Why are muslims so violent?

[Booklover]

I would say that you hold that it is a faith that does not allow for the killing of innocents and that it allows for freedom of religion. I would say that you hold that when it does allow for violence, it does so on a very limited scale and under certain cicumstances. As such, you would see it as a peaceful religion with jihad understood more as the innner struggle against sin.

Is that off?

The question is whether the unbelievers are considered “innocent” in Islam.

Vickie

 

[ralphinal]

The question is whether the unbelievers are considered “innocent” in Islam.

Vickie

Separate issue and not related to what I think Sister Amy beleives.

 

[Booklover]

Separate issue and not related to what I think Sister Amy beleives.

'It is not a separate issue. We are discussing violence in Islam, correct?

Vickie

 

[joe_clark]

Where do I start here? So many things to say and not enough space to write?

First: All Muslims are not born violent. I wonder, does anyone here who claims to love Jesus really know him? Yikes!

People/human beings that are raised in the Muslim faith are all not raised violent. This is a propaganda perception that has been used before. You need an enemy and can’t find one, hey then let’s create one. Hitler was good at this. Never again yea right? Short memories around here.

This was a Bushy idea used in the war. There were terrorist that claimed to love Alla and kill infidels, therefore ALL MUSLIMS ARE TERRORRIST. Bush jumped right on this, used it to assist in the dehumanizing and WALLA Abu Ghraib. A little torture here a little torture there, hey who cares, they are all terrorrist. This made it easy for American soldiers to be convicted of killing, torturing, and a new one raping.

Please read history books. They tend to keep people from taking the same wrong miserable path. In WWII on the movie reels all Japanese people wore coke bottle glasses and had buck teeth. I though people were more educated now, but I see we need additional work. I believe Americans should never become the people that they are fighting against.

When it comes to the Koran, The Bible, scrolls and most text have angry threats of murder and retrobution/ rath, stoning burnings. Salem witch trials? Spanish inquisition? It is text written hundreds of years ago and it’s meaning today MUST be taken into context and common sense. Can a man today have his wife stoned to death because the bible said so and because he is religious avoid the laws of our land? The answer is NO!.

I leave you with this and I’m sure it was seen before. Written by a pastor. What Martin Niemöller said appears in the Congressional Record, 14, October 1968, page 31636, as:

When Hitler attacked the Jews I was not a Jew, therefore I was not concerned. And when Hitler attacked the Catholics, I was not a Catholic, and therefore, I was not concerned. And when Hitler attacked the unions and the industrialists, I was not a member of the unions and I was not concerned. Then Hitler attacked me and the Protestant church — and there was nobody left to be concerned.

There are many variations of this, but it is my hope you get the meaning. I would rather give my life for and on behalf of my country and our people to promote peace, than to first pick up a sword.

 

[Sister_Amy]

I would say that you hold that it is a faith that does not allow for the killing of innocents and that it allows for freedom of religion. I would say that you hold that when it does allow for violence, it does so on a very limited scale and under certain cicumstances. As such, you would see it as a peaceful religion with jihad understood more as the innner struggle against sin.

Is that off?

Nah, that’s pretty close. Just to clarify, jihad certainly can mean fighting, i.e., there is a physical jihad. But jihad isn’t only physical. With that small correction, you could say that pretty much sums up my view.

 

[Sister_Amy]

The question is whether the unbelievers are considered “innocent” in Islam.

Vickie

Being innocent has nothing to do with a person’s faith. Someone who isn’t fighting = innocent.

 

[pismopal]

Sounds like an NBC reporter interviewing Obama during the presidential campaign.

 

[tomarin]

Do I really say that Islam is a religion of peace?

This peace business is interesting. I always thought “islam” meant submission – although the root in arabic is the same as the word for peace, salaam.

Neither is Christianity a religion of peace. Jesus came famously “not to bring a peace but a sword” (Matthew 10:34). European Christians launched a number of wars in the Middle East in the name of religion and we also persecuted heretical Christian movements who refused to obey the Catholic Church’s teachings. Once the Protestant Reformation opened a permanent fissure within western Christianity there were numerous wars between Catholic and Protestant princes.

Early Islamic history is very violent, as the statelet its founder started had to fight wars to survive and expand. Once politically unified, the Arabs expanded aggressively and conquered neighboring countries, some of them with a long civilized past such as Persia.

