Why are people mormon considering it is obvioulsy fabricated?

[Dee_Dee_King]

Dee Dee King, So go ahead and scientifically prove and demonstrate that the eucharist becomes what your religion says that it becomes. If you want a debate about that, then the debate will start, and it will be as vigorous as you want it to be.

first off, the catholic church never claims that the accidents of the eucharist change, just the substance. in other words, physical appearance and properties of the bread and wine remain while the essence become the glorified body and blood of our Lord. we know from the bible that apart from the transfiguration, Jesus looked totally human, just as the eucharist looks like bread and wine. and just like the transfiguration, there are exceptions. you can read about mircales involving the eucharist where it manifests its divine nature.

i like how you avoid the problem of the BOA and the lies and fantasies in the BOM. we don’t have lies of fantasies in the catholic church.

 

[Eliza10]

The “ignore” feature works as you have described as skipping posts. The post is still there, numbered in sequence, but the program does not display text of the post. You have the option of viewing it or removing the name you have on ignore from the ignore list. It can make some threads a little difficult to follow but you can usually get the gist of things. I’ve just found that many of these controversies are endless and life is too short to tediously repeat same thing over and over to the same posters, many of whom appear to be rather single-minded in their approach as well as highly resistant to any opinion other than their own. I have been accused of being “afraid” of such posters, but that’s not the case at all. I am not afraid, I am merely unwilling to spend any time or resources on endless, pointless argument and yet that appears to be the only thing that some posters are interested in. As a result, after a while, most end up on my “ignore” list.

In addition, as you have no doubt noted, disagreement with the doctrines of the Mormon faith will often elicit hostility from its adherents, those who are either unable or unwilling to distinguish disagreement about doctrine from intolerance of people. Such persons often fall into the “single-minded in their approach as well as highly resistant to any opinion other than their own” category, so “discussion” with such persons is often an exercise in futility.

That quote of Fr. Rutler’s in my signature has many applications both within this forum as well as outside of it. For example, it has a very definite application to politics. … And yet is is often just as pointless to have a discussion about a political issue with such persons as it is to have a discussion about religious doctrine with some posters to this forum. Many people who are uninformed, yet highly opinionated, about a political issue will cling tenaciously to that opinion regardless of the facts. It can be rather frustrating to try to discuss anything with them…

…the tendency of some people & groups to shout down those with whom they disagree. Lacking information & a sound basis for dialog, they instead resort to noise and sometimes violence to drown out/marginalize the opposition. Unfortunately we can see examples of such behavior on TV on a regular basis. .

Thanks for explaining that. I have spent a few days posting here on Non-Cath forum discussing mostly Mormonism out of a need to perhaps say things clearly enough to be understood. But nothing is understood or validated and I am seeing it as a fruitless endeavor for reasons you have well-explained here. Thanks for explaining about the “ignore” feature. I have a couple more Q’s but will PM you.

 

[why_me]

Sorry, but that isnt correct

You are wrong. I never hid my understandings and beliefs. However, it was rather recently that I put it permanently in my posts.

 

[why_me]

why me;5559796:

I don’t see you supporting your views with Catholic saints??? Just a thought but they would not be “Catholic Saints” if they didn’t believe Catholic dogma:shrug:

These catholics showed their faith through their works. And that is important. They did not go around bashing other faiths but reached out to other people in other faiths and showed the characteristics of christ in their works. And that is the point.

 

[Eliza10]

WhyMe, are you a he or a she?

 

[why_me]

I do see it as “speaking the truth”. Obviously you see it differently. She persists in seeing things wrong with Mormonism, you persist in seeing things right with Mormonism. I still say she is speaking the truth.

Rebecca is okay but she doesn’t trust a single mormon and she shows her disdain in her posts. I am afraid that she is not catholic when she behaves so. We should overcome our hate and show love even to people who we disdain or don’t trust.

 

[why_me]

WhyMe, are you a he or a she?

A he. :tiphat:

 

[why_me]

I

Last point, this is the non Catholic religions section of a Catholic Forum. You should expect Catholics, especially the Catholics on this forum who tend to know their faith, to stand up for Catholic doctrine. .

In Christ,
Michael

Since no one is attacking catholic doctrine there is no reason to stand up for it. However, mormons are here defending their faith against attacks and so they are standing up for their faith. You just have to read the title of this thread to see what I mean.

 

[ParkerD]

first off, the catholic church never claims that the accidents of the eucharist change, just the substance. in other words, physical appearance and properties of the bread and wine remain while the essence become the glorified body and blood of our Lord. we know from the bible that apart from the transfiguration, Jesus looked totally human, just as the eucharist looks like bread and wine. and just like the transfiguration, there are exceptions. you can read about mircales involving the eucharist where it manifests its divine nature.

i like how you avoid the problem of the BOA and the lies and fantasies in the BOM. we don’t have lies of fantasies in the catholic church.

