Why are muslims so violent?

[ralphinal]

Ralph, I’m really impressed you actually went to investigate the Pew Report. Seriously.

This is precisely it. When you ask a Muslim about “Suicide bombing,” he/she is going to first think of Palestine. Not Iraq, or anywhere else, but Palestine. And let me share with you that thought process (I personally know one guy who won’t even say “suicide bomber” but uses the term “sacrificial bomber.”) The way Muslims look at Palestine, for the most part, is to see a group of civilians, non-combatants–fathers, mothers, children–who are being denied basic human rights by a military occupation. That there are tanks in their streets, they can’t leave their houses without fear of being shot by a soldier, the children have to pass through military checkpoints just to walk to school. That’s what Muslims see, people who are suffering, who are being oppressed, and who have literally no way to fight back. No military, nor any military to come and help them. And that all they have are sticks and stones to throw at tanks and bombers. And they see that their only means of defending themselves is through sneak-attack suicide bombing. They think it is their only recourse.

Now, I don’t hold that view. I just wanted to share with you why you might find many Muslims seeing suicide bombing as acceptable–because they are thinking of a situation where they see no other option.

I can see that. I really can. However, there is the issue with killing innocents.

That doesn’t making suicide bombing permissible in Islam. It’s not, for many reasons, among which are suicide is not permissible, killing innocent civilians (and Israeli Jews having pizza are innocent civilians). I don’t think suicide bombing is acceptable, Islamically, at all. I just want you to understand the thought process of someone who does, and what they are really thinking, and why.

I am not of the mindset to be a suicide bomber. I am of more value if I can hit more than once. I wonder how many Muslims agree with your definition of Innocent. I would dare say that if all of them did, we would not be having this conversation.

Like I said last night–skepticism about the “official story.”

I have seen all of the reasons people doubt the real story. None of them hold water to me for a lot of reasons, some scientific, some opinion. I wonder how many of those who doubt it do so just because it was Arab Muslims catching the blame

And like I think I also mentioned–younger Muslims are sort of rising up. In general they are more religiously observant than their parents (you see two divergent cases here, btw) and more religiously conscious than their parents. This is a movement I see.

Sometimes you’ll find Muslim parents who aren’t that interested in Islam really, and their kids are the same way and are even further away from Islam.

But the opposite extreme is that their children are even closer to the Muslim community and Islam than the parents are. Most Muslims are going in to one of these directions, which I consider to be non-observant (the first group), and mainstream (second group.)

I’m definitely someone who considers myself Muslim first, and then American.

THat was something that the report mentioned. It is interesting that American Muslims are less accepting of Violence than European ones.

By “radicals” do you mean people who think that suicide bombing might sometimes (i.e., in Palestine) be justified?

No. I mean those who think it is acceptable. Justified is not the same as acceptable.

But they don’t consider it to be preferred or especially honorable, I think.

Perhaps.

 

[ralphinal]

Oh, and of the 108 pages of the report, only a few had to do with violence. It had some interesting information. When I get time, I might read more of it.

 

[R_not]

Ralph, I’m really impressed you actually went to investigate the Pew Report. Seriously.

This is precisely it. When you ask a Muslim about “Suicide bombing,” he/she is going to first think of Palestine. Not Iraq, or anywhere else, but Palestine. And let me share with you that thought process (I personally know one guy who won’t even say “suicide bomber” but uses the term “sacrificial bomber.”) The way Muslims look at Palestine, for the most part, is to see a group of civilians, non-combatants–fathers, mothers, children–who are being denied basic human rights by a military occupation. That there are tanks in their streets, they can’t leave their houses without fear of being shot by a soldier, the children have to pass through military checkpoints just to walk to school. That’s what Muslims see, people who are suffering, who are being oppressed, and who have literally no way to fight back. No military, nor any military to come and help them. And that all they have are sticks and stones to throw at tanks and bombers. And they see that their only means of defending themselves is through sneak-attack suicide bombing. They think it is their only recourse.

Now, I don’t hold that view. I just wanted to share with you why you might find many Muslims seeing suicide bombing as acceptable–because they are thinking of a situation where they see no other option.

