Why are muslims so violent?

[Sister_Amy]

Yes, I attack Islam verbally as you very well know. Does that mean I should be killed for doing so??

Vickie

Why don’t you tell me what you think the appropriate response would be if someone attacks you? Or attacks your country? Or attacks your politics?

 

[Sister_Amy]

I did not mean to imply that non-Muslims were the only ones taxed. Sorry about that. However, is it fair to tax someone for their religious choice when there is no compulsion in religion?

That particular tax makes a lot of sense to me–it is a tax for protection. The government is charged with protecting the people inside it–and that isn’t necessarily free. So instead of paying the tax because your religion tells you to (like the Muslims have to,) you’re paying a tax because the government tells you.

AS for the other things, why is it for each example you can give, we can give others to counter it? I know that it is because of sinful man corrupting God’s words, but why can they follow the no alcohol or covering of women so well but not allow for freedom of worship?

If you’re talking about Saudi Arabia, it’s a special case. Are you, or are you talking about somewhere else?

 

[ralphinal]

That particular tax makes a lot of sense to me–it is a tax for protection. The government is charged with protecting the people inside it–and that isn’t necessarily free. So instead of paying the tax because your religion tells you to (like the Muslims have to,) you’re paying a tax because the government tells you.

Ok, but the government is taxing me because I am not Muslim. And every time this “protection” issue comes up, I think about my Uncle who got arrested for protection tax collections…

If you’re talking about Saudi Arabia, it’s a special case. Are you, or are you talking about somewhere else?

How about the Sudan, where the military attacked any group of 20 or more people gathered on a Sunday? Or Indonesia where churches are burned down by Muslim mobs and not allowed to be re-built? Or Iran… Afganistan …

Again, I will grant that these countries may not be following the correct Islamic code. I will gladly conceide that fact. Why don’t the rank and file Muslims force them to? Why do the suicide bombers not hit them a lick or two to force them to comply with Islamic law?

 

[dzheremi]

Non-Muslims are allowed to worship in public, and build houses of worship (Look at Egypt, for instance, and the construction of churches there.). Non-Muslims certainly don’t have to follow Shari’ah law–they’re encouraged to implement their own court systems.

For anyone interested in actually looking into the process of church construction, maintainance, and expansion in Egypt, this document, from the U.S. Department of State, provides a good overview. It is, to put it generously, a “mixed bag” with many discouraging outcomes. From the report:

"The Assiut bishopric has been waiting for local officials to issue a building permit for a new church in the governorate’s Arbaeen District, despite a 1997 order from the president and approval from the Ministry of Interior to issue the decree. Assiut’s El Hamra District and Burg al Arab, Alexandria Governorate, have been waiting since 1997 and 1988, respectively. The Brothers denomination, also in Assiut Governorate, received a permit to build a church in 2001, but local police stopped construction of the building’s foundation.

After eighteen years St. George Church in Dafesh, a majority Christian community near Assiut, Upper Egypt, obtained approval from the local governor in 2000 to build a new church to replace the original building, which had become too small to accommodate the growing community. Shortly after construction began in 2000 the new site was vandalized. The Government halted construction, ostensibly because the church had only obtained local approval and not the presidential decree required to build a new church. Construction remained halted at the end of the period covered by this report. The congregation continued to worship at the older site.

In 1999 the governor of Assiut issued a decree to St. John the Baptist at Awlad Elias in Sadfa, near Assiut, stating that the Orthodox church was given license to effect several remodeling projects and restoration projects. In 2001, however, Sadfa police halted repairs, because authorities believed that the church would enlarge its size by extending the building into the churchyard. After negotiations with State Security, the church received permission to demolish a wall to extend its size. However, after the newspaper Watani published an article exposing this issue and the outcome, State Security officials halted construction a second time. As of the end of June 2005, construction had not resumed, and the church was still waiting for the MOI to permit resumption of repairs. The congregation was forced to build a tent in the small church courtyard to conduct prayers."

Apparently the President has turned over the right to issue permits to build to the local governates, ostensibly to speed up the permit-granting process, and this sort of thing is sometimes what happens as a result. We should pray for our brothers and sisters in Egypt of all denominations, who face hardships in living as Christians in what was historically a great incubator of the Church as a whole, and is home to the great Apostolic Church founded by St. Mark.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Ok, but the government is taxing me because I am not Muslim. And every time this “protection” issue comes up, I think about my Uncle who got arrested for protection tax collections…

Then I suppose you and I disagree.

