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- Status
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eichenb2
Guest
Did you read the message?Demonizing other people you don’t know or maybe have never met, is not the way we were taught. The title can easily be made to: Re: Why are Christians so violent? or Re: Why are Catholics so violent? The pot and the kettle my good loving people.
he is not demonizing people he is demonizing the doctrine of Jihad in Islam. Don’t “read between the lines”, just read the sources in thier plain, literal sense and you see why SOME Muslims are so violent. Islam teaches this violence. Christianity does not. Most muslims do not take the hardline on Jihad because it is an uncomfortable topic. In fact, I think that they come up with various loopholes to ignore this principal doctrine of Islam, due to the Natural Law that God put in them.
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Sister_Amy
Guest
I once stood in front of a classroom full of police officers to explain why Muslims consider jihad to be a noble concept in Islam. They got it.
Catholics get it too, and have the same thing. They just demonize it when they see it in others.
Consider “Just War Theory.”
Catholics get it too, and have the same thing. They just demonize it when they see it in others.
Consider “Just War Theory.”
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eichenb2
Guest
The Qur’an:
Sura (2:191-193) - “And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]…and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah.” There is a good case to be made that the overall context of this particular passage is defensive war, however, there are two worrisome pieces to these verse. The first is that the killing of others is authorized in the event of “persecution” (a qualification that is ambiguous at best). The second is that fighting may persist until “religion is for Allah.” The example set by Muhammad is not reassuring.
Sura (2:244) - “Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things.”
Sura (2:216) - “Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.”
Sura (3:56) - “As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help.”
Sura (3:151) - “Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority”. This speaks directly of killing Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be ‘joining companions to Allah’).
Sura (4:74) - “Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward.”
Sura (4:76) - “Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…”
Sura (4:89) - “They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks.”
Sura (4:95) - “Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-” This passage not only criticizes “peaceful” Muslims who do not join in the violence, but also demolishes the modern myth that “Jihad” doesn’t mean holy war in the Qur’an, but rather a spiritual struggle. Not only is the Arabic word used in this passage, but it is clearly not referring to anything spiritual, since the physically disabled are given exemption. (The Hadith reveals the context of the passage to be in response to a blind man’s protest that he is unable to engage in Jihad).
Sura (4:104) - “And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain…” Pursuing an injured enemy is not an act of self-defense.
Sura (5:33) - “The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement”
Sura (2:191-193) - “And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]…and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah.” There is a good case to be made that the overall context of this particular passage is defensive war, however, there are two worrisome pieces to these verse. The first is that the killing of others is authorized in the event of “persecution” (a qualification that is ambiguous at best). The second is that fighting may persist until “religion is for Allah.” The example set by Muhammad is not reassuring.
Sura (2:244) - “Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things.”
Sura (2:216) - “Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.”
Sura (3:56) - “As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help.”
Sura (3:151) - “Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority”. This speaks directly of killing Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be ‘joining companions to Allah’).
Sura (4:74) - “Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward.”
Sura (4:76) - “Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…”
Sura (4:89) - “They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks.”
Sura (4:95) - “Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-” This passage not only criticizes “peaceful” Muslims who do not join in the violence, but also demolishes the modern myth that “Jihad” doesn’t mean holy war in the Qur’an, but rather a spiritual struggle. Not only is the Arabic word used in this passage, but it is clearly not referring to anything spiritual, since the physically disabled are given exemption. (The Hadith reveals the context of the passage to be in response to a blind man’s protest that he is unable to engage in Jihad).
Sura (4:104) - “And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain…” Pursuing an injured enemy is not an act of self-defense.
Sura (5:33) - “The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement”
E
eichenb2
Guest
Sura (8:12) - “I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them”
Sura (8:15) - “O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey’s end.”
Sura (8:39) - “And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah”
Sura (8:57) - “If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember.”
Sura (8:59-60) - “And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah’s Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy.”
Sura (9:5) - “So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them.”
