Why are Mormon baptisms invalid?

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One more thing, I don’t think the Catholic Church has ever said Mormon baptisms are NOT valid. I think the point is that there is enough of a difference in beliefs to QUESTION the validity. When I became Catholic I received a “conditional” baptism on the chance my Mormon baptism was not valid. Baptism isn’t something you want to be unsure of.
 
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Tmaque:
Are you saying that all you need is the proper verbage to have a valid baptism? So if I’m baptizing and I believe that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are really Larry, Moe and Curly or the Three Little Pigs the baptism is still valid?
Verbage? What are you asking? I cannot find the word “verbage” in the dictionary.

God has never been called Larry, Moe, Curly, or the Three Little Pigs. I do not understand this second question of yours either. Are you asking whether you must call God by one of His titles in order to be able to perform valid baptism? I have told you that proper authority is needed to perform a valid baptism. What does this have to do with verbage, or what name you use when you refer to God? Please explain your questions.
 
Any person, any of any faith, non religion, any, can baptize another person. There must be water and the right words, “I baptize you in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit (Ghost)”

That being written, it is not the norm for anyone to baptize another person and is done only in cases of extreme urgency, as in a baby in the hospital where no chaplain is available and the baby is close to death upon birth, or at an accident scene where someone asks to be baptized.

I do not know what words the LDS people use to baptize their people. If they do not baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, then there baptisms are not valid Christian baptisms.
 
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Tmaque:
I didn’t say you recognize anything. I said “It’s ironic that Rod of Iron takes offense at the Catholic Church for not recognizing Mormon baptisms but is perfectly fine with the LDS doctrine of rejecting baptisms of any religion but their own.”

So my question to you is why aren’t you criticizing Mormons for not recognizing the baptisms of ANY church but their own? After all, you’re criticizing Catholics for not recognizing Mormon baptisms in particular.
In this thread, why would I criticize Mormons for not recognizing the baptisms of other churches? That is not the topic of this thread.

It’s not the Mormons that are questioning whether their baptisms are valid. Rather, it is the Catholics that are questioning those baptisms. Therefore, it would be on topic to discuss what is required for a baptism to be acceptable to God. It does not matter whether the LDS church or the Catholic church believes a particular baptism is valid. The only thing that matters is if God accepts a baptism as being valid. You may notice that the title of this thread is not, “Why doesn’t the Catholic church recognize the validity of Mormon baptisms?” According to the title of this thread, the discussion is not just limited to what Catholics believe about Mormon baptisms.

If you want to discuss why Mormons will not accept any baptisms but those done by the LDS church, you might want to start a separate thread to address that question.
 
rod of iron:
I don’t see what the problem is here. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three titles that the one being we know as God has been called. They are three titles for one being, one person.
I don’t think that the commonly accepted understanding of the Trinity is as you state it here. God, Jesus and the Holy Sprit are three *distinct * persons that are each the one God. The name Father Son and Holy Spriit are not simply “titles” for the same single person, although I think it is correct to say that they are all the name of God.

If the LDS church does not have the same understanding of the Trinity as most other Christian faiths (Catholicism included), then I think it is reasonable to conclude that the validity of an LDS baptism is at best questionable.
 
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chimakuni:
Any person, any of any faith, non religion, any, can baptize another person. There must be water and the right words, “I baptize you in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit (Ghost)”
In my church, when we baptize, we use the following words, as are found in the Book of Mormon:

“Having authority given me of Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.”
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chimakuni:
That being written, it is not the norm for anyone to baptize another person and is done only in cases of extreme urgency, as in a baby in the hospital where no chaplain is available and the baby is close to death upon birth, or at an accident scene where someone asks to be baptized.
Why would a baby in such a situation need to be baptized? Do you believe if this baby is not baptized before death, God will send that baby to hell? If you do, what type of God do you worship?
 
Robert in SD:
I don’t think that the commonly accepted understanding of the Trinity is as you state it here. God, Jesus and the Holy Sprit are three *distinct * persons that are each the one God. The name Father Son and Holy Spriit are not simply “titles” for the same single person, although I think it is correct to say that they are all the name of God.
I don’t quite understand your understanding of God. You claim that there are three persons, yet all three are God. Do they take turns being God? The Bible does not refer to God as being three persons. How can God be three distinct persons? What type of distinction are you referring to? The Mormons make a degree of distinction where the three are actually three separate beings. What level of distinction do you make? What makes these three persons distinct?
 