That doesn’t making suicide bombing permissible in Islam. It’s not, for many reasons, among which are suicide is not permissible, killing innocent civilians (and Israeli Jews having pizza are innocent civilians). I don’t think suicide bombing is acceptable, Islamically, at all. I just want you to understand the thought process of someone who does, and what they are really thinking, and why.

Like I said last night–skepticism about the “official story.”

And like I think I also mentioned–younger Muslims are sort of rising up. In general they are more religiously observant than their parents (you see two divergent cases here, btw) and more religiously conscious than their parents. This is a movement I see.

Sometimes you’ll find Muslim parents who aren’t that interested in Islam really, and their kids are the same way and are even further away from Islam.

But the opposite extreme is that their children are even closer to the Muslim community and Islam than the parents are. Most Muslims are going in to one of these directions, which I consider to be non-observant (the first group), and mainstream (second group.)

I’m definitely someone who considers myself Muslim first, and then American.

By “radicals” do you mean people who think that suicide bombing might sometimes (i.e., in Palestine) be justified?

But they don’t consider it to be preferred or especially honorable, I think.

the ones who are denying the Palestinians ‘human rights’ are their own government, or lack thereof - while they are more worried about buying more bombs, training more children to be terrorists, etc.

It isn’t the Israelis responsibility to maintain them - they gave them the Gaza strip and the Pals also have other land - and the pals still worry more about killing Jews than taking care of their own.

The stone throwing is due to the muslims thinking that they should spend their time doing such deeds instead of doing something more constructive.

This blindness about the situation over there by muslims and your apologists is sickening. The pals could have had peace but have broken more peace treaties than there is sand on this globe. And it is all due to islam - mohammed - telling muslims not to keep peace treaties longer than 10 years and to break them as soon as they can. mohammed has created the situation of violence and the mindless acceptance of this violence by the so called ‘peaceful’ ones just emboldens the violent ones - especially since they get money if they are jihadists from these so called ‘peaceful’ ones.

Some koranic surahs promoting this mess:

• Threat of punishment for not going to war-> 9:38-39 48:16
• Only Islam Acceptable-> 3:85
• Fight non-believers-> 9:123
• Kill non-believers-> 4:89
• Anti Jew verses-> 5:82
• God a “plotter”, deceiver → 8:30
• Killing Idolaters-> 9:05
• Idolaters are unclean just because they are idolater-> 9:28
• Cast terror in the hearts, smite the neck and cut fingertips of unbelievers-> 8:12
• smite the neck of unbelievers->47:4
• Severe Punishment for atheists-> 10:4 5:10 5:86
• Severe Punishment for non-believers-> 22:19-22 72:23 98:6
• Punishing non-believers of Hereafter-> 17:10
• Punishing for rejecting faith-> 3:91

why the so called ‘peaceful’ ones are not honest about their own koran:

• Intentionally preventing unbelievers from knowing the truth-> 6:25 6:110
• Intentionally preventing unbelievers from Understanding Qur’an-> 17:45-76

 

[R_not]

islam’s culture of denial

Take note this video brings up why sister amy is forbidden to be an American first. The koran forbids them. They demand in our countries but give nothing in their countries. In fact, we are finding that in their communities - it is dangerous for non-muslims to walk - but they demand the freedom of movement in our communities.

Take note of their discrimination, segregation, and gender racism.

there is much more.

 

[ferdie]

Look at her statistics again. You can look up the Pew report, as the whole thing is online. The vast majority says suicide bombings are never justified. Notice how she selected only 18-20 year olds. Is that a fair slice of the pie, do you think?

What are the vast majority of peaceful muslims doing to prevent fundamentalists from hijacking the good name of Islam? They can always say that they don’t support the suicide bombings, but the question is what are they doing to oprevent it?

You know I ask the same question to my countrymen in the Philiippines, and as usual they gave me the run around answers. Maybe in reality they don’t really want to prevent the violence, coz they want their own muslim land with their own muslim laws.

