to Christianity. Just like Sister Moss. Just like our Blessed Mother. I’m a “completed” Jew.

I don’t call myself a Messianic Jew because that’s pretty much a Protestant term, and it also connotes someone who is still practicing Judaism simultaneously with Christianity.

The Protestant Jews for Jesus and so forth like to try to continue many Jewish traditions alongside their Sunday worship. They throw in a few Jewish rituals here and there. But as Catholics. our very Catholic traditions and rituals are so totally Jewish in origin, that there is no reason to have to superimpose old Hebrew rituals on top of the regular Sunday worship.

The Protestants, especially the evangelical and fundamentalist sects, have removed most of the original Jewish traces from their services. But not so with the Catholics. Most converted Jews are amazed at all the original Jewish rituals and practices that remain imbedded in Catholic worship.

I am a happy, happy Catholic, but I can’t remove the Jewish blood from my veins, nor do I want to. I am happy to think that I came from one of the tribes, the chosen people, that produced Moses, Elijah, David, Jesus, Mary and Joseph. I can’t be “proud” of that - I did nothing to deserve it, But I am happy to be one of those born to the chosen people who was graced with the knowledge of the true Messiah - our Lord, Jesus Christ!

Jesus came to be the savior of the Jews and the Gentiles. I’m one of the Jews he saved. Hallelujah!

What you said about the Catholic Church with so many of the Original Jewish Rituals and Practices is very true. As a Craddle Catholic believe it or not I never knew that. It took years of me being away from the Catholic Church and “Reading” many Messianic Jew books and papers to realize that the Catholic Church had all that and more. The Lord led me back home to the Catholic Church.

 

[mwok]

As a Catholic, I am honored to be in the “New Passover” instituted by Jesus Christ all the while being sustained by the “New Manna” in our “New Exodus” to the “New Promised Land”!

 

[BenBornAgain]

As a Catholic, I am honored to be in the “New Passover” instituted by Jesus Christ all the while being sustained by the “New Manna” in our “New Exodus” to the “New Promised Land”!

Amen to that!

 

[FabiusMaximus]

They’re Christians, albeit of an evangelical protestant variety. What they are not considered (by mostly all Jews) is Jews in good standing. Many are not even Jews at all, since Jewishness is defined as having a Jewish mother, and many of them do not have that.

You can’t be a Jew by religion and a Christian; it just “ain’t happening”. Modern Judaism (which could really be termed Pharisaism, since it largely evolved as a reaction to first century Christianity and is very different from ancient, pre-Christian Judaism) is very incompatible with genuine Christianity.

Modern Jews view membership in the Jewish PEOPLE (not “race”…only Hitler called Jews a “race” and this was so he could make Germans feel more comfortable with genocide) as being determined by what ones’ mother is. This is why they will welcome Christians with Jewish mothers to their events, etc. Its their form of kiruv, or “witnessing” to get you to return to Judaism.

I had two Jewish parents, and was raised in a very Orthodox Jewish community, not Chasidic, but very close to it. I chose to become a (traditional) Roman Catholic when I was 18, and never looked back. I do not identify as a Jew because, quite frankly, I don’t like what such an identification would plant in the minds of modern people. I identify as a Christian of Jewish ancestry, which is what I am.

And please remember, to be Jewish is to be a member of a RELIGIO-NATION. Its not a “race”, it is a PEOPLE with its own distinct religion.

Imagine if the Greek people, or the German people, or the French people had their own religion. It would be like that. If a Greek person belongs to the Greek Orthodox Church, and converts to the Anglican Church, they remain Greek BY ETHNICITY, but their RELIGION changes.

I think part of the issue is that when a religion becomes associated with a particular people for such a long time, separating the two becomes difficult, and for those people, emotional. Even though there are ethnic Hebrews who convert to Christianity, it’s easy to see why relatives would see it as abandoning his Jewish identity. Judaism has been so intrinsically a part of those people that separating oneself from it is like abandoning your ethnic heritage.Even atheist Jews to an extent identify themselves with the Jewish religion. I know a couple. They were circumcised, raised in the faith, and even though they are no longer a part of the religion, they still identify with it to an extent. Messianic Judaism is ostensibly an attempt to reconcile Hebrew ethnic heritage with faith in Jesus Christ. I can’t really blame them for wanting that, although some reactions to it are exaggrated. Especially in Israel. Israel has a really awful climate towards Messianic Jews, which is unacceptable.