First you claim this:
rod of iron:
Who said that I recognize LDS baptisms? I am not LDS. Why would I recognize the baptism of a church that I do not believe has authority from God?
then you claim this:
rod of iron:
In my church, when we baptize, we use the following words, as are found in the Book of Mormon:
Is there another religion that uses the Book of Mormon other than LDS or are you being untruthful?
rod of iron:
Verbage? What are you asking? I cannot find the word “verbage” in the dictionary.
It’s a very common word, I’m suprised you didn’t recognize it, even if it was spelled wrong. Try looking under the correct spelling of “verbiage”. Or you can just look here if: m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=verbiage
 
rod of iron:
Verbage? What are you asking? I cannot find the word “verbage” in the dictionary.

God has never been called Larry, Moe, Curly, or the Three Little Pigs. I do not understand this second question of yours either. Are you asking whether you must call God by one of His titles in order to be able to perform valid baptism? I have told you that proper authority is needed to perform a valid baptism. What does this have to do with verbage, or what name you use when you refer to God? Please explain your questions.
My point is simply “Father, Son and Holy Spirit” mean different things to a Mormon than they do to a Catholic. Maybe you think that it’s not important. I do. I think that the person baptizing must have a proper understanding of who and what the Trinity is. As far as authority goes, where does it say in the Bible that a person must have priesthood authority to baptize?
 
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Vitus:
First you claim this:

then you claim this:

Is there another religion that uses the Book of Mormon other than LDS or are you being untruthful?

It’s a very common word, I’m suprised you didn’t recognize it, even if it was spelled wrong. Try looking under the correct spelling of “verbiage”. Or you can just look here if: m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=verbiage
Vitus…my bad…thanks for the correction.

My guess Rod Of Iron belongs to one of the break-off groups of the LDS Church. Or he may belong to the reorganized church. In any case if he believes the BOM is inspired he can be commonly called a Mormon as far as I’m concerned.
 
rod of iron:
I don’t quite understand your understanding of God. You claim that there are three persons, yet all three are God. Do they take turns being God? The Bible does not refer to God as being three persons. How can God be three distinct persons? What type of distinction are you referring to? The Mormons make a degree of distinction where the three are actually three separate beings. What level of distinction do you make? What makes these three persons distinct?
My apologies if I am not clear. Perhaps the Catechism of the Catholic Church is more clear:

Now this is the Catholic Faith: We worship one God in the Trinity and the Trinity in Unity, without either confusing the persons or dividing the substance; for the person of the Father is one, the Son’s is another, and the Holy Spirit’s another; but the Godhead of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty coeternal. (Athanasian Creed) CCC 266

It is an exercise in futility for the human mind to try to fully comprehend the Trinity. But it is clear that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are separate persons who are also the one eternally existing God. They do not take turns being God. They are not multiple gods. And the Bible does clearly refer to three separate and distinct persons although - concededly - the Bible does not use the word Trinity to describe them.

As I understand it, the LDS church (and other mormons) believe that Jesus is a spirit child created by God and is therefore not co-equal in His divine nature. This misunderstanding (called subordinationism) was rejected long ago by the early Church. (See CCC 242 and 2789)
 
Robert in SD:
My apologies if I am not clear. Perhaps the Catechism of the Catholic Church is more clear:

Now this is the Catholic Faith: We worship one God in the Trinity and the Trinity in Unity, without either confusing the persons or dividing the substance; for the person of the Father is one, the Son’s is another, and the Holy Spirit’s another; but the Godhead of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty coeternal. (Athanasian Creed) CCC 266

It is an exercise in futility for the human mind to try to fully comprehend the Trinity.
But if you cannot understand it, how do you know it is true? By claiming that this Trinity cannot fully be comprehended by the human mind, you are just hanging the concept upon ignorance. Mormons can do the very same thing with their beliefs. Since the Bible does directly say that “baptism for the dead” is not of God, the Mormons can simply say that the human mind cannot fully comprehend it at this time, and thus they can call it a mystery. Claiming ignorance of something, even in part, is not a very strong argument to support your view of it.
Robert in SD:
But it is clear that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are separate persons who are also the one eternally existing God.
Clear to whom? What makes it so clear? The Bible does not directly say that the Godhead consists of three persons that are all God. Are you basing your argument on the fact that there are three names given, namely the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit? Why does this have to show that there are three distinct persons? Why can’t these three names be references for one God who is one person? Where in the Bible does it make clear that there are definitely three distinct persons?
Robert in SD:
They do not take turns being God. They are not multiple gods.
I was just trying to make sense out of what you were saying.
Robert in SD:
And the Bible does clearly refer to three separate and distinct persons although - concededly - the Bible does not use the word Trinity to describe them.
Again, I ask – where?
 
rod of iron:
In my church, when we baptize, we use the following words, as are found in the Book of Mormon:

“Having authority given me of Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.”