How about the Sudan, where the military attacked any group of 20 or more people gathered on a Sunday? Or Indonesia where churches are burned down by Muslim mobs and not allowed to be re-built? Or Iran… Afganistan …

The Sudan, a country that is completely unstable, at war with itself where genocide is rampant? A country where people are killed for their ethnicity, neverminding their religion? A country where women are raped and left to wander alone? Where a 10-yr old girl is in charge of her entire family–made up of several younger siblings–because she is the oldest? Where young boys watch their parents murdered and are subsequently recruited into the military before ever reaching puberty? And you’re worried about church services?

And in Indonesia… is a mob equivalent to a government?

I have heard than in Iran there are Jewish communities that function without much problem. I don’t know much of the specifics about Iran though.

Afghanistan is another impoverished war zone… and I begin to think our priorities might not be in order.

Again, I will grant that these countries may not be following the correct Islamic code. I will gladly conceide that fact. Why don’t the rank and file Muslims force them to? Why do the suicide bombers not hit them a lick or two to force them to comply with Islamic law?

Chicken and the egg. That’s not an excuse, but trust me, I want as much you do for Muslims to wake up and take ownership of their religion, to start following it for real.

 

[Sister_Amy]

For anyone interested in actually looking into the process of church construction, maintainance, and expansion in Egypt, this document, from the U.S. Department of State, provides a good overview. It is, to put it generously, a “mixed bag” with many discouraging outcomes.

Allow me to point out that Islam and Christianity have been in Egypt much, much longer than the United States has been a country.

And that the current Egyptian government receives more money from the USA in aid than does any other nation except for Israel.

 

[R_not]

**There are good or bad ppl in every community. It just that Muslims get more media attention.

I would just ask christians here to plz read the hisotry of christians, christianity, Crusades etc.**

Why don’t you read them? If you did you would find out why they were called because of islamic violence. And that they were done centuries ago.

Before mohammed was poisoned, mohammed was murdering non-muslims, assasinating individual Jews, destroying communities, mass slaughters and enslavement of women and children. It was estimated that he had killed about 24,000 Jews (who knows how many others) and set the stage for how muslims treated the Jews (and others) throughout history up to this very day.

1066 - muslim pogram exceeded the number of Jews killed by Cursaders 30 years later.
- 4,000 Jews perished
- we only hear about the Crusaders though and NEVER the murder and mayhem caused by the muslims.

I personally am tired of putting our morals on the people of the past. They did what they had to do - more than I can say for people of this time period who let muslim atrocities happen all the time. We hear a lot of gnashing of teeth and whining from our own left who DO NOTHING to stop muslim atrocities. They don’t even speak up during islamofascism week about the plight of muslim women in muslim lands! or slaves, or children, or anyone - but worry more about those bringing the news of such things and bashing them and Christians!

the Crusades were called centuries after rivers of blood ran due to muslim slaughters. Tens of thousands of Churches, temples and other places of worship were destroyed by muslims - as they are today! Many Christians were forced to convert to islam just to save their lives and thus condemning their children to islam! But we have no idea what atrocities were committed against them. I say to read a book of current history - of Lebanon - and you will see the type of torture that happens in our own 20th Century! It was/is atrocious. ‘Because They Hate’ is that book.

But, you are safe bashing Christians and questioning Christians because you don’t have to know history and we won’t kill you for questioning - as is done in muslim countries and what they try to do now via the stealth jihad in our countries at the UN to those who question islam. For now this is non-binding in our country, but time will tell.

I suggest the book, ‘Religion of Peace? why Christianity is and islam isn’t’.

Or how about ‘The New Concise History of hte Crusades’, Thomas Madden. And keep in mind that if one is not converted by islam, or killed, then they are subjected peoples - or slaves. All of this still alive and well in islam.

 

[ralphinal]

Then I suppose you and I disagree.

We can still be friends, right?

The Sudan, a country that is completely unstable, at war with itself where genocide is rampant? A country where people are killed for their ethnicity, neverminding their religion? A country where women are raped and left to wander alone? Where a 10-yr old girl is in charge of her entire family–made up of several younger siblings–because she is the oldest? Where young boys watch their parents murdered and are subsequently recruited into the military before ever reaching puberty? And you’re worried about church services?