Dee Dee,
I have no problem with the Book of Abraham or with the Book of Mormon or with the Bible.
You wanted vigorous–I’ll give you vigorous. Define “essence”. Define “divine nature.” Use a scientific definition, as you made that your premise from the get-go. Prove the “miracles” you asserted, scientifically.

While you’re at it, demonstrate scientifically how three “Separate Persons” scientifically can be demonstrated to be absolutely “One Being.”

 

[PaulDupre]

The thing that makes Mormons the way they are is their religion, Paul.

Most of the worst SOBs I’ve ever known have been Mormons. Did Mormonism make them SOBs? I doubt it.

When we criticize LDS beliefs and teachings, we are not implying that the people who believe them are somehow inferior humans (as Brigham Young said of Christians) or evil people. But Mormons really do think that non-Mormons are inferior, evil and somehow sub-human. Just listen to the way they denegrate and vilify “gentiles” when talking amongst themselves. You know it’s true. I heard it every day of the 11 years I was LDS. It is one of the things that started me looking at Mormonism objectively (along with all the lies they preached about Catholics).

So don’t project your bad habits onto the rest of us. We really know the difference between Mormons and Mormonism.

 

[Dee_Dee_King]

I have no problem with the Book of Abraham or with the Book of Mormon or with the Bible.
You wanted vigorous–I’ll give you vigorous. Define “essence”. Define “divine nature.” Use a scientific definition, as you made that your premise from the get-go. Prove the “miracles” you asserted, scientifically.

science will not be able to directly detect the divine essence of the eucharist just like science would not be able to detect the divine essence of Jesus. essences/substances are metaphysical realties, not physical ones. just like science can’t directly prove or disprove the existence of mathematics.

science can tell us the BOM is false because aboriginal peoples of the americas are not decedents of jews but are genetically east asians who came across the land bridge around 10,000 years ago. archeology can tell us jews did not come to america 1000s of years ago by crossing the pacific and that the BOA was a forgery of an egyptian book of the dead from the 2nd or 1st century.

and common sence tells us that joe smith was a liar and deceiver.

 

[dianaiad]

Obviously there are exceptions, as I am not Mormon and will never be converting, and yet I have Mormon friends, some going back over 40 years. But many people posting to this forum have also posted similar “shunning” experiences, so the fact that it is very common is well known. It is not official Mormon policy so when a Mormon asserts that it “never” happens, they may be referring to official policy.

It is not supposed to happen. It is very much against official policy. I can, however, understand the very real reactions of family and friends who feel betrayed when someone they love abandons something that is so integral to their lives and their family and community culture. Not to mention that if the vast majority of one’s social organization and network revolves around the church (as a Mormon’s usually is) then the question isn’t whether the Mormons are doing the shunning, but whether the one who left is. It shouldn’t happen, but it does.

Why in the world would the one who leaves expect the ones who stayed behind to leave too? In many cases, they have to in order to associate with the guy who left, because the guy who left refuses to attend the meetings, parties, events and classes that make up Mormon life.

It is official Mormon teaching that we are to fellowship those who leave; excommunicated members are invited to attend church and church events; to come back. The ex communicant sometimes makes that very difficult, though. Sometimes the chip on the shoulder looks more like a California Sequoia.

On the other hand, official CATHOLIC policy (though no longer imposed, it is still very much on the books) is that anybody who talks to, exchanges letters with, prays with, honors, engages in business or social relations or, eats with an excommunicated Catholic is subject to excommunication himself. An excommunicated Catholic who enters a Catholic church is putting the priests who knowingly allow him in at risk for excommunication. (see…, about half way down the page, hereCivilia Jura.)

It has been my experience (though I have seen ‘shunning’ by Mormon families) that shunning is far more likely to happen to people who convert TO Mormonism from another faith–their families are far more likely to disassociate and shun than we are.

True, that’s subjective and annecdotal, but when I look at official written church policies, I find that ‘shunning’ is practiced far more often by non-Mormon faiths than by Mormons, and it is never advocated officially by the CoJCoLDS. Quite the opposite.

The “ignore” feature works as you have described as skipping posts. The post is still there, numbered in sequence, but the program does not display text of the post. You have the option of viewing it or removing the name you have on ignore from the ignore list. It can make some threads a little difficult to follow but you can usually get the gist of things. I’ve just found that many of these controversies are endless and life is too short to tediously repeat same thing over and over to the same posters, many of whom appear to be rather single-minded in their approach as well as highly resistant to any opinion other than their own. I have been accused of being “afraid” of such posters, but that’s not the case at all. I am not afraid, I am merely unwilling to spend any time or resources on endless, pointless argument and yet that appears to be the only thing that some posters are interested in. As a result, after a while, most end up on my “ignore” list.