The same would also go with Christian ethnic churches. You’re right, it’s possible for a Greek to leave the Greek Orthodox Church and become an Evangelical, or a Roman Catholic, but it’s difficult. It’s kind of like with Jews - it’s very hard to separate the two. Rmember, the Greek Ortrhodox Church is what kept Greek culture alive after Greece was conquered by the Ottoman Empire. Here where I live, all Greek cultural activities are associated directly with the Greek Orthodox Church. I’m willing to bet that most Greek-Americans, if they care at all about their heritage, will most likely have an Orthodox wedding, baptize their children in the Church, chrismate them, etc.

Italian-Americans do the same thing. The vast majority are Roman Catholics. If they’re not practicing they’ll go through all the initiating sacraments. I am not a Roman Catholic, despite being of literally generations upon generations (and I’m willing to say probably since Christianity was preached in Sicily) of Catholics. My family converted. But it’s difficult, extremely difficult to separate Catholicism and Italy. It’s almost inconceivable. Most people naturally assume I’m Catholic. Who can blame them? When they find out I’m not, they’re stunned.

That being said, it shouldn’t be sufficient to “eject” someone from their national community because of a change in faith.

 

[meltzerboy]

Funny (but not really). A messianic jew is a jewish person (descendant of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) who accepts Yeshua (Jesus) as the messiah. If they do not accept the magesterial teachings of the church - then, they would be “christians” (believers in Yeshua) of the protestant type. If they also accept the magesterial teaching of the Catholic Chuch they would be Catholic (and some, to maintain their connection to their heritage would prefer to be called Hebrew Catholic).

Gentile believers who embrace the Hebrew roots of the faith are not messianic jews or Hebrew Catholics - but are Christians who, like all believers, are grafted into the rootstock and promises to Israel.

From a rabbnic jewish perspective, some would say that a"messianic jew" is an apostate jew (but still a jew) (as they would view belief that Yeshua is the messiah as an errant belief inconistent with rabbinic judaism). Some would say that a messianic jew is not a jew at all (odd, as most would say a professing jewish atheist is still a jew??). This is an unsettled issue in Israel regarding the law of return (case history is mixed - most recently leaning towards treating messianic jews as not being jews).

Blessings,

Brian (a “Hebrew Catholic”), like Peter, Paul, Mary and the original 12 apostles.

Brian, as you may know, a sizable number–but not all–of Torah (Orthodox) Jews consider Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist, and Humanistic Jews heretics, or rather their leaders (“rabbis”) heretics. Others regard these Jews as merely less Orthodox. Even among the so-called Orthodox, there are variations–Haredi Litvish, Chasidic (further subdivided), Modern, Karaite; I’ve even heard some describe themselves as Conservadox. Conservative Judaism is not totally uniform, and neither is Reform Judaism. Moreover, throughout its history, the interpretations of Torah have been debated among Jews. In ancient times, the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Essenes had conflicting beliefs regarding basic doctrines. Given this history of disagreement, it is not surprising that Messianic Judaism (itself not in complete accord) should be accepted by some other Jews (not many, however, even among the less Orthodox), while rejected by most. Secular (Cultural) Jews, including agnostics and atheists, are somewhat more readily accepted even by some Orthodox since, at least, they did not convert to another religion. Some of the Orthodox may regard them as being in a temporary state of heresy and doubt–similar to Reform Jews–and have hope they will return to the fold. This is different from Messianic Jews (whether Hebrew Catholics or Protestant Evangelicals in orientation), who, in the eyes of more mainstream Jews, appear to have crossed over into another religious teaching. This is not to say atheists are viewed so kindly either by the more Orthodox.