The only reason that I mention Sudan, and I am well aware of the horrors there, is that Islam has not made the people any more peaceful thana anything else.

And in Indonesia… is a mob equivalent to a government?

It is when the government does not stop it and does not allow the church to be rebuilt

I have heard than in Iran there are Jewish communities that function without much problem. I don’t know much of the specifics about Iran though.

No one really does.

Afghanistan is another impoverished war zone… and I begin to think our priorities might not be in order.

Perhaps, but it has been rough there for years. Poor country with one of the largest reserves of oil in the world, but no way to get it out of there. That is why the USSR invaded them. If they were not landlocked, they would be much better off.

Chicken and the egg. That’s not an excuse, but trust me, I want as much you do for Muslims to wake up and take ownership of their religion, to start following it for real.

I beleive that. I truly do. But what can be done to help? Islam may be at an historical cross-roads where a small group of self-serving individuals is pushing it down a path that will only cause pain for the whole world. From here, and granted, I am far removed, it seems like most Muslims either do not know or do not care. I tend to think it is the former, but the latter is very likely.

 

[dzheremi]

Protection…extortion…discrimination…Ralphinal and Sister Amy can argue all day. At the end of that day, the Qur’an will still say this (emphasis in all cases added)::

009.029
YUSUFALI: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, **(even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. **

PICKTHAL: Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.

SHAKIR: Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

THERE IS NO WAY TO RATIONALIZE THIS AT ALL.

Sorry to yell, but I get sick of all the *-footing (apparently the censor doesn’t like this word; I hope we all understand English here well enough to understand its meaning, since I can’t think of a better one). Sister Amy, I believe as always that you mean well and are honest (ditto to you, Ralphinal), but at the end of the day the Qur’an trumps all, since it is, as Muslims are so fond of pointing out, the final word of God and all that…or at least taken to be. It says “submission”, “subdued”, “brought low”, “in a state of subjection”. These are its own phrases! And it explicit that this is against the people of the book, who we are told are so respected and granted so many rights under Islam! هراء!

If I demand that you pay me money to ensure your continued existence (in which you are to feel yourself brought low under my administration, as a second class citizen), it is the absolute hieght of lunacy for me to turn around and claim some great benevolence in protecting you. Extortion is not a great attribute of the faithful of God. There is no justification, contextual or historical, for it. So Christians didn’t have to die in wars among Muslims? Or launched by Muslims against Christians? I suppose it would be far too unrealistic to suggest that you curb your violent impulses rather than continue to exercise them in offensive wars which then provide you with a pretext to charge the protection money that you say the jaziya is. And if it isn’t protection money to avoid war (either serving in it or having it brought to your doorstep when you don’t even subscribe to the philosophy that apparently demands or condones it, that is, to Islam), then it is even worse!

So which is it: Extortion, protection (extortion and humiliation with a happy face), or something worse? No justification at all, I tell you! NONE.

God help you should you subjugate or kill His believers in His name, whether those on any side call themselves Christians, Muslims, or anything else.

 

[Sister_Amy]

We can still be friends, right?

Hope so.

The only reason that I mention Sudan, and I am well aware of the horrors there, is that Islam has not made the people any more peaceful thana anything else.

Should Islam make people peaceful who are being exterminated? Or do you think anyone committing genocide is actually following Islam? I certainly wouldn’t hold up Sudan as an example of a place where Islam has much relevance at all.

It is when the government does not stop it and does not allow the church to be rebuilt

I see. You might be right about that, but I don’t see such behavior being validated by Islam.

No one really does.

Indeed.

Perhaps, but it has been rough there for years. Poor country with one of the largest reserves of oil in the world, but no way to get it out of there. That is why the USSR invaded them. If they were not landlocked, they would be much better off.

I get sad everytime I see the word “Afghanistan.” A purely emotional response, I know… I just think about it and I see explosions at weddings.

I beleive that. I truly do. But what can be done to help? Islam may be at an historical cross-roads where a small group of self-serving individuals is pushing it down a path that will only cause pain for the whole world. From here, and granted, I am far removed, it seems like most Muslims either do not know or do not care. I tend to think it is the former, but the latter is very likely.

This paragraph is what I really want to reply to.

As a matter of fact, I was in a class last night (day 9 of 10-day intensive qur’an class) and we were talking about this specifically. Because you’re right, most Muslims don’t know or don’t care much about their religion at least.

