Why are people leaving the church

[fix]

Let us try to put some of this into historical perspective; first, A- People leaving the church; and second B; the ‘Vatican document’ with the corolary that apparently it has ‘caused’ at least one person to leave the church.

A: Historically speaking, people have ‘left the church’ since Judas. Even in late medieval to modern times, just think of the protestant explosion. Those protestants didn’t ‘grow like Topsy’; they ‘left the church’–so much so that to take an example England went from being a Catholic country to a Protestant one, and France from a Catholic country solus to one with a sizeable protestant (Hugenot) minority, etc. For that FIRST generation at least, the way that one ‘got’ protestants was from the protestants leaving the Catholic Church.

That being said, any ‘mass exodus’ in 2006 absolutely pales in comparison.

Also it must be said that while people coming INTO the church are not coming in numbers or rates seen in other centuries, they are STILL coming in and indeed, considering the huge population of the world today, they are coming in quite well, especially in comparison to other Christian groups.

Now to point B.
There have been many, many scandals in Christianity. Jesus warned us about them. I wonder what St. Michael would have done in Borgian Italy, or under Savonarola in Spain, or heaven forbid in Elizabeth I’s England/Ireland, Knox’s Scotland, Calvin’s Switzerland, or Latin American in the 19th century, Mexico in the 1920s. . . There is a lot of scandal in ALL Christianity… and in atheistic societies, in Buddhist societies, Hindu, animist, ‘neo’ Wicca, you name it.

Point is: For 2000 years we have had the Catholic Church. Nobody denies that certain people in the church have done wrong. But the TEACHING on faith and morals has never foundered. I’ve read the document–indeed, I read it the LAST time it surfaced back in 2005. This is not NEWS. It’s a vile attempt to ‘take down’ the Catholic Church by positing that the internal policies regarding a SACRAMENT which itself must involve secrecy, and particularly a policy from over 40 years ago, BECAUSE it does not IN THEIR EYES ‘conform’ with the current ‘popular’ judgment on an UNRELATED though tangential issue, somehow ‘proves’ that the Catholic Church teaches as FUNDAMENTAL DOCTRINE the ABUSE OF CHILDREN. And that ‘higher ups’ somehow DELIBERATELY chose to FOSTER abuse just to ‘save themselves’. Deliberately ignoring, of course, that in 1962, back when people were not falling all over themselves on Springer to tell what sins they had PROUDLY committed, or to scream for vengeance over both real AND imagined sins had been done TO them, even speaking of sins was something that people DID NOT WANT TO DO. This document was not for the protection of PRIESTS from being punished; it was for the protection of the INNOCENT who would be victimized by having what was done to them BROUGHT OUT IN PUBLIC.

Now you may be part of the population that ‘wants to know’ EVERYTHING, every single detail, 24/7, and finds any idea of keeping ANYTHING private to be signs of a conspiracy theory or a ‘repressed personality’. The point is, people in 1962 would have found the current fixation on the ‘right to know’ and the near total lack of privacy, not to mention the lack of a sense of sin and huge advancements in shameless behavior in contemporary society, to be HORRIFYING.

And so people are once again making the mistake of judging a FAITH, not by what it teaches, not by the PERSON who instituted it, but by what kind of ‘sound bite’ it makes or how ‘relevent’ it is to a CONTEMPORARY ‘teaching’.

One wonders, yes one does. What if we held the medical community responsible, for example, for their teachings back in say 1975, for example–back when the MEDICAL COMMUNITY not only believed but PRACTICED their informed opinion that pedophilia could be TREATED AND CURED.

But we don’t hear of THIS, because it wouldn’t ‘sell’. It wouldn’t demonize the church–the voice of reason and eternal teaching rather than emotion and what is ‘happening’, new, and ‘exciting’.

Very good post and I would add if much of the “old” directives from the Vatican were followed more assiduously we would not be talking about this today.

 

[ComradeAndrei]

To Tantum Ergo’s post, Amen.

The Church is not subject to the State, nor do I see what kind of grave injustice the Church committed by trying to handle any problems that come up w/in it in its own way. No need to drag people through the mud, especially the victims if there is no need to.

I really doubt that any bishop purposely moved pedophile priests around in order to foster their sick pleasures, to get them fresh conquests, so to say. The psychological community did think that such problems could be solved. The Church itself certainly does nothing to condone any sort of sin-least of all sins against children or sacriledge.

It is easy to try to throw mud at the Church. Everyone who wants to justify their own infidelity to Religion, morals, societal expectations etc. does so.

Also, it can be dangerous to have the State as a mediator in religious matters. I don’t want a secular State involved in the Church any more than is absolutely necessary.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

The oath you take is to uphold and defend the constitution of the United States of America…

Correct. And it also includes, “…that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.”

There is no threat of death.