I disagree with most of the Christian posters here that the people they conquered were forced to convert by the sword. That may be true if they were pagans and idolators, but if they were “people of the Book” i.e. Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians, etc. they were allowed to keep their religion provided they pay a yearly (I think) tax. This provided an incentive to convert, but fell short of outright coercion. In fact I’d say it appears fairly enlightened by the standards of the time – as does the treatment of religious minorities within Islamic empires. Islam spread in southeast Asia as seagoing merchants found it an expedient way of ensuring contracts with business partners.

However it does seem that Islam today has become more exclusivist for some reason (related to modern nationalism perhaps?) and sadly, many islamic countries do not permit freedom of religion. That I think will get worse before it gets better.

 

[Sister_Amy]

The words “Islam” and “salaam” come from the same root, just like “shalom” in Hebrew.

The word means “peace,” but not in the sense the opposite of war, not exactly. This kind of “peace” is wholeness. When a person is sick, he is not in a state of peace/salaam/shalom, because maybe his head hurts or his stomach hurts. But when he is well, then every part of the body is functioning properly, and he is essentially “whole” or at peace.

 

[R_not]

No I don’t really have an issue with your Iraq assessment. My question was to some extent rhetorical, and your answers (because the complete answer is definitely multi-faceted) don’t need to be debated.

What I was thinking at the time was rather the claim given by American government (in particular the Bush White House) as to why the USA needed to invade Iraq in the first place. We know it to be a sham (WMDs) however the principle was sold to the American public by painting the invasion as a means of self-defense. The war in Afghanistan is painted as retaliation.

But Afghanistan itself did not attack the USA, nor the Afghani women and children who are the victims of attacks there. And Iraq did not attack the USA. But in order to “promote freedom” and for “national security” the USA has been responsible for incredible amounts of violence in these two countries. Leaving Afghanistan aside, and just looking at Iraq, there are human rights violations and there are other violations of international law–that’s not “anti-war propaganda,” it’s true.

Does it make Americans violent?

I don’t think it does, personally. Let me say that upfront, I don’t think it does. What it shows though is that Americans see violence (by which I mean war in general, and not war crimes) as an acceptable solution to the problem of their defense. They see violence as an acceptable form of retaliation in Afghanistan.

Are they violent?

So I think it is pretty audacious for anyone to claim that Muslims are violent when they look at things much the same way. When they see themselves attacked, shouldn’t they have the right to respond? When they are oppressed, shouldn’t they be able to revolt? And yet people claim that Muslims are violent…

I certainly don’t support the individual sneak attacks and terrorism, not from Muslims or anyone.

What I think we need to see is that Muslims are people, and they respond to situations much like other people.

The only difference on this point between Americans and Muslims is not so much religious. Americans would (and do) respond the same way Muslims would, only while Muslims have military response justified as part of their complete religion/way of life, Americans don’t accept it as part of their spiritual lives, only part of their secular lives.

I wonder how you would have felt living under the Taliban or Saddam. hhhmmmm, you certainly wouldn’t have had your education under those two regimes, you would be considered property, if you didn’t wear your tent in 120+ weather you would have been shot, acid thrown in your face, set afire. And then if you lived you can’t go to a doctor because #1. if a woman can not go to school how can she become a doctor because, #2 they forbade muslim women to go to male doctors!

I did not put the pic on this forum - you can see it for yourself here.

That poor soul in the picture had 5 kids. No one really knows the transgression that she committed.

**"I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-Fire were women…[because] they are ungrateful to their husbands and they are deficient in intelligence. " (The Prophet Muhammad) Sahih Bukhari V 2, B 24, N 541 **

Everytime I go to faithfreedom.org I see that pic of that poor soul. It makes me sick. It makes me sick to know that muslim women here continually DO NOTHING to help stop that and instead bash our President because now women go to school in not only Afghanistan, but also Iraq. And all with the help of the left in our nation - they denigrate our President for such as this.

The Taliban is making a comeback and what happens? The Taliban tries to make a war between Pakistan and India so as to divert the attention of the troops off of them so they can fight. And what do we hear from women, and others, such as you? waaaa, you are killing muslims, waaaaa When in fact it is muslims that have slaughtered more muslims than any other group on this globe.

And those big, brave muslim males - they hide behind women and children and when they get attacked - after they have attacked others - they use those children’s bodies they hide behind as propaganda that our left uses to help bash our President. But, the women are not innocent because they allow it to happen. Their silence, their acceptance - especially in our countries of the West is very telling.

With silence is acceptance and the enablement of the violence. Because we have also found out that the silence is not really that silent - because they tell us deceptions about islam and funnel their money to the jihadists. Why? Because a guy in the 7th century told them to do so.