In addition, as you have no doubt noted, disagreement with the doctrines of the Mormon faith will often elicit hostility from its adherents, those who are either unable or unwilling to distinguish disagreement about doctrine from intolerance of people. Such persons often fall into the “single-minded in their approach as well as highly resistant to any opinion other than their own” category, so “discussion” with such persons is often an exercise in futility.

Actually, people who disagree with beliefs I actually hold, and say so with courtesy (even if they say so strongly) are rare. I welcome them. I wish more of you would actually, y’know, DO that. What we get are people who insist that we believe things we don’t, and then get insulting when we have the audacity to correct their misinformation, or who make wholesale generalizations like 'Mormons are all brainwashed cultists." Odd how we might not react well to stuff like that.

That quote of Fr. Rutler’s in my signature has many applications both within this forum as well as outside of it. For example, it has a very definite application to politics. There is a tendency within the populace to substitute slogans and opinions for the search for TRUTH, which is often more difficult and time-consuming. That is unfortunate and leads to a great deal of uninformed opinions. And yet is is often just as pointless to have a discussion about a political issue with such persons as it is to have a discussion about religious doctrine with some posters to this forum. Many people who are uninformed, yet highly opinionated, about a political issue will cling tenaciously to that opinion regardless of the facts. It can be rather frustrating to try to discuss anything with them.

A corollary to the quote in my signature is the tendency of some people & groups to shout down those with whom they disagree. Lacking information & a sound basis for dialog, they instead resort to noise and sometimes violence to drown out/marginalize the opposition. Unfortunately we can see examples of such behavior on TV on a regular basis. This is not democracy, this is an example of tyranny in the making. Nazi Germany is a prime example of where such tactics were widely used. If we are wise, and I’m not sure enough of us are, we will step back from this tendency.

Ah. I see that you are not a fan of Glen Beck?

 

[dianaiad]

Most of the worst SOBs I’ve ever known have been Mormons. Did Mormonism make them SOBs? I doubt it.

When we criticize LDS beliefs and teachings, we are not implying that the people who believe them are somehow inferior humans (as Brigham Young said of Christians) or evil people. But Mormons really do think that non-Mormons are inferior, evil and somehow sub-human. Just listen to the way they denegrate and vilify “gentiles” when talking amongst themselves. You know it’s true. I heard it every day of the 11 years I was LDS. It is one of the things that started me looking at Mormonism objectively (along with all the lies they preached about Catholics).

So don’t project your bad habits onto the rest of us. We really know the difference between Mormons and Mormonism.

The irony of the above post says it all, Paul.

 

[MelanieAnne]

Most of the worst SOBs I’ve ever known have been Mormons. Did Mormonism make them SOBs? I doubt it.

When we criticize LDS beliefs and teachings, we are not implying that the people who believe them are somehow inferior humans (as Brigham Young said of Christians) or evil people. But Mormons really do think that non-Mormons are inferior, evil and somehow sub-human. Just listen to the way they denegrate and vilify “gentiles” when talking amongst themselves. You know it’s true. I heard it every day of the 11 years I was LDS. It is one of the things that started me looking at Mormonism objectively (along with all the lies they preached about Catholics).

So don’t project your bad habits onto the rest of us. We really know the difference between Mormons and Mormonism.

Paul, I support 100% your analysis of “projection”. And I find it tedious, not to mention hypocritical, for certain posters to criticize others for behavior they routinely practice themselves.

And while I can’t say for sure that MOST of the worst SOBs I have ever known have been Mormon, I can say for sure that I’ve run into more than a few Mormons that were pretty despicable persons. And I agree with you, their Mormonism didn’t make them a liar, a cheat, a pedophile, or whatever sort of bad example that they were. At the same time, Mormons can hardly make a claim of perfection, nor can they claim to have cornered the market on family values, graciousness & a host of other good qualities.

I find your assertion that Mormons “really do think that non-Mormons are inferior, evil and somehow sub-human” very interesting. I have never arrived at that precise conclusion, but we certainly have been exposed to that sort of treatment right here on the forum, where the Mormons are the virtual equivalent of “guests in our home”. Rather unusual behavior for “guests”.

One example that I find at the same time laughable, arrogant and extremely ignorant is the assertion once made by a forum member that the Catholic faith is like “high school” and the Mormon faith, in comparison, is like “university”. While I do not know if the poster who made this statement is one of the Mormons that claim to have a Catholic background (something I am finding to be increasingly unconvincing), the statement, on its face shows a glaring lack of familiarity with the Catholic faith, so much so that the person showed themselves to be utterly unqualified to make the statement in the first place. Most Mormons I have come in contact with, while generally very nice people, are both utterly ignorant of and also totally lacking in curiosity about other faiths. (My classic example is the man who sincerely thought that to “genuflect” was to make the sign of the cross.) It’s hard to take someone seriously when they don’t know what they’re talking about! It’s even more difficult to listen to someone assert superiority on that basis!