Yes. there is, if I fail to obey my oath, that is fail to obey the officers appointed over me, according to the regulations and Uniform Code of Military Justice, I may incur the death penalty in accord with the UCMJ.

UCMJ Article 106(a) Espionage, prescribes, for example, the death penalty.

Even for those rather limited in reasoning capacity, it should be clear that a violation of the military oath of office can indeed result in the death penalty. Either the Marines failed to properly train you on the UCMJ or you simply failed to pay attention.

Every time someone is indoctrinated into a different compartment of classified information, they must sign a form acknowledging the fact that their deliberate unauthorized disclosure can result in the death penalty…

Someone with no clearance and involved in espionage can be sentenced to death.

Yes, and those with a clearance who have access to classified information are even more responsible to safeguard that information, and are also subject to the death penalty.

The death penalty for espionage is simply a punishment for breaking the law.

Exactly, a law I swore to obey in my oath of office.

Does one being born in America take an oath to not murder someone under penalty of death…

He does if he joins the military (cf. UCMJ article 118), which was my example.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

… This document was not for the protection of PRIESTS from being punished; it was for the protection of the INNOCENT who would be victimized by having what was done to them BROUGHT OUT IN PUBLIC.

Amen!

Since Watergate, I’ve been looking for another country to live in, one without scandal in the highest level of government, one without sinful leaders, but I haven’t yet found it.

 

[Saint_Michael]

Simply put, people are leaving the Church because the fruits it produces are not there. Sexual abuse by clergy, my parish of 4,000 has no RCIA program, Bible studies, devotions nothing, even though the Church has been paid off for probably 40 years, authoritarian institution that doesn’t seem to care what the laity think or their objections are at all. Christian societies need a second evangelization, Europe and America are near Godless.

If the Church produces the fruit people will flock to it, until then you’ll continue to have 80% of northeast Catholics being pro-abortion,a nd only 2% using NFP. Let’s face it most Catholics are not in line with the Magesterium and are defacto Protestants anyway. I read only 20 something percent believe in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

 

[Pug]

I read only 20 something percent believe in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

This requires you show me a decent study as documentation. The studies I’ve seen give a much higher figure, though not as high as one would like.

 

[corvidae]

And what would your advice be St. Michael, excommunicate them all.

If they do not accept the dogmas of the church, then there is no need to, they have excommunicated themselves.

As far as RCIA goes, that sounds like a problem with the members of your church, very few come to the Catholic faith through a priests intervention.

What would you recommend the church do to change these things? Say we will kick you out if someone has heard that you do not believe what we do? That is not the way any church works.

Again, I ask, with all these problems, how do we fix them.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

This requires you show me a decent study as documentation. The studies I’ve seen give a much higher figure, though not as high as one would like.

And then usually those are not studies but polls and polls are very subjective depending on how the question is answered and it is colored by those who would chose to answer a poll as opposed to those who do not answer polls.

All a poll really tells you is what those who answered it think.

If polls were right on then President Bush would not be our president as every poll just before the last election had Kerry winning.

 

[Saint_Michael]

This requires you show me a decent study as documentation. The studies I’ve seen give a much higher figure, though not as high as one would like.

What you don’t have google?

Seriously I mean just type into google the same as I just did to double check this stuff, it’s only 30% believe in the Catholci teaching onthe Eucharist:

However, according to an alarming 1992 Gallup poll, the majority of Catholics are confused in their beliefs about Christ’s presence in the Eucharist:

30% believe they are really and truly receiving the body, blood, soul and divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ under the appearance of bread and wine.

29% believe they are receiving bread and wine that symbolize the body and blood of Jesus.

10% believe they receive bread and wine in which Jesus is also present.

24% believe they are receiving what has become Christ’s body and blood because of their personal belief.

Any well-informed Catholic will recognize that only the first option, chosen by the 30 percent, represents true Catholic teaching. The other options represent various Protestant beliefs. In other words, nearly **70 percent of all Catholics in this country hold erroneous beliefs about Christ’s presence in the Eucharist. **

catholicapologetics.com/ba3.htm

70% OF NOVUS ORDO CATHOLICS NOW HOLD AN HERETICAL BELIEF IN THE HOLY EUCHARIST.

Specifically,

1) 29% of Novus Ordo Catholics believe that when receiving Holy

Communion, they are receiving bread and wine, which symbolize the spirit and
teachings of Jesus Christ, and in so doing are expressing their attachment to
His Person and words. This is the heresy of Protestant John Zwingli, who
taught the false doctrine that the Mass is merely a symbolic commemoration of
Christ’s death.

2) 24% of Novus Ordo Catholics believe that when receiving Holy

Communion, they are receiving the Body and Blood of Christ, which has become
that because of their personal belief. This is the heresy of Protestant John
Calvin, who taught the false doctrine that the faith of the recipient
transforms the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ.