 

[apromisemade]

No matter where in the world you look, wherever muslims are gathered in great numbers (Middle East, eastern Europe, India, Indoneisia, Burma, Phillipines, southern Russia, western China) they are constantly engaged in violent conflicts with their neighbors. Why do members of this religion so often engage in violence with their neighbors? Will they ever change or will they will Islam always be intrinsically violent?

I think we need to bear in mind there was a period in history when the same thing could’ve been said about Christianity. The Salem Witch trials and the Marian Persecutions were extremely violent.

That being said. I think it is a faulty statement to say the Islam is “intrinsically violent.” You could’ve said that Japanese were “intrisically violent” during WWII, but the truth is everyone is an individual and many of the civilians would just as soon live and let live. No one

likes

getting their childrens school blown up or getting their sons head mailed to them in a box. The Islamic people as a whole would prefer peace over violence as much as anyone. We must be careful not to attribute the actions of individual terrorist networks, dictators, and warlords to the teachings of Islam in of itself.

 

[apromisemade]

Oops, I didn’t mean to put* likes *in quotes.

 

[R_not]

I think we need to bear in mind there was a period in history when the same thing could’ve been said about Christianity. The Salem Witch trials and the Marian Persecutions were extremely violent.

That being said. I think it is a faulty statement to say the Islam is “intrinsically violent.” You could’ve said that Japanese were “intrisically violent” during WWII, but the truth is everyone is an individual and many of the civilians would just as soon live and let live. No one getting their childrens school blown up or getting their sons head mailed to them in a box. The Islamic people as a whole would prefer peace over violence as much as anyone. We must be careful not to attribute the actions of individual terrorist networks, dictators, and warlords to the teachings of Islam in of itself.

The problem is that there has been 1400 years of violence, starting with mohammed, and no end in sight. Read the koran and peruse the hadiths - you will see what I am talking about. We have learned, we apologize and they do not, do not apologize and instead deflect, ignore, claim victimhood, etc.

History of jihad

Centrality of jihad in islam

A quote: “Muslims are religiously obliged to disseminate the Islamic faith throughout the world… If non-Muslims submit to conversion or subjugation, this call can be pursued peacefully. If they do not, Muslims are obliged to wage war against them.” World peace, according to Islamic teaching, “is reached only with the conversion or submission of all mankind to Islam.”

Their peace treaties are never premanent due to mohammed telling them to never keep it longer than 10 years and break it as soon as they are ready to fight again (hudna). They only recognize death, conversion or subjugation of non-muslims (dhimmitude). And their goals is not necessarily to convert or kill, but to subjugate and bring us under sharia law (the worst human rights violations are places where these are enforced).

And deception is very much a part of islam.

• Intentionally preventing unbelievers from knowing the truth-> 6:25 6:110
• Intentionally preventing unbelievers from Understanding Qur’an-> 17:45-76

 

[Valke2]

You can’t use history to mitigate what is happening today. Today, we have a situation where massive amounts of money have been put in the hands of the most violent fringe elements of a major religon at a time when a small number of people can do a tremendous amount of damage and have the ability to continue to spread their message that their small, fundamental craziness should be the norm for the rest of the billion adherents throughout the world.,

This is unprecedented and makes any historical reference moot.

 

[R_not]

You can’t use history to mitigate what is happening today. Today, we have a situation where massive amounts of money have been put in the hands of the most violent fringe elements of a major religon at a time when a small number of people can do a tremendous amount of damage and have the ability to continue to spread their message that their small, fundamental craziness should be the norm for the rest of the billion adherents throughout the world.,

This is unprecedented and makes any historical reference moot.

Except for the fact that jihad is a major precept of islam and for all to do it. right now they just have more money to be able to buy more and better bombs, train more people as jihadists (mostly in Pakistan), send out their clerics to more than just a few mosques and to bribe, sue and various other things also including paying the families of suicide bombers. It is the same old story with a major difference of ‘stealth’ before the word jihad instead of just the usual violent kind.

the goals are the same - with subjugation being the primary goal and to enforce sharia laws.

Professor Hatem Bazian, UCBerkeley
‘And it is about time that we have an intifada in this country, that change, fundamentally, the policital dynamics in here.’