There are some people who know a lot and care a lot about the people who are suffering, but it’s very few people. They try to raise awareness, even among Muslims, about the suffering in Sudan, Palestine, the troubles in Somalia and the Congo, or even problems local Muslims face like the woman who was jailed in Georgia just recently.

And then there are some people who know a lot about the religion and spend their time bickering about minute details like where to put their hands while they’re praying, or what kinds of meat they can eat.

Most Muslims don’t know much about their religion at all and are stuck somewhere in between and aren’t aware fully of what’s going on or how to help.

What you need is for people to rise up–the ones who care who have gone for knowledge, you need for them to stand up. And some people here on this very forum, they hate that idea. Because Muslims shouldn’t be setting bombs on the side of the road, or firing rockets, or blowing themselves up.

They should be standing together as a single collective body. The Muslims should stand up in Afghanistan and find the terrorists and take care of the people. The Muslims should stand up in Iraq and get the US Army out. They should stand up for the Palestinians. I mean, there are over a billion Muslims. But can you imagine if just a few thousand would do that?

And there are people, men and women, who are learning Islam and teaching Islam and trying to wake up these people.

Not for war, really, not to be indiscriminately violent (like some on this forum suggest.) But to stand up for the oppressed people, for the refugees, the victims of all these wars. To stand up and say we won’t let our brothers and sisters be tortured, we won’t let our children be stolen to fight someone else’s war, we won’t let our resources be plundered from under our feet.

It is happening, slowly.

But watch someone take this post of mine and use it to say that I’m promoting violence or something silly. It’s why people are afraid–why attacks against Islam are so fierce–they see the Muslims starting to rise up.

 

[pismopal]

You don’t need to be a Zoroastrian to know about Zoroastrianism. But when a Zoroastrian and a non-Zoroastrian disagree about what the religion teaches, it’s only common sense that the Zoroastrian’s opinion holds more weight.

That’s why I brought up the Mary worship issue. If you’re right then it is entirely possibly for a Protestant to have the final word on whether we “worship” her or not (patently ridiculous as that obviously is).

As for Amy, I think she seems very well informed about Islam, far better than you are. The posts of yours I have read are so one-sided and emotional that I don’t trust you to make a fair assessment of it.

I am not letting that go by unchallenged. The idea that any adherant of a particular religion necessarily knows more about their religion than one who does not adhere is pure rubbish. I am Catholic and I find that some…too many Catholics are not properly catechised. Whatever the reasons…probably many different reasons…and this goes for as many non Catholics as well.
The most well informed opinion should and usually does have the most weight. Some zealous posters here are simply attempting to knock off the rough edges of a very rough edged religion…maybe they are trying to fool themselves but it doesn’t appear to me to have fooled many others.
Islam doesn’t have a Pope or a central leader but it does have important spokesMEN and all one needs to do is listen to what THEY say…about what is in store for you as kuffur. Look at the bloody borders of islamic nations and do some homework. The muslima here have no say so in islam…nothing at all and they know it. R Not may sometimes think he is a voice crying in the wilderness but he is not.

 

[Reuben_J]

Protection…extortion…discrimination…Ralphinal and Sister Amy can argue all day. At the end of that day, the Qur’an will still say this (emphasis in all cases added)::

009.029
YUSUFALI: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, **(even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. **

PICKTHAL: Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.

SHAKIR: Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

THERE IS NO WAY TO RATIONALIZE THIS AT ALL.

And there are Muslims who follow this verse to the core. And who to say that they are wong?

 

[R_not]

I am not letting that go by unchallenged. The idea that any adherant of a particular religion necessarily knows more about their religion than one who does not adhere is pure rubbish. I am Catholic and I find that some…too many Catholics are not properly catechised. Whatever the reasons…probably many different reasons…and this goes for as many non Catholics as well.
The most well informed opinion should and usually does have the most weight. Some zealous posters here are simply attempting to knock off the rough edges of a very rough edged religion…maybe they are trying to fool themselves but it doesn’t appear to me to have fooled many others.
Islam doesn’t have a Pope or a central leader but it does have important spokesMEN and all one needs to do is listen to what THEY say…about what is in store for you as kuffur. Look at the bloody borders of islamic nations and do some homework. The muslima here have no say so in islam…nothing at all and they know it. R Not may sometimes think he is a voice crying in the wilderness but he is not.

