Why are people dying by accidents everyday? Did God allow them to die?

[Latin]

I’ll just ask, are you arguing for universalism?

[Universalism / Apocatastasis is condemned by the Church, it is heresy

"the doctrine was formally condemned in the first of the famous anathemas pronounced at the Council of Constantinople in 543: Needless to say, it’s still condemned as heresy.

First I like to THANK YOU Steve-b for pointed out the Catholic Encyclopedia Apocatastasis.
Greek, apokatastasis ; Latin, restitutio in pristinum statum , restoration to the original condition.

I have to admit, I read it the first time, was hard to read some part of it because the tears came out from my eyes because of love and joy.

I tell you Steve-b, if I would be God the Universe would be restored to the original condition.

.
I believe the condemnation of the apokatastasis was the same mistake then the Church use to teach, there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church, now Re-formulated positively, it means, all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body.

In my opinion it is time the condemnation of the apokatastasis Re-formulated positively as follows, With God all things are possible even the restoration of the Universe to the original condition.

To tell the truth, I cannot understand: How can anyone believe that God will not restore the Universe to the original condition when in fact, God Designed/ Planned every events down to the minutest details and He orders/ directs all events within the universe?

He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.

.
Having been said the above, I’m not arguing for apokatastasis/ universalism, even from this day (10/01/19), I believe God will restore the Universe to the original condition.
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I’m arguing for, as God created us, we are His “little children” and His responsibility and His duty of care is to bring us up to be holy and saints and to take us all up to heaven.

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Catholic Soteriology proves many times over, God is doing His duty of care.

The Divine will is cause of all things that happens, as Augustine says (De Trin. iii, 1 seqq.). Therefore all things are subject to fate.
Every operation, therefore, of anything is traced back to Him as its cause. (Summa Contra Gentiles, Book III.)

.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence says;
His wisdom He so orders all events within the universe that the end for which it was created may be realized.

That end is that all creatures should manifest the glory of God, and in particular that man should glorify Him, recognizing in nature the work of His hand, serving Him in obedience and love, and thereby attaining to the full development of his nature and to eternal happiness in God.

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As our fates/ destiny is not in us but it is in God, do you believe Steve-b, as it is described above, the time will come when every member of the human race will have eternal happiness in God?
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God bless

 

[meltzerboy2]

Surely this is not meant to affirm that the free will of man in committing sin is powerful enough to actually CHANGE Gd’s plan for man’s immortality on earth? In other words, Gd must have had it in His plan that man would sin by his free will and thereby lose his earthly immortality; but, at the same time, gain the possibility of an eternal immortality by means of the redemptive grace of Jesus. Wouldn’t this be Gd’s more complete plan according to Catholic theology?

 

[Vico]

Surely this is not meant to affirm that the free will of man in committing sin is powerful enough to actually CHANGE Gd’s plan for man’s immortality on earth? In other words, Gd must have had it in His plan that man would sin by his free will and thereby lose his earthly immortality; but, at the same time, gain the possibility of an eternal immortality by means of the redemptive grace of Jesus. Wouldn’t this be Gd’s more complete plan according to Catholic theology?

Since mankind is given free will choice, evil is expected. In the Christian belief each rational soul is eternal, and all bodies are resurrected: some continue in eternal condemnation (the lake of, Revelation 20:14–15) and others in eternal glory (New Jerusalem, Revelation 21:1-5).

Matthew 25:34, 41, 46

Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
… Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
… And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

 

[CelticWarlord]

I will welcome death whenever it should come. Life in the human world merely prepares us for eternity. Some are ready to go much sooner than others.

 

[steve-b]

First I like to THANK YOU Steve-b for pointed out the Catholic Encyclopedia Apocatastasis.
Greek, apokatastasis ; Latin, restitutio in pristinum statum , restoration to the original condition.

I have to admit, I read it the first time, was hard to read some part of it because the tears came out from my eyes because of love and joy.

I tell you Steve-b, if I would be God the Universe would be restored to the original condition.