Sura (9:14) - “Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace…”
Sura (9:20) - “Those who believe, and have left their homes and striven with their wealth and their lives in Allah’s way are of much greater worth in Allah’s sight. These are they who are triumphant.” The “striving” spoken of here is Jihad.
Sura (9:29) - “Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”
Sura (9:30) - “And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!”
Sura (9:38-39) - “O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place.” This is a warning to those who refuse to fight, that they will be punished with Hell.
Sura (9:41) - “Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! That is best for you if ye but knew.”
Sura (9:73) - “O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination.”
Sura (9:88) - “But the Messenger, and those who believe with him, strive and fight with their wealth and their persons: for them are (all) good things: and it is they who will prosper.”
Sura (9:111) - “Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur’an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.”
Sura (9:123) - “O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness.”
Sura (21:44) - “We gave the good things of this life to these men and their fathers until the period grew long for them; See they not that We gradually reduce the land (in their control) from its outlying borders? Is it then they who will win?”
Sura (25:52) - “Therefore listen not to the Unbelievers, but strive against them with the utmost strenuousness, with the (Qur’an).” “Strive against” is Jihad, obviously not in the personal context. It’s also significant to point out that this is a Meccan verse.
Sura (47:4) - “So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners,”
Sura (47:35) - “Be not weary and faint-hearted, crying for peace, when ye should be uppermost (Shakir: “have the upper hand”) for Allah is with you,”
Sura (48:17) - “There is no blame for the blind, nor is there blame for the lame, nor is there blame for the sick (that they go not forth to war). And whoso obeyeth Allah and His messenger, He will make him enter Gardens underneath which rivers flow; and whoso turneth back, him will He punish with a painful doom.”
Sura (48:29) - “Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves”
Sura (61:4) - “Surely Allah loves those who fight in His way”
Sura (61:10-12) - “O ye who believe! Shall I lead you to a bargain that will save you from a grievous Penalty?- That ye believe in Allah and His Messenger, and that ye strive (your utmost) in the Cause of Allah, with your property and your persons: That will be best for you, if ye but knew! He will forgive you your sins, and admit you to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, and to beautiful mansions in Gardens of Eternity.” This verse was given in battle. It uses the Arabic word, Jihad.
Sura (66:9) - “O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey’s end.” The root word of “Jihad” is used again here. The context is clearly holy war, and the scope of violence is broadened to include “hypocrites,” those who call themselves Muslims but do not act as such.
Sura (8:15) - “O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey’s end.”
Sura (8:39) - “And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah”
Sura (8:57) - “If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember.”
Sura (8:59-60) - “And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah’s Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy.”
Sura (9:5) - “So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them.”
Sura (9:14) - “Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace…”
Sura (9:20) - “Those who believe, and have left their homes and striven with their wealth and their lives in Allah’s way are of much greater worth in Allah’s sight. These are they who are triumphant.” The “striving” spoken of here is Jihad.
Sura (9:29) - “Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”
Sura (9:30) - “And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!”
Sura (9:38-39) - “O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place.” This is a warning to those who refuse to fight, that they will be punished with Hell.
Sura (9:41) - “Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! That is best for you if ye but knew.”
Sura (9:73) - “O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination.”
Sura (9:88) - “But the Messenger, and those who believe with him, strive and fight with their wealth and their persons: for them are (all) good things: and it is they who will prosper.”
Sura (9:111) - “Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur’an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.”
Sura (9:123) - “O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness.”
Sura (21:44) - “We gave the good things of this life to these men and their fathers until the period grew long for them; See they not that We gradually reduce the land (in their control) from its outlying borders? Is it then they who will win?”
Sura (25:52) - “Therefore listen not to the Unbelievers, but strive against them with the utmost strenuousness, with the (Qur’an).” “Strive against” is Jihad, obviously not in the personal context. It’s also significant to point out that this is a Meccan verse.