I know they have no say - and this is what they want to establish in our lands - sharia laws. The laws that the ones who can vote in islam will not change, and the non-muslims cannot change because under sharia law they cannot vote.

**But, thanks - I find your post very refreshing. **

Professor Hatem Bazian, UCBerkeley
‘And it is about time that we have an intifada in this country, that change, fundamentally, the policital dynamics in here.’

(Intifada - Arabic for ‘throwing off,’ as a dog throws off fleas)

Here are some al-qaeda quotes, and notice the similarities between some on our own soil:

Omar Bakri Muhammad, Former leader Al-Muhajiroun
‘Jihad is a foreign policy to expand the islamic authority all over the world.’

Abu Jahya al-Libi, Al Qaeda leader
‘According to our belief, the whole world must be under the rule of islam without exception, even a single grain of soil.’

Yousef Khattab, supporter
-‘islam will dominate, this is what it will be.’
-‘We want to see sharia here and it will be. The flag of , “there is no god other than allah, muhammed is the messenger of god”, will be (god willing) on the White House, if thats where we choose it to be. It just takes time, the American people are waking up now.’
-‘There is no compulsion in islam, that means, we cannot force it on you, but we will force islamic (sharia), god willing.’

Abu Mujahid, spokesperson islamic Thinkers Society (ITS)
‘allah does say that the whole world will eventually be under his rule. The rule will come down to where everyone obeys the laws of god (sharia), as simple as that.’

Dr. Zakir Naik
‘In some islamic countries, eg: saudi arabia, etc propogation of other religions is prohibited. Even construction of any place of worship is also prohibited. in koran 3:85, it is mentioned that allah will never accept any religion other than islam therefore knowing that islam is the only true religion we do not allow propogation of any other religion.’

ITS (islamic Thinkers Society) June 2004
‘We are muslims and we will never stay silent against this act. Because allah, the glorified and exhalted, forbids homosexuality.’

Abu Mujahid, spokesperson ITS (in USA)
‘Sometimes we are blunt when the … ruling system is established we give them a choice we will consult them, give them choice of therapy and tell them to abandon the homosexuality lifestyle and if they don’t - either leave and if you want to be here then you got to face the punishment as a criminal.’

He was asked what is the punishment.

‘Throw them off a cliff.’

ITS NYC June 2004
(an unknown guy yelling)
‘We muslims will never, never accept your lifestyle. We ask allah to destroy you. We ask allah to burn you in hell. We ask allah to destroy you, … burn in hell.’

 

[ralphinal]

Hope so.

Should Islam make people peaceful who are being exterminated? Or do you think anyone committing genocide is actually following Islam? I certainly wouldn’t hold up Sudan as an example of a place where Islam has much relevance at all.

I see. You might be right about that, but I don’t see such behavior being validated by Islam.

Indeed.

I get sad everytime I see the word “Afghanistan.” A purely emotional response, I know… I just think about it and I see explosions at weddings.

This paragraph is what I really want to reply to.

As a matter of fact, I was in a class last night (day 9 of 10-day intensive qur’an class) and we were talking about this specifically. Because you’re right, most Muslims don’t know or don’t care much about their religion at least.

There are some people who know a lot and care a lot about the people who are suffering, but it’s very few people. They try to raise awareness, even among Muslims, about the suffering in Sudan, Palestine, the troubles in Somalia and the Congo, or even problems local Muslims face like the woman who was jailed in Georgia just recently.

And then there are some people who know a lot about the religion and spend their time bickering about minute details like where to put their hands while they’re praying, or what kinds of meat they can eat.

Most Muslims don’t know much about their religion at all and are stuck somewhere in between and aren’t aware fully of what’s going on or how to help.

What you need is for people to rise up–the ones who care who have gone for knowledge, you need for them to stand up. And some people here on this very forum, they hate that idea. Because Muslims shouldn’t be setting bombs on the side of the road, or firing rockets, or blowing themselves up.

They should be standing together as a single collective body. The Muslims should stand up in Afghanistan and find the terrorists and take care of the people. The Muslims should stand up in Iraq and get the US Army out. They should stand up for the Palestinians. I mean, there are over a billion Muslims. But can you imagine if just a few thousand would do that?

And there are people, men and women, who are learning Islam and teaching Islam and trying to wake up these people.