.
I believe the condemnation of the apokatastasis was the same mistake then the Church use to teach, there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church, now Re-formulated positively, it means, all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body.

In my opinion it is time the condemnation of the apokatastasis Re-formulated positively as follows, With God all things are possible even the restoration of the Universe to the original condition.

To tell the truth, I cannot understand: How can anyone believe that God will not restore the Universe to the original condition when in fact, God Designed/ Planned every events down to the minutest details and He orders/ directs all events within the universe?

steve-b:

See my point at the end

Latin:

Having been said the above, I’m not arguing for apokatastasis/ universalism, even from this day (10/01/19), I believe God will restore the Universe to the original condition.
.
I’m arguing for, as God created us, we are His “little children” and His responsibility and His duty of care is to bring us up to be holy and saints and to take us all up to heaven.

.
Catholic Soteriology proves many times over, God is doing His duty of care.

The Divine will is cause of all things that happens, as Augustine says (De Trin. iii, 1 seqq.). Therefore all things are subject to fate.
Every operation, therefore, of anything is traced back to Him as its cause. (Summa Contra Gentiles, Book III.)

[snip for space]

.
As our fates/ destiny is not in us but it is in God, do you believe Steve-b, as it is described above, the time will come when every member of the human race will have eternal happiness in God?

It seems like you still believe in all are saved in the end.

The last 4 things.

. Death
. Judgement
. Heaven
. Hell

Meaning At the end of each person’s life

There will be separation permanently, between those who are judged to go to heaven vs those who go to hell.

AND

since Jesus said the following, NOT me, that few are saved . I’m thinking how does that not scare the hell out of EVERYONE?

Also, Re: the last 4 things

There is no need for judgement if everyone goes to heaven when they die…right?
There is no need to scare anyone with Hell if no one goes to Hell…right?

The one who judges ALL, says that in the end, few are saved. I’ll say it again, THAT ought to scare the Hell out of everyone.

 

[meltzerboy2]

It scares me only in the sense that the one merciful, compassionate Gd, the Creator of Heaven and Earth, Who has the love to forgive us of all our sins if we make but the minimal effort to reform, would create humanity knowing in advance that His greatest creation, according to His own words, will, by its own free will, choose to spend eternity separated from Him and thus emotionally, if not physically, tortured. Such a Gd is not the One I worship and trust.

 

[steve-b]

It scares me only in the sense that the one merciful, compassionate Gd, the Creator of Heaven and Earth, who has the compassion to forgive us of all our sins even if we make but the minimal effort to reform, would create humanity knowing in advance that His greatest creation, according to His own words, will, by its own free will, choose to spend eternity separated from Him and thus emotionally, if not physically, tortured. Such a Gd is not the one I worship and trust.

When Jesus was asked what is the greatest commandment Jesus answered

How does one fulfill the first commandment? Jesus answered with a condition

IOW

Don’t screw up that Hierarchy of love

Love God first over everything, THEN love your neighbor as yourself

People who commit mortal sin, actually break both commands. AND if they die in that condition, they go to hell for eternity.

Disobedience to what God commands is how people screw up. And according to Jesus, who judges ALL, and says few are saved, that means most people die, in mortal sin.

 

[goout]

It scares me only in the sense that the one merciful, compassionate Gd, the Creator of Heaven and Earth, Who has the love to forgive us of all our sins if we make but the minimal effort to reform, would create humanity knowing in advance that His greatest creation, according to His own words, will, by its own free will, choose to spend eternity separated from Him and thus emotionally, if not physically, tortured. Such a Gd is not the One I worship and trust.

Those three bolded words are always problematic when discussing this issue. We call God into the dock, and demand of God “what did you know and when did you know it”, when in fact time is an irrelevancy for God. “When” is not a thing for God.
We like to apply “if, then…” statements to evaluate God’s love. That is a human standard that cannot comprehend the complete knowledge that is love.

God simply has omniscience outside of our consideration of time.

Analogies are difficult but try this:
every parent conceives a child knowing (at least in the back of the mind) that the child will have plenty of suffering and eventually die. Yet seeing this whole thing, we still conceive children out of love. Because love is a greater good than all the other considerations and love is creative at all costs. And the stuff we don’t like should be put into perspective by looking at the whole.