Sura (47:4) - “So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners,”
Sura (47:35) - “Be not weary and faint-hearted, crying for peace, when ye should be uppermost (Shakir: “have the upper hand”) for Allah is with you,”
Sura (48:17) - “There is no blame for the blind, nor is there blame for the lame, nor is there blame for the sick (that they go not forth to war). And whoso obeyeth Allah and His messenger, He will make him enter Gardens underneath which rivers flow; and whoso turneth back, him will He punish with a painful doom.”
Sura (48:29) - “Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves”
Sura (61:4) - “Surely Allah loves those who fight in His way”
Sura (61:10-12) - “O ye who believe! Shall I lead you to a bargain that will save you from a grievous Penalty?- That ye believe in Allah and His Messenger, and that ye strive (your utmost) in the Cause of Allah, with your property and your persons: That will be best for you, if ye but knew! He will forgive you your sins, and admit you to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, and to beautiful mansions in Gardens of Eternity.” This verse was given in battle. It uses the Arabic word, Jihad.
Sura (66:9) - “O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey’s end.” The root word of “Jihad” is used again here. The context is clearly holy war, and the scope of violence is broadened to include “hypocrites,” those who call themselves Muslims but do not act as such.
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eichenb2
Guest
From the Hadith:
Bukhari (52:177) - Allah’s Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. “O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him.”
Bukhari (52:256) - The Prophet… was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, “They (i.e. women and children) are from them (i.e. pagans).” In this command, Muhammad establishes that it is permissible to kill non-combatants in the process of killing a perceived enemy. This provides justification for the many Islamic terror bombings.
Bukhari (52:220) - Allah’s Apostle said… ‘I have been made victorious with terror’
Abu Dawud (14:2526) - The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Three things are the roots of faith: to refrain from (killing) a person who utters, “There is no god but Allah” and not to declare him unbeliever whatever sin he commits, and not to excommunicate him from Islam for his any action; and jihad will be performed continuously since the day Allah sent me as a prophet until the day the last member of my community will fight with the Dajjal (Antichrist)
Abu Dawud (14:2527) - The Prophet said: Striving in the path of Allah (jihad) is incumbent on you along with every ruler, whether he is pious or impious
Muslim (1:33) - the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah
Bukhari (8:387) - Allah’s Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah
Muslim (1:149) - “Abu Dharr reported: I said: Messenger of Allah, which of the deeds is the best? He (the Holy Prophet) replied: Belief in Allah and Jihad in His cause…”
Muslim (20:4645) - “…He (the Messenger of Allah) did that and said: There is another act which elevates the position of a man in Paradise to a grade one hundred (higher), and the elevation between one grade and the other is equal to the height of the heaven from the earth. He (Abu Sa’id) said: What is that act? He replied: Jihad in the way of Allah! Jihad in the way of Allah!”
Muslim (20:4696) - “the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: ‘One who died but did not fight in the way of Allah nor did he express any desire (or determination) for Jihid died the death of a hypocrite.’”
Muslim (19:4321-4323) - Three separate hadith in which Muhammad shrugs over the news that innocent children were killed in a raid by his men against unbelievers. His response: “They are of them (meaning the enemy).”
Tabari 7:97 The morning after the murder of Ashraf, the Prophet declared, “Kill any Jew who falls under your power.” Ashraf was a poet, killed by Muhammad’s men because he insulted Islam. Here, Muhammad widens the scope of his orders to kill. An innocent Jewish businessman was then slain by his Muslim partner, merely for being non-Muslim.
Tabari 9:69 “Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us” The words of Muhammad, prophet of Islam.
Ibn Ishaq: 327 - “Allah said, ‘A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.’”
Ibn Ishaq: 990 - Lest anyone think that cutting off someone’s head while screaming ‘Allah Akbar!’ is a modern custom, here is an account of that very practice under Muhammad, who seems to approve.
Ibn Ishaq: 992 - “Fight everyone in the way of Allah and kill those who disbelieve in Allah.” Muhammad’s instructions to his men prior to a military raid.
Bukhari (52:177) - Allah’s Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. “O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him.”