And yes, not only was Al Qaeda in Iraq in 1995, but Saddam was complicent in many of the bombings against us.

The Secret Relationship between Saddam and al Qaida

 

[R_not]

The words “Islam” and “salaam” come from the same root, just like “shalom” in Hebrew.

The word means “peace,” but not in the sense the opposite of war, not exactly. This kind of “peace” is wholeness. When a person is sick, he is not in a state of peace/salaam/shalom, because maybe his head hurts or his stomach hurts. But when he is well, then every part of the body is functioning properly, and he is essentially “whole” or at peace.

islam means submission. end of your spin on this. We have heard your line before. And islam wants EVERYONE to submit and be subjugated like the dhimmi of the Middle East who are mostly the victims of human rights abuses, besides muslims women.

 

[tomarin]

islam means submission. end of your spin on this. We have heard your line before.

So you know better than a practicing muslim what Islam “means,” eh? How absurd.

How would you feel if a Protestant told you in no uncertain terms that Catholics worship Mary, and when you protested told you to stop spinning the truth?

 

[R_not]

So you know better than a practicing muslim what Islam “means,” eh? How absurd.

How would you feel if a Protestant told you in no uncertain terms that Catholics worship Mary, and when you protested told you to stop spinning the truth?

They already have - we get it from the Protestants (certain ones - not all) quite often. I have gotten it in my personal life.

The difference being that islam means submission. We do not worship Mary.

submission - source, bible.ca

submission - source answers.com

submission - source, islamunveiled

here are some quotes from notable clerics and leaders of organizations on our own lands, and make sure to watch this video, ‘moderate’ Sheik yusuf Al-Qaradawi preaching jihad in America (and it ain’t that ‘inner struggle’ kind!)

Yousef Khattab, supporter
-‘islam will dominate, this is what it will be.’
-‘We want to see sharia here and it will be. The flag of , “there is no god other than allah, muhammed is the messenger of god”, will be (god willing) on the White House, if thats where we choose it to be. It just takes time,
the American people are waking up now.’
-‘There is no compulsion in islam, that means, we cannot force it on you, but we will force islamic (sharia), god willing.’

Abu Mujahid, spokesperson islamic Thinkers Society (ITS)
‘allah does say that the whole world will eventually be under his rule. The rule will come down to where everyone obeys the laws of god (sharia), as simple as that.’

Abu Jahya al-Libi, Al Qaeda leader
‘According to our belief, the whole world must be under the rule of islam without exception, even a single grain of soil.’

Dr. Zakir Naik
‘In some islamic countries, eg: saudi arabia, etc propogation of other religions is prohibited. Even construction of any place of worship is also prohibited. in koran 3:85, it is mentioned that allah will never accept any religion other than islam therefore knowing that islam is the only true religion we do not allow propogation of any other religion.’

Abdul Alim Musa, imam Wash DC
-‘islam is coming to America, not through violence, it is coming to America the same way Christianity came to Rome!’
-‘allah says that islam will rise to its proper position in the world, whether these polytheists, whether these hypocrits, whether these criminals, whether these oppressors. All of them, whether they get together, still islam will reign supreme whether they like it or not.’

there ain’t nothing in any of these guys, or the koran, about love or peace with us. Could it be that this is why there is no peace with Israel? They are not submitting or dying or converting - could be the reason why…

 

[Sister_Amy]

The word “Salaam” means peace, and I explained the meaning of the word “salaam.”

Islam comes from the same root–it doesn’t have the same meaning exactly. I wasn’t trying to imply that it does. Nor was I “spinning” anything.

Islam does mean submission–submission to God, and a Muslim is a person who submits to God. Submission implies obedience and surrender–both of which are willful and cannot be compelled or coerced.

Islam literally means submission to God in order to obtain the sense of wholeness (i.e., peace) which I described in a previous post.

 

[Booklover]

This peace business is interesting. I always thought “islam” meant submission – although the root in arabic is the same as the word for peace, salaam.

Neither is Christianity a religion of peace. Jesus came famously “not to bring a peace but a sword” (Matthew 10:34). European Christians launched a number of wars in the Middle East in the name of religion and we also persecuted heretical Christian movements who refused to obey the Catholic Church’s teachings. Once the Protestant Reformation opened a permanent fissure within western Christianity there were numerous wars between Catholic and Protestant princes.