(Intifada - Arabic for ‘throwing off,’ as a dog throws off fleas)

Here are some al-qaeda quotes, and notice the similarities between some on our own soil:

Omar Bakri Muhammad, Former leader Al-Muhajiroun
‘Jihad is a foreign policy to expand the islamic authority all over the world.’

Abu Jahya al-Libi, Al Qaeda leader
‘According to our belief, the whole world must be under the rule of islam without exception, even a single grain of soil.’

Yousef Khattab, supporter
-‘islam will dominate, this is what it will be.’
-‘We want to see sharia here and it will be. The flag of , “there is no god other than allah, muhammed is the messenger of god”, will be (god willing) on the White House, if thats where we choose it to be. It just takes time, the American people are waking up now.’
-‘There is no compulsion in islam, that means, we cannot force it on you, but we will force islamic (sharia), god willing.’

Abu Mujahid, spokesperson islamic Thinkers Society (ITS)
‘allah does say that the whole world will eventually be under his rule. The rule will come down to where everyone obeys the laws of god (sharia), as simple as that.’

Dr. Zakir Naik
‘In some islamic countries, eg: saudi arabia, etc propogation of other religions is prohibited. Even construction of any place of worship is also prohibited. in koran 3:85, it is mentioned that allah will never accept any religion other than islam therefore knowing that islam is the only true religion we do not allow propogation of any other religion.’

ITS (islamic Thinkers Society) June 2004
‘We are muslims and we will never stay silent against this act. Because allah, the glorified and exhalted, forbids homosexuality.’

Abu Mujahid, spokesperson ITS (in USA)
‘Sometimes we are blunt when the … ruling system is established we give them a choice we will consult them, give them choice of therapy and tell them to abandon the homosexuality lifestyle and if they don’t - either leave and if you want to be here then you got to face the punishment as a criminal.’

He was asked what is the punishment.

‘Throw them off a cliff.’

ITS NYC June 2004
(an unknown guy yelling)
‘We muslims will never, never accept your lifestyle. We ask allah to destroy you. We ask allah to burn you in hell. We ask allah to destroy you, … burn in hell.’

 

[ferdie]

You can’t use history to mitigate what is happening today. Today, we have a situation where massive amounts of money have been put in the hands of the most violent fringe elements of a major religon at a time when a small number of people can do a tremendous amount of damage and have the ability to continue to spread their message that their small, fundamental craziness should be the norm for the rest of the billion adherents throughout the world.,

This is unprecedented and makes any historical reference moot.

I agree.

 

[apromisemade]

The problem is that there has been 1400 years of violence, starting with mohammed, and no end in sight. Read the koran and peruse the hadiths - you will see what I am talking about. We have learned, we apologize and they do not, do not apologize and instead deflect, ignore, claim victimhood, etc.

History of jihad

Centrality of jihad in islam

A quote: “Muslims are religiously obliged to disseminate the Islamic faith throughout the world… If non-Muslims submit to conversion or subjugation, this call can be pursued peacefully. If they do not, Muslims are obliged to wage war against them.” World peace, according to Islamic teaching, “is reached only with the conversion or submission of all mankind to Islam.”

But note, these articles are talking about jihadists, not the Islamic faith as a whole, the two terms are not interchangable. That would be like saying all Christians are part of the KKK.

 

[Reuben_J]

I think we need to bear in mind there was a period in history when the same thing could’ve been said about Christianity. The Salem Witch trials and the Marian Persecutions were extremely violent.

That being said. I think it is a faulty statement to say the Islam is “intrinsically violent.” You could’ve said that Japanese were “intrisically violent” during WWII, but the truth is everyone is an individual and many of the civilians would just as soon live and let live. No one getting their childrens school blown up or getting their sons head mailed to them in a box. The Islamic people as a whole would prefer peace over violence as much as anyone. We must be careful not to attribute the actions of individual terrorist networks, dictators, and warlords to the teachings of Islam in of itself.

You are right we cannot use a few individual Muslims to judge Islam. I try not to do that but have you go through the Quran and the Hadith to learn what being written, commanded and the examples of Mohammad? Unfortunately these speak for themselves and they ARE quite violent.