 

[goout]

meltzerboy2:

It scares me only in the sense that the one merciful, compassionate Gd, the Creator of Heaven and Earth, who has the compassion to forgive us of all our sins even if we make but the minimal effort to reform, would create humanity knowing in advance that His greatest creation, according to His own words, will, by its own free will, choose to spend eternity separated from Him and thus emotionally, if not physically, tortured. Such a Gd is not the one I worship and trust.

according to Jesus, who judges ALL, and says few are saved, that means most people die, in mortal sin.

And the passage does not necessarily have to be taken in that context.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

meltzerboy2:

It scares me only in the sense that the one merciful, compassionate Gd, the Creator of Heaven and Earth, who has the compassion to forgive us of all our sins even if we make but the minimal effort to reform, would create humanity knowing in advance that His greatest creation, according to His own words, will, by its own free will, choose to spend eternity separated from Him and thus emotionally, if not physically, tortured. Such a Gd is not the one I worship and trust.

according to Jesus, who judges ALL, and says few are saved, that means most people die, in mortal sin.

And the passage does not necessarily have to be taken in that context.

if sin is not the context of salvation, what is it you’re describing?

 

[goout]

goout:

steve-b:

meltzerboy2:

It scares me only in the sense that the one merciful, compassionate Gd, the Creator of Heaven and Earth, who has the compassion to forgive us of all our sins even if we make but the minimal effort to reform, would create humanity knowing in advance that His greatest creation, according to His own words, will, by its own free will, choose to spend eternity separated from Him and thus emotionally, if not physically, tortured. Such a Gd is not the one I worship and trust.

according to Jesus, who judges ALL, and says few are saved, that means most people die, in mortal sin.

And the passage does not necessarily have to be taken in that context.

if sin is not the context of salvation, what is it you’re describing?

I’m just noting that the Church definitively does NOT teach that most, or many, or lots, or even Hitler himself, is in hell.
So it’s good to look beyond the literalist reading of the passage that looks for some quantity of people that are dead in mortal sin.

The Church does not canonize the damned.

 

[meltzerboy2]

I would argue that loving one’s neighbor (including enemy) is in effect the SAME as loving Gd. I don’t see a first and second commandment here. Even Jesus said something such as what we do “for the least of these” is equivalent to what we do for Him. Further, the love we have for Gd is revealed only by faith in action, not faith alone without love. Jesus also spoke on this. Therefore, I conclude that the two greatest commandments (which Hillel the Elder, a generation before Jesus, stated is the essence of the whole Law) are inextricably linked and cannot be separated.

 

[steve-b]

I’m just noting that the Church definitively does NOT teach that most, or many, or lots, or even Hitler himself, is in hell.

That’s because the Church isn’t in the position of listing the lost after the fact..

goout:

The Church does not canonize the damned.

Well said.

What we know then is, we have canonized saints, who obviously are counted in with the “few” who are the saved.

Meaning

the “many” as in everyone ELSE, THEY are NOT saved… according to Jesus

 

[JamalChristophr]

I know some very devout people, too, that, or course, will be glad to be in heaven, yet there is a strong aversion to death, wanting to hold on as long as possible. I guess that is very normal for many Catholics.

 

[steve-b]

I would argue that loving one’s neighbor (including enemy) is in effect the SAME as loving Gd.

With some qualification, (explained next) No disagreement there.

All I’m saying, one THINKS they love their neighbor, and in effect is NOT loving God by their act.

For example.

Voting for abortion. One can say, ( a very popular and indifferent statement we hear all the time) I wouldn’t approve that act myself, but I won’t stop my neighbor from doing that. THAT statement breaks both commandments. By NOT caring for one’s neighbor as yourself, namely you know abortion is a huge offense against love of BOTH God and neighbor, but won’t do anything to protect the unborn, one breaks both commands.

meltzerboy2:

I don’t see a first and second commandment here. Even Jesus said something such as what we do “for the least of these” is equivalent to what we do for Him.