Bukhari (52:256) - The Prophet… was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, “They (i.e. women and children) are from them (i.e. pagans).” In this command, Muhammad establishes that it is permissible to kill non-combatants in the process of killing a perceived enemy. This provides justification for the many Islamic terror bombings.
Bukhari (52:220) - Allah’s Apostle said… ‘I have been made victorious with terror’
Abu Dawud (14:2526) - The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Three things are the roots of faith: to refrain from (killing) a person who utters, “There is no god but Allah” and not to declare him unbeliever whatever sin he commits, and not to excommunicate him from Islam for his any action; and jihad will be performed continuously since the day Allah sent me as a prophet until the day the last member of my community will fight with the Dajjal (Antichrist)
Abu Dawud (14:2527) - The Prophet said: Striving in the path of Allah (jihad) is incumbent on you along with every ruler, whether he is pious or impious
Muslim (1:33) - the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah
Bukhari (8:387) - Allah’s Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah
Muslim (1:149) - “Abu Dharr reported: I said: Messenger of Allah, which of the deeds is the best? He (the Holy Prophet) replied: Belief in Allah and Jihad in His cause…”
Muslim (20:4645) - “…He (the Messenger of Allah) did that and said: There is another act which elevates the position of a man in Paradise to a grade one hundred (higher), and the elevation between one grade and the other is equal to the height of the heaven from the earth. He (Abu Sa’id) said: What is that act? He replied: Jihad in the way of Allah! Jihad in the way of Allah!”
Muslim (20:4696) - “the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: ‘One who died but did not fight in the way of Allah nor did he express any desire (or determination) for Jihid died the death of a hypocrite.’”
Muslim (19:4321-4323) - Three separate hadith in which Muhammad shrugs over the news that innocent children were killed in a raid by his men against unbelievers. His response: “They are of them (meaning the enemy).”
Tabari 7:97 The morning after the murder of Ashraf, the Prophet declared, “Kill any Jew who falls under your power.” Ashraf was a poet, killed by Muhammad’s men because he insulted Islam. Here, Muhammad widens the scope of his orders to kill. An innocent Jewish businessman was then slain by his Muslim partner, merely for being non-Muslim.
Tabari 9:69 “Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us” The words of Muhammad, prophet of Islam.
Ibn Ishaq: 327 - “Allah said, ‘A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.’”
Ibn Ishaq: 990 - Lest anyone think that cutting off someone’s head while screaming ‘Allah Akbar!’ is a modern custom, here is an account of that very practice under Muhammad, who seems to approve.
Ibn Ishaq: 992 - “Fight everyone in the way of Allah and kill those who disbelieve in Allah.” Muhammad’s instructions to his men prior to a military raid.
E
eichenb2
Guest
Please elaborate on the comparisions/contrasts between the Catholic (specifically Aquinas’) Just war concept with Muhammad’s Jihad. Please be specific on both counts, noting your sources as much as possible.
S
Sister_Amy
Guest
What a nice collection of verses you’ve got there!
I counted about 40. Forty verses from the Qur’an.
Out of how many did I say? Over 6000. I think there’s more than 6500 but can’t remember the exact number. Let’s just go with 6000.
40/6000 = .0067
What percentage is that? .6%
Less than 1% of the Qur’an talks about jihad!!
Thanks for proving that to my audience, I couldn’t have done it better.
I counted about 40. Forty verses from the Qur’an.
Out of how many did I say? Over 6000. I think there’s more than 6500 but can’t remember the exact number. Let’s just go with 6000.
40/6000 = .0067
What percentage is that? .6%
Less than 1% of the Qur’an talks about jihad!!
Thanks for proving that to my audience, I couldn’t have done it better.
S
Sister_Amy
Guest
Sounds like a great challenge. Can you point me to a good source on Just War Theory, then, so I can use a source which you consider authoritative?
Please elaborate on the comparisions/contrasts between the Catholic (specifically Aquinas’) Just war concept with Muhammad’s Jihad. Please be specific on both counts, noting your sources as much as possible.