Early Islamic history is very violent, as the statelet its founder started had to fight wars to survive and expand. Once politically unified, the Arabs expanded aggressively and conquered neighboring countries, some of them with a long civilized past such as Persia.

I disagree with most of the Christian posters here that the people they conquered were forced to convert by the sword. That may be true if they were pagans and idolators, but if they were “people of the Book” i.e. Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians, etc. they were allowed to keep their religion provided they pay a yearly (I think) tax. This provided an incentive to convert, but fell short of outright coercion. In fact I’d say it appears fairly enlightened by the standards of the time – as does the treatment of religious minorities within Islamic empires. Islam spread in southeast Asia as seagoing merchants found it an expedient way of ensuring contracts with business partners.

However it does seem that Islam today has become more exclusivist for some reason (related to modern nationalism perhaps?) and sadly, many islamic countries do not permit freedom of religion. That I think will get worse before it gets better.

Do you ever bother to read the footnotes in the Bible? That statement made by Jesus about “not bringing peace but a sword” refers to the divisions that would occur even in families between those who accepted his message and those who didn’t and with the persecutions against his followers.

Vickie

 

[Sister_Amy]

Do you ever bother to read the footnotes in the Bible? That statement made by Jesus about “not bringing peace but a sword” refers to the divisions that would occur even in families between those who accepted his message and those who didn’t and with the persecutions against his followers.

Vickie

Wow… do you mean… that… maybe even what you read in Holy Scripture shouldn’t necessarily be taken at face value?

 

[R_not]

The word “Salaam” means peace, and I explained the meaning of the word “salaam.”

Islam comes from the same root–it doesn’t have the same meaning exactly. I wasn’t trying to imply that it does. Nor was I “spinning” anything.

Islam does mean submission–submission to God, and a Muslim is a person who submits to God. Submission implies obedience and surrender–both of which are willful and cannot be compelled or coerced.

Islam literally means submission to God in order to obtain the sense of wholeness (i.e., peace) which I described in a previous post.

Thank you. Finally, the truth comes out. the only problem that I have with this is that the idea that islamic teachings think that we should be subjugated to your religion. And this is where the religion and the politics start separating - this is why islam is not only a religion, but very much politics. And even you have stated that in a prior post.

quote from sister amy:

My point is that you must read things in context. Islam is a complete way of life–not just a personal worship regiment, it comprehensively includes a system of governance and international law. Yes, international law! Religion is not just spiritual. When the US goes to war, are there not religious people in its army? Is that violence to be ignored because it is political? To be sure, it makes up a certain part of their belief. So when you see a verse in the Qur’an which talks about fighting–yes, it talks about fighting. You must also look at the conditions which permit or necessitate fighting, and you must look at the restrictions on those who fight.

No matter how often we have said that we do not use religion as our reasons to go to war, even an American such as sister amy doesn’t want to study her own history of America. Or even recognize that it is America that has given muslims the freedom to practice their ‘religion’.

We do indeed think that we do it for the greater good, and that God is on our side but any man/woman will fight no matter what their religion and do not go screaming, ‘Jesusu akbar’, or ‘godu akbar’, and we have not subjugated any German, Korean, Vietnamese, or even Barbary pirate - who were muslims on a jihad!

We have not subjugated any Iraqi, Afghani, or any African either.

oh well, I diverted - as for the ‘wholeness’ does that mean we get to keep our heads? Or not be beaten, or made to feel our subjugation by being humiliated daily? Is that what you mean by keeping our ‘wholeness’?

I am not feeeeeling it.

 

[tomarin]

They already have - we get it from the Protestants (certain ones - not all) quite often. I have gotten it in my personal life.
The difference being that islam means submission. We do not worship Mary.

Well we agree about the latter part, but do you understand why it’s problematic for someone who doesn’t practice a religion to know better than the practitioner what it’s about?

 

[Booklover]

Being innocent has nothing to do with a person’s faith. Someone who isn’t fighting = innocent.

That depends on what you consider as “fighting”. Am I innocent when I denounce Islam? Am I not considered a kaffir and worthy of being killed for doing that?

Vickie

 

[tomarin]

Do you ever bother to read the footnotes in the Bible?

You’re being rhetorical, right?

That statement made by Jesus about “not bringing peace but a sword” refers to the divisions that would occur even in families between those who accepted his message and those who didn’t and with the persecutions against his followers.

I’m not sure there’s one single authoritative interpretation of that verse. I’ve seen it quoted many times here at CAF, for example, to show that we catholics are not pacifists and need to stand up for what we believe in.