Not for war, really, not to be indiscriminately violent (like some on this forum suggest.) But to stand up for the oppressed people, for the refugees, the victims of all these wars. To stand up and say we won’t let our brothers and sisters be tortured, we won’t let our children be stolen to fight someone else’s war, we won’t let our resources be plundered from under our feet.

It is happening, slowly.

But watch someone take this post of mine and use it to say that I’m promoting violence or something silly. It’s why people are afraid–why attacks against Islam are so fierce–they see the Muslims starting to rise up.

Very thoughtful post.

I hope that some people in Islam do take more control and guide it from a system of oppression in these nations.

It just seems to me that all too often, a small group inside Islam has an agend then uses the “great unwashed masses” to push it forward, treating the poor and uneducated as expendable pawns in the plan. What I think would be best is if the more educated, Western Muslims, like yourself, were to be more assertive in the direction that Islam faces.

Let’s take Afganistan, just because it is so sad. You have a situation where MILLIONS of innocents suffer because a small group of idiots decided to try to destroy the United States in an unprovoked attack. Then, a larger group of idiots, instead of seeing what was best for the innocent, tried to protect them. Had I been in charge of the Taliban, I would have cut a deal with the US. Say, bin Laden and his bunch for $100 billion in aid over the next 10 years. Something to help my people. No, instead they decided to fight us on it. Now, we are stuck in a quagmire that only hurts the least involved. Through it all, other Muslim nations either condemn us, as if we went in trying to kill innocents, or condemn the terrorists while not getting TOO harsh, but I have yet to hear one of them say that the Taliban brought this upon themselves.

 

[R_not]

Very thoughtful post.

I hope that some people in Islam do take more control and guide it from a system of oppression in these nations.

It just seems to me that all too often, a small group inside Islam has an agend then uses the “great unwashed masses” to push it forward, treating the poor and uneducated as expendable pawns in the plan. What I think would be best is if the more educated, Western Muslims, like yourself, were to be more assertive in the direction that Islam faces.

Let’s take Afganistan, just because it is so sad. You have a situation where MILLIONS of innocents suffer because a small group of idiots decided to try to destroy the United States in an unprovoked attack. Then, a larger group of idiots, instead of seeing what was best for the innocent, tried to protect them. Had I been in charge of the Taliban, I would have cut a deal with the US. Say, bin Laden and his bunch for $100 billion in aid over the next 10 years. Something to help my people. No, instead they decided to fight us on it. Now, we are stuck in a quagmire that only hurts the least involved. Through it all, other Muslim nations either condemn us, as if we went in trying to kill innocents, or condemn the terrorists while not getting TOO harsh, but I have yet to hear one of them say that the Taliban brought this upon themselves.

What about the Pakistanis helping to train the jihadists, or hiding them, and the saudis who are funding all of this? While the truly poor get the worst of it all?

Or look at the Palestinians - they get money for when they send a son to blow themselves up, but all the money that was/is funneled to them doesn’t help the poor - but the jihadists. And all the money we dump to them while their situation never improves because they just buy more bombs to lob over into Israel!

 

[Sister_Amy]

Very thoughtful post.

I hope that some people in Islam do take more control and guide it from a system of oppression in these nations.

It just seems to me that all too often, a small group inside Islam has an agend then uses the “great unwashed masses” to push it forward, treating the poor and uneducated as expendable pawns in the plan. What I think would be best is if the more educated, Western Muslims, like yourself, were to be more assertive in the direction that Islam faces.

Let’s take Afganistan, just because it is so sad. You have a situation where MILLIONS of innocents suffer because a small group of idiots decided to try to destroy the United States in an unprovoked attack. Then, a larger group of idiots, instead of seeing what was best for the innocent, tried to protect them. Had I been in charge of the Taliban, I would have cut a deal with the US. Say, bin Laden and his bunch for $100 billion in aid over the next 10 years. Something to help my people. No, instead they decided to fight us on it. Now, we are stuck in a quagmire that only hurts the least involved. Through it all, other Muslim nations either condemn us, as if we went in trying to kill innocents, or condemn the terrorists while not getting TOO harsh, but I have yet to hear one of them say that the Taliban brought this upon themselves.

Thanks for reading my post–I had a lot on my mind–much of which was coming from this class I’m taking right now. I fervently hope that Muslims do stand up against the oppression around them. And I absolutely agree that there are small groups with an agenda (sometimes not a very good one either) are trying to direct “the masses” into improper directions.