E
eichenb2
Guest
What a nice collection of verses you’ve got there!
I counted about 40. Forty verses from the Qur’an.
Out of how many did I say? Over 6000. I think there’s more than 6500 but can’t remember the exact number. Let’s just go with 6000.
40/6000 = .0067
What percentage is that? .6%
Less than 1% of the Qur’an talks about jihad!!
Thanks for proving that to my audience, I couldn’t have done it better.
Tell that to the people in Mumbai who were slaughtered by Muslim terrorists or the people killed in the World Trade Center or the tourists in Bali who were butchered or Russian school children who were tortured and killed by Chechen (Muslim) fighters or etc…All of this was in the name of Islam in the eyes of the perpetrators.
E
eichenb2
Guest
St. Thomas Aquinas
The Summa Theologica, Part II (“On War”)
this would be a good start. War is NOT a means of spreading the doctrine of Christ. Whether you agree with it or not, War (physical jihad) has been, and is, used as means to spread Islam.
S
Sister_Amy
Guest
Muslims condemn the attacks in Mumbai, and grieve for the families who lost loved ones. Link One. Link Two.
Muslims condemn the 9/11 attacks. Link. (It’s a link to more links.)
Just because perpetrators have an evil view of Islam doesn’t make them right, or Islam evil.
E
eichenb2
Guest
With all due respect, your Shaykh does not speak for Islam. In fact, this is one of the biggest problems. Who does???
Your Shaykh, Tariqah, Madrasah, etc may condemn it. The problem is that the Islamic sources do NOT (Qur’an, Hadith, Ijmaa, Sira)
This may be inappropriate but I will say it anyway. If you are a convert to Islam, please reconsider Christianity. I know people will be shocked at this, but please consider the words of Christ.Matthew 11:28
“Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.”
تَعَالَوْا إِلَيَّ يَاجَمِيعَ الْمُتْعَبِينَ وَالرَّازِحِينَ تَحْتَ الأَحْمَالِ الثَّقِيلَةِ، وَأَنَا أُرِيحُكُمْ.
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Sister_Amy
Guest
Heh. Qur’an and Sunnah do speak for Islam. And my shaykh backs up his points with only that.
I don’t think there is anything you could do or say that would make me reconsider Christianity.
Noorun 'ala Noor. (Light upon light! Allah guides to His light whom He wills.)
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eichenb2
Guest
I gave you loads of evidence from the Qur’an and Sunnah. What would your Shaykh do if you said said to him that Christ was calling you to the Church (after all, He said His sheep hear His Voice and it is no coincidence that you are here in a Catholic forum)??? Unfortunately, it could turn out poorly for you.
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Sister_Amy
Guest
I think I’ve been here longer than you, and I can tell you that in the last 6 months or so, at least, my faith has done nothing but increase.
I post here because it’s an active and lively forum and keeps me on my toes.
I became a Muslim, you might be interested to know, because I prayed to God, and asked Him to guide me. Begged, more like it. I begged for guidance, literally on my knees. And now I am a Muslim.
Now, returning to your “evidence” from the Qur’an and Sunnah. As I pointed out, the verses you quoted account for less than 1% of the entire Qur’an. Do you think you might possibly be missing out on something else in the book?
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eichenb2
Guest
Btw, the police officers “got it” because we are in a society that allows freedom of religion and speech; unlike the prototype Islamic society. Think about it (this is directly to Christians), we would not even be allowed to have this discussion if Islam was the dominant faith. Now, Muslims will try to make a moral equivilance argument and say that there was no freedom of religion or speech at particular points in Christian history. This was in spite of Christianity and not because of. If someone insults Muhammad, he is to be killed. This is the consensus of the four schools of Sunni Islam.
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Sister_Amy
Guest
It didn’t have anything to do with freedom of religion, actually.
They are a police force that I personally respect very much, and have never had any bad experiences with. They are for the most part intelligent and open-minded, as well. I think that might have had something to do with it.
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eichenb2
Guest
They sound like good Christians.
- Status