THERE IS A HIERARCHY OF LOVE BETWEEN THE FIRST AND SECOND COMMAND.

In my example, who in the example is the "least’ ? The unborn baby in the womb…right? Deliberately taking that life, effects only the baby as those 2 commands describe?

meltzerboy2:

Further, the love we have for Gd is revealed only by faith in action, not faith alone without love. Jesus also spoke on this. Therefore, I conclude that the two greatest commandments (which Hillel the Elder, a generation before Jesus, stated is the essence of the whole Law) are inextricably linked and cannot be separated.

They can’t be separated, we agree. That doesn’t mean that the 1st command is subordinate to the 2nd.

 

[Latin]

Since Jesus said the following, NOT me, that few are saved . I’m thinking how does that not scare the hell out of EVERYONE

There is no need for judgement if everyone goes to heaven when they die…right?

There is no need to scare anyone with Hell if no one goes to Hell…right?

The one who judges ALL, says that in the end, few are saved. I’ll say it again, THAT ought to scare the Hell out of everyone.

Even if everyone saved we still need judgment, the judgment of our supernatural works/ works of live because according to the outcome of the judgment of our works, God determines our glories and positions in heaven.

.
We all should have a reverent healthy fear of God, but we don’t have to fear of hell because our salvation is God’s business and our business is to do the works of Jesus.

.
Jonah 3:4; Jonah began by going a day’s journey into the city, proclaiming, "Forty more days and Nineveh will be overthrown.

For the reason to pay attention God promised distraction and hell to all Ninevites.

Despite of all threats and promises of distractions and hell, God provided His Universal Salvation and saved all Ninevites:

Jonah 4:11; And should I not have concern for the great city of Nineveh, in which there are more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left, and also many animals?

God promised destruction and hell to all Ninevites, and God provided Universal Salvation to the Ninevites.

The same principle applies to the warnings and promises of hell in the New Testament.

.
Yes I believe all are saved at the end because our Heavenly Father loves us and His duty of care to save us.
This is not official teaching yet even more and more Catholics believe it and teach it.

.
The whole Catholic Church praying for (1058) that God to save everyone. – We all should believe what we are praying for, I believe it.

Because our fates/ destiny is not in us but it is in God, I believe God loves all of us and saves all of us.

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According to your posts Steve-b you don’t believe that at the end everyone saved.

So, What do you believe Steve-b, according to official teachings, who are those who are end up in heaven?

Who has chosen us to be saved from all eternity?
.
Thank you for your answer in advance.
.
God bless

 

[CelticWarlord]

I guess that is very normal for many Catholics.

I agree. As long as we’re human there will remain a small element of uncertainty as to what exactly lies beyond the here and now. I’d say the feelings are not limited to Catholics.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Since Jesus said the following, NOT me, that few are saved . I’m thinking how does that not scare the hell out of EVERYONE

There is no need for judgement if everyone goes to heaven when they die…right?

There is no need to scare anyone with Hell if no one goes to Hell…right?

The one who judges ALL, says that in the end, few are saved. I’ll say it again, THAT ought to scare the Hell out of everyone.

Even if everyone saved we still need judgment, the judgment of our supernatural works/ works of live because according to the outcome of the judgment of our works, God determines our glories and positions in heaven.

we don’t have to fear of hell because our salvation is God’s business and our business is to do the works of Jesus.

Fear of hell should be a motivator.

Latin:

God promised destruction and hell to all Ninevites, and God provided **Universal Salvation to the Ninevites.

the same principle applies to the warnings and promises of hell in the New Testament.

Latin,

The ninevites repented. THAT’S why they were saved.

Jesus looking forward in time, KNOWS who is saved and not saved. He knows who will repent and who won’t, at death. When He says few are saved, that means few repented. Few lived the life of faith. Few followed His commands., few persevered … TO THE END.

Latin:

Yes I believe all are saved at the end because our Heavenly Father loves us and His duty of care to save us.
This is not official teaching yet even more and more Catholics believe it and teach it.