But I don’t think the West has the answer. Maybe I can help, a Muslim like myself–not because I’m Western but because I am thinking, because I am learning, because I have had the opportunity to learn and study in relative ease and because God has gifted me with certain skills that I can use to help educate others.

When I look at Afghanistan, I see a different quagmire. I carry a little more skepticism about the official story of 9/11, about bin Laden, and about the Taliban, than you might.

I think terrorism is an incredible injustice–whereever it is. But let me say that it’s my view that injustice does not justify yet another injustice. I.e., two rights don’t make a wrong.

 

[bpcatholic]

France and Germany are perfect examples, where Muslims have created areas for themselves that are so dangerous for non-Muslims that the police and fire department are afraid to enter them.

I would like to say a few things about Muslims in Germany.

1. It is very true that Muslims create their own areas. Not only that, but non-Muslims are forbidden to go into those areas! I find this rediculous!
2. About a year ago or so a Muslim family was burned alive in their apartment in Germany for no reason. In response, a group of Muslims went to a fire station and killed firefighters. Even more rediculous, the Turkish government forbid the German police to investigate the apartment building, they wanted to do that themselves!

This means that the German governement isn’t allowed to investigate in its borders and that Germans are not allowed to go to certain areas in their own country!

 

[R_not]

I would like to say a few things about Muslims in Germany.

1. It is very true that Muslims create their own areas. Not only that, but non-Muslims are forbidden to go into those areas! I find this rediculous!
2. About a year ago or so a Muslim family was burned alive in their apartment in Germany for no reason. In response, a group of Muslims went to a fire station and killed firefighters. Even more rediculous, the Turkish government forbid the German police to investigate the apartment building, they wanted to do that themselves!

This means that the German governement isn’t allowed to investigate in its borders and that Germans are not allowed to go to certain areas in their own country!

Why was the Turkish government allowed to even have a say in what Germany does within its own borders?

 

[Booklover]

I am not letting that go by unchallenged. The idea that any adherant of a particular religion necessarily knows more about their religion than one who does not adhere is pure rubbish. I am Catholic and I find that some…too many Catholics are not properly catechised. Whatever the reasons…probably many different reasons…and this goes for as many non Catholics as well.
The most well informed opinion should and usually does have the most weight. Some zealous posters here are simply attempting to knock off the rough edges of a very rough edged religion…maybe they are trying to fool themselves but it doesn’t appear to me to have fooled many others.
Islam doesn’t have a Pope or a central leader but it does have important spokesMEN and all one needs to do is listen to what THEY say…about what is in store for you as kuffur. Look at the bloody borders of islamic nations and do some homework. The muslima here have no say so in islam…nothing at all and they know it. R Not may sometimes think he is a voice crying in the wilderness but he is not.

I agree! Excellent post, by the way!

Vickie

 

[Booklover]

As Iranian ex-Muslim Amil Imani states

"Truth is not always welcome and can often be greatly disturbing. But truth is the best weapon against evil and falsehood. When I point out the horrific teachings of the Quran, I don’t make them up. I cite surahs from their holy book, surahs that exhort the Muslims to carry out all kinds of evil deeds against non-Muslims. This book of Allah is a license to kill. When I point out that Muhammad set terrible examples for his followers by his own deeds, I cite from their own sources to document my assertion.

Is there anyone in this messed-up world who doesn’t read, see, or hear about the daily Islamic atrocities performed by these savages, with every act justified on the basis of Allah’s holy book?

Qur’an 8:12 “I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle.”

Qur’an 33:26 “Allah made the Jews leave their homes by terrorizing them so that you killed some and made many captive. And He made you inherit their lands, their homes, and their wealth. He gave you a country you had not traversed before.”

Why is it that these self-righteous Islamist villains don’t bother to prove me wrong? Why don’t they document what I say as being false? Instead, I am showered by all kinds of unspeakable profanity. Some of the more civil of the Muslims don’t stoop as low as their foul co-religionists. These latter types let out a hue and cry that they and their religion are smeared and victimized by people like me. They consider my criticisms of Islam as Islam bashing. They accuse me as a divisive- racist who enjoys Islam bashing. For good measure, they also label me Zionist, in the pay of Israel and Israeli lobbies. Who is bashing whom? Please prove any one of my charges to be false or fabricated and I’ll happily repent. If, on the other hand, you fail to do so, you owe it to humanity to abandon your allegiance to the scourge of Islam."

Vickie