3) 10% of Novus Ordo Catholics believe that when receiving Holy

Communion, they are receiving bread and wine, in which Jesus Christ is really
and truly present. This is the heresy of Protestant Martin Luther, who taugh
the false doctrine known as “consubstantiation,” that the Body and Blood of
Christ coexist with the elements of bread and wine during the Eucharist.

4) 8% of Novus Ordo Catholics hold some other non-Catholic belief.

5) Only 30% of Novus Ordo Catholics believe that they are really and

truly receiving the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ
under the appearance of Bread and Wine. This has always been the Church’s
dogma regarding the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist.

traditio.com/tradlib/polls.txt

I mean seriously 70% of Catholics don’t ascribe to the Church teachings on the Eucharist, THE CENTRAL TEACHING OF CATHOLICISM!!! I can hoenstly say I didn’t know the Churches teaching on the Real Presence until I was in my 20’s, and I received secondary Catholci education until my confirmation, it was NEVER taught to me. And people are shocked that faithful practicing Catholics are becoming harder and harder to find?

 

[Caesar]

Nice work St. Michael, you found out how to look up biased information in a Sedevacantist site.

 

[Saint_Michael]

Nice work St. Michael, you found out how to look up biased information in a Sedevacantist site.

Well it was on request, I didn’t want to do it…

Can you actualy argue against the statistics? (which are from a gallup poll). Or can you only resort to ad hominem attacks, and patronizing emoticons?

FYI the first site isn’t a Sedevantist site, it was from a pro-Rome Catholic site, I gave two references.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Well it was on request, I didn’t want to do it…

Can you actualy argue against the statistics? (which are from a gallup poll). Or can you only resort to ad hominem attacks, and patronizing emoticons?

FYI the first site isn’t a Sedevantist site, it was from a pro-Rome Catholic site, I gave two references.

It is not statistics unless they actually asked the question of every single Catholic out there.

I just completed an impromptu poll myself here in the house.

Here are my results.

100% OF NOVUS ORDO CATHOLICS DO NOT HOLD AN HERETICAL BELIEF IN THE HOLY EUCHARIST.

Specifically,

1. 0% of Novus Ordo Catholics believe that when receiving Holy Communion, they are receiving bread and wine, which symbolize the spirit and teachings of Jesus Christ, and in so doing are expressing their attachment to His Person and words. This is the heresy of Protestant John Zwingli, who taught the false doctrine that the Mass is merely a symbolic commemoration of Christ’s death.
2. 0% of Novus Ordo Catholics believe that when receiving Holy Communion, they are receiving the Body and Blood of Christ, which has become that because of their personal belief. This is the heresy of Protestant John Calvin, who taught the false doctrine that the faith of the recipient transforms the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ.
3. 0% of Novus Ordo Catholics believe that when receiving Holy Communion, they are receiving bread and wine, in which Jesus Christ is really and truly present. This is the heresy of Protestant Martin Luther, who taugh the false doctrine known as “consubstantiation,” that the Body and Blood of Christ coexist with the elements of bread and wine during the Eucharist.
4. 0% of Novus Ordo Catholics hold some other non-Catholic belief.
5. Only 100% of Novus Ordo Catholics believe that they are really and truly receiving the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ under the appearance of Bread and Wine. This has always been the Church’s dogma regarding the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist.

Other problem wrong with your poll is that when you give poll results you must include the number of people polled, the number of respondants (that is the number of people who where polled who actually took the time to answer), and the margin of error.

And lastly, and this is basic statistics, when you report a poll the total percentage must total 100%, like my impromptu poll does (and to cut out your argument, 12 people were polled, 12 responded and the margin of error is, who knows as I am not going to get into all that crud) whereas your poll adds up to 101% so that tells me right off the bat it is crud and the first one you reference, which is a different poll as the numbers are different totals to 93%, more crud.

Oh and one further thing that shows the obvious bias, there is no such thing as a Novus Ordo Catholic, there are only Catholics, unless you differentiae by particular Churches then you would have to say Latin (or Roman) Catholics in this case.

As Mark Twain said, “There are lies, damn lies, and statistics.”

 

[Saint_Michael]

It is not statistics unless they actually asked the question of every single Catholic out there.

That doesn’t make any sense…Not a poll unless you ask every Catholic?

No it was a few thousand Catholics I believe, much better sample size than your poll.

Anyway if you have issue with it, take it up with the creator of the gallup poll, I was asked for sources and I gave them, if you call them a lie or a damned lie I couldn’t care less. I gave TWO resources one from a Catholic apologetics web site oen from a Sedavancists, both with the same results, do what you will with the info.

 

[Michael_Francis]

Having drifted away from it’s original topic, this thread is now closed.