Why would a baby in such a situation need to be baptized? Do you believe if this baby is not baptized before death, God will send that baby to hell? If you do, what type of God do you worship?
Oh my gosh!!! I cannot believe you would even ask that. I worship God, the Triune God who is merciful, just, loving and kind. No, God does not send anyone to hell…we do that all on our own, thank you very much! We are all born with the stain of original sin. Baptism erases that stain and therefore we are cleansed again. When a baby is born and is in danger of death, we baptize them so they will have the stain of original sin removed. What God does with them is God’s decision. Just as God will judge any one who comes before Him.

The way that you baptize with your words seems to be in line with God’s teachings…but I know that the LDS church does not worship a Triune God, so I reckon that those words are baptizing in one God, one Jesus and one Holy Spirit, which are three separate entities. If that is the intent, then the baptisms are not the same…although, with baptism, God does the actions, not us. It is God who baptizes, we are simply the conduits.

Hope that makes sense. God Bless You.
 
Rod Of Iron,

We Catholic Christians believe that there is enough difference in beliefs between the LDS and Catholic churches regarding the Trinity or Godhead to declare that we cannot be sure if the LDS church performs valid baptisms. Pretty simple concept. In short, we believe they may be invalid as far as we can tell. As far as you should be concerned the Catholic church can decide that baptisms need to be done while standing on one leg with a purple hat on singing “The Itsy Bitsy Spider” if it wants to. I guess the short answer is: Mormon baptisms are invalid 'cause we said so!" That should be enough for you. If you want to argue against a particular doctrine in and of itself then do so in another thread. If you want to simply argue against the Trinity start another thread on THAT subject.
 
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chimakuni:
We are all born with the stain of original sin.
Where in the Bible does it state that we are born with this stain of original sin?
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chimakuni:
Baptism erases that stain and therefore we are cleansed again.
Where does the Bible make this statement about the role of baptism?
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chimakuni:
When a baby is born and is in danger of death, we baptize them so they will have the stain of original sin removed.
So, you are implying that if the baby dies before being baptized, this original sin will not have been removed and the baby dies with the stain still upon him or her.
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chimakuni:
What God does with them is God’s decision. Just as God will judge any one who comes before Him.
Where do you believe God sends humans who die with this stain still with them? Do you believe that they will go to heaven to be with God while bearing this stain?
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chimakuni:
The way that you baptize with your words seems to be in line with God’s teachings…but I know that the LDS church does not worship a Triune God, so I reckon that those words are baptizing in one God, one Jesus and one Holy Spirit, which are three separate entities.
Perhaps the LDS do baptize with the belief that the Godhead consists of three separate entities. But the matter of baptism still comes down to one thing: whether the one performing the baptism is authorized by God to baptize.

In my church, we do not believe that God consists of three separate entities. This is why we baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, not the names.
 
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Tmaque:
As far as you should be concerned the Catholic church can decide that baptisms need to be done while standing on one leg with a purple hat on singing “The Itsy Bitsy Spider” if it wants to.
So, what you are saying is that the Catholic church makes the rules and requirements for baptism, rather than God. God has to accept the baptisms that the Catholic church decides are properly performed. This is one thing that makes me extremely wary about the Catholic church.
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Tmaque:
I guess the short answer is: Mormon baptisms are invalid 'cause we said so!" That should be enough for you.
Again, you show me that the validity of a baptism is decided by the Catholic church, rather than God. When did the Catholic church become more powerful than God? When did the Catholic church usurp the authority of the Almighty God?
 
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Tmaque:
My guess Rod Of Iron belongs to one of the break-off groups of the LDS Church. Or he may belong to the reorganized church. In any case if he believes the BOM is inspired he can be commonly called a Mormon as far as I’m concerned.
He’s in a cult OF a cult? Well then, that explains an awful lot.
 
He sort of explained what he is in another thread. Apparently he left the Refomed Church of Jesus Christ of LaterDay Saints (this is a split from when Brigham Young led the rest of the Mormons to Utah) when that sect ordained its first woman priest…

As to if he is a church of one or belongs to a formal group I do not think we have gotten a clear answer.

-D
 
rod of iron:
So, what you are saying is that the Catholic church makes the rules and requirements for baptism, rather than God. God has to accept the baptisms that the Catholic church decides are properly performed. This is one thing that makes me extremely wary about the Catholic church.

Again, you show me that the validity of a baptism is decided by the Catholic church, rather than God. When did the Catholic church become more powerful than God? When did the Catholic church usurp the authority of the Almighty God?
----SIGH----

you missed my point entirely…
 
rod of iron:
Perhaps the LDS do baptize with the belief that the Godhead consists of three separate entities. But the matter of baptism still comes down to one thing: whether the one performing the baptism is authorized by God to baptize.

].
Rod Of Iron,

If you want to debate authority we can do that in another thread.
 
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