Latin,

we can’t know nor teach with “utter certitude” that everyone is going to be saved. That would be wreckless presumption, AND it would contradict what Jesus said.

Latin:

According to your posts Steve-b you don’t believe that at the end everyone saved.

True. Because Jesus directly said that’s not true.

Latin:

So, What do you believe Steve-b, according to official teachings, who are those who are end up in heaven?

Who has chosen us to be saved from all eternity?
.
Thank you for your answer in advance.
.
God bless

The Church teaches

All are/will be saved = apocatastasis / apokatastasis is a heresy

Also

Please read this article from Msgr Chas Pope Re: 8 modern errors floating around

 

[Latin]

Please read this article from Msgr Chas Pope Re: 8 modern errors floating around

Thank you Steve-b for your suggestion to read the article of Msgr. Chas Pope.

I closely studying his article and I also closely studying his other three articles he is referring to, I’m not yet finished the study, so yet I cannot really comment on them.

.
A quote from an article of Msgr. Chas Pope:

Bottom line: either God is love and we are free to choose Him or not in our own act of love, or God is a slave driver and no matter what we go to His Heaven and live with Him forever.

In other words, freedom means choice and choice permits us to say “no” to God. Therefore, there is Hell. End quote.
.
Seems to me Msgr. Chas Pope’s theology is built on the above of his statement “Bottom line.”
.
It is no question, we have the free will and we have the power/ potency to say “no” to God at any time.

The crux of the matter is; Do we choose to say “no” to God when God wills that we freely say “yes” to Him?

.
So, according to Msgr. Chas Pope: The reason is hell because we freely say “no” when God wills we freely say “yes.”
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Logically follows, if with God’s aide of efficacious graces we always freely say “yes” to God when God wills that we freely say “yes” then there is no hell for the human race. – Plain and simple.
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Phil.2:13; “For it is God who works in you BOTH to WILL and to ACT for His good pleasure.”

(Thomas Aquinas, S. Th.II/II 4, 4 ad 3). God effects everything, the willing and the achievement. …

Every operation, therefore, of anything is traced back to Him as its cause. (Summa Contra Gentiles, Book III.)

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“Bottom line.” + Phil.2:13; 2022; etc. = There is no hell for the human race.

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I believe Steve-b, Msgr. Chas Pope’s logic is correct, he only overlooked the Theological Fact; God’s will is immutable and we all always freely cooperate with the will of God.

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2022 The divine initiative in the work of grace PRECEDES, PREPARES, and ELICITS the free response of man.

The Divine will is cause of all things that happens, as Augustine says (De Trin. iii, 1 seqq.). Therefore all things are subject to fate.

God’s will is immutable; therefore, God’s will is always accomplished.

.
Do you believe Steve-b, if we follow Msgr. Chas Pope’s logic and we always freely say “yes” to God when God wills that we freely say “yes” then there is no hell for the human race?

Thank you for your answer in advance.
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All human will be saved and apocatastasis is NOT THE SAME.

All human will be saved is NOT HERESY in fact the whole Catholic Church praying for it (1058).
.
God bless

 

[steve-b]

All human will be saved and apocatastasis is NOT THE SAME.

All human will be saved is NOT HERESY in fact the whole Catholic Church praying for it (1058).
.
God bless

On the contrary

From the link I gave you

“The doctrine of apokatastasis viewed as a belief in a universal salvation is found among the Anabaptists, the Moravian Brethren, the Christadelphians, among rationalistic Protestants, and finally among the professed Universalists.”

AND

"the doctrine was formally condemned in the first of the famous anathemas pronounced at the Council of Constantinople in 543: Ei tis ten teratode apokatastasis presbeuei anathema esto [See, also, Justinian, Liber adversus Originem, anathemas 7 and 9.] The doctrine was thenceforth looked on as heterodox by the Church. "

From Apocatastasis

BTW heterodox and heresy is a distinction without a difference Heterodox | Definition of Heterodox by Merriam-Webster

As to your question you asked, I won’t play what ifs, on this, as if Jesus can be second guessed on what He clearly said