It would seem Muslims who interpret them like the terrorists are more apt than the ones who apologize for them. There are some Quranic verses that the terrorists used as their inspiration to do what they did.

This is all very unfortunate because Muslims are people like any of us but Islam does not do them much good unless they choose to keep blind eyes on some of it teachings.

 

[R_not]

R_not;4570387:

The problem is that there has been 1400 years of violence, starting with mohammed, and no end in sight. Read the koran and peruse the hadiths - you will see what I am talking about. We have learned, we apologize and they do not, do not apologize and instead deflect, ignore, claim victimhood, etc.

History of jihad

Centrality of jihad in islam

A quote: “Muslims are religiously obliged to disseminate the Islamic faith throughout the world… If non-Muslims submit to conversion or subjugation, this call can be pursued peacefully. If they do not, Muslims are obliged to wage war against them.” World peace, according to Islamic teaching, “is reached only with the conversion or submission of all mankind to Islam.”

But note, these articles are talking about jihadists, not the Islamic faith as a whole, the two terms are not interchangable. That would be like saying all Christians are part of the KKK.

jihad is an essential part of islam. The KKK is actually just as radical as the Ayers types - and example of far right and far left. And our laws do indeed take care of them if they break laws - sharia laws do not if jihadists kill, or do anything to non-muslims - and they do very little about ‘honor killings’, if anything at all.

jihad is to islam as the Resurrection is to Christianity

a quote from the above article: The last two chapters of the Qur’an are chapter 5 and chapter 9, in their correct chronological order, Allah’s Last Call. The opinions of scholars differ over which is the last chapter, but they both contain the final orders for all Muslims. These laws abrogate, cancel ALL the earlier, ‘peaceful and tolerant’ verses of the Qur’an. These final and absolute orders demand Jihad, holy war against all non-Muslims forever. All non-Muslims must be killed, enslaved and controlled by Muslims. Islam must rule the world. Islam is in fact a License to Kill in the name of Allah. Holy War is the holy law of Islam. This unique law called Jihad gives all Muslims the right to attack and kill non-Muslims, to loot, rape and enslave them, and to rule the world in the name of Allah.

Jihad is as essential to Islam as the Resurrection is to Christianity.

97% of the jihad taught in the koran is the violent kind with the ‘inner struggle’ lumped with the other 3% taught.

violent jihad at least once a year

Centrality of jihad in islam

 

[famdigy]

apromisemade;4570525:

97% of the jihad taught in the koran is the violent kind with the ‘inner struggle’ lumped with the other 3% taught.

really? 97% you say?
hmmm…how exactly did you come to 97%, why not 96 or 98?

 

[Sister_Amy]

What are the vast majority of peaceful muslims doing to prevent fundamentalists from hijacking the good name of Islam? They can always say that they don’t support the suicide bombings, but the question is what are they doing to oprevent it?

You know I ask the same question to my countrymen in the Philiippines, and as usual they gave me the run around answers. Maybe in reality they don’t really want to prevent the violence, coz they want their own muslim land with their own muslim laws.

What do you think I should do? This is not a rhetorical question, I really want to know. What do you think I should do?

 

[Sister_Amy]

R_not;4570567:

really? 97% you say?
hmmm…how exactly did you come to 97%, why not 96 or 98?

LOL Good one.

 

[Sister_Amy]

really? 97% you say?
hmmm…how exactly did you come to 97%, why not 96 or 98?

LOL Good one.

 

[Schnitz]

famdigy:

really? 97% you say?
hmmm…how exactly did you come to 97%, why not 96 or 98?

One would assume that the poster used this rather odd thing called math. It tends to be accurate, thus explaining the 97%, and not “96 or 98.”

 

[ErrorCMDR]

Remember not to Stereotype them, All Extremists are wrong.

The Muslim extremist who blows up a buildings is just as Wrong as the Christian who shoots a Doctor who does abortions.
You can not lump everyone in the same group it is wrong. Plus doesn’t the Bible say “judge not lest ye be judged” and “Vengeance is mine saith the Lord”? Do not be so quick to judge Muslims Bud.

God Bless

EC