 

[MelanieAnne]

science will not be able to directly detect the divine essence of the eucharist just like science would not be able to detect the divine essence of Jesus. essences/substances are metaphysical realties, not physical ones. just like science can’t directly prove or disprove the existence of mathematics.

science can tell us the BOM is false because aboriginal peoples of the americas are not decedents of jews but are genetically east asians who came across the land bridge around 10,000 years ago. archeology can tell us jews did not come to america 1000s of years ago by crossing the pacific and that the BOA was a forgery of an egyptian book of the dead from the 2nd or 1st century.

and common sence tells us that joe smith was a liar and deceiver.

This is a common device of Mormons when confronted with the utter lack of validity of their texts. It’s a false equivalence. The point is NOT whether someone can prove “divine essence” true, or some of these other tests thrown out by Mormons to confuse the issue. The point is that the Book of Mormon has been proven to be demonstrably FALSE. Perhaps it is frustrating for some people that they cannot prove some aspect of Christianity to be demonstrably false, so they change the issue. It is a totally fallacious argument.

The Mormon apologists that argue this way have no way of dealing with the fact that the Book of Mormon has been proven to be unequivocally false, and some are even on record that even if they themselves came to the conclusion that the Book of Mormon was false, they would still believe. Obviously it is not a rational, factual issue for such persons. When confronted with the facts, the comeback is often this sort false equivalence, since support for the factual basis for the Book of Mormon is utterly lacking. It’s a false equivalence, it proves nothing, and it also does nothing to lift the label of “false” from the Book of Mormon.

 

[why_me]

I find your assertion that Mormons “really do think that non-Mormons are inferior, evil and somehow sub-human” very interesting. I have never arrived at that precise conclusion, but we certainly have been exposed to that sort of treatment right here on the forum, where the Mormons are the virtual equivalent of “guests in our home”. Rather unusual behavior for “guests”.
!

Actually since it is the non-catholic section of the forum, you are the guest of other religions that may be posting here. Now of course, if a title to a thread is antimormon, mormons will come and defend their faith. It is actually their right and home to do so since the title is non-catholic relgions.

It is ironic to be critical of mormons on this section of the forum by claiming that they have treated catholics poorly. It is just the opposite. On the non-catholic religion section they are not guests. You are. Catholics can not post hate and misinformation about mormons without a mormon defending their faith in return.

Paul is a former mormon with a chip on his shoulder but he should be more honest in his posts.

 

[why_me]

The point is that the Book of Mormon has been proven to be demonstrably FALSE.

.

Your statement is false. I must have missed the newsbullentin that claimed the book of mormon false. In which paper was it in? You still will probably preach that no one saw the book of mormon. I proved you wrong on that one statement you made. Can you provide proof that the book is demonstrably false? Oh, I think that I am on your ignore button. Oh well…

 

[dianaiad]

Paul, I support 100% your analysis of “projection”. And I find it tedious, not to mention hypocritical, for certain posters to criticize others for behavior they routinely practice themselves.

And while I can’t say for sure that MOST of the worst SOBs I have ever known have been Mormon, I can say for sure that I’ve run into more than a few Mormons that were pretty despicable persons. And I agree with you, their Mormonism didn’t make them a liar, a cheat, a pedophile, or whatever sort of bad example that they were. At the same time, Mormons can hardly make a claim of perfection, nor can they claim to have cornered the market on family values, graciousness & a host of other good qualities.

We don’t claim that. Or at least, I do not. I DO, however, have no hesitation at all in quoting the statistics that show that we are not the horrible people some people here claim we are. When I see someone say that there is nothing positive that one can say about Mormons or Mormonism (which has happened within the last couple of days) and that we have no virtues at all, then posting such facts as our record on lifestyle, abortion, divorce, out of wedlock births, church attendance and education is not at all out of line.

I find your assertion that Mormons “really do think that non-Mormons are inferior, evil and somehow sub-human” very interesting. I have never arrived at that precise conclusion, but we certainly have been exposed to that sort of treatment right here on the forum, where the Mormons are the virtual equivalent of “guests in our home”. Rather unusual behavior for “guests”.

By the way, as for being a 'guest in your home…" since when is it permissible for a host to treat a guest like a second class citizen–that is is acceptable for a host to heap insults upon the head of a guest, while the guest must not ever respond harshly?

I know of no society where it is standard for the guest to be treated like an unwelcome imposition, where the host is allowed to run rampant.

One example that I find at the same time laughable, arrogant and extremely ignorant is the assertion once made by a forum member that the Catholic faith is like “high school” and the Mormon faith, in comparison, is like “university”. While I do not know if the poster who made this statement is one of the Mormons that claim to have a Catholic background (something I am finding to be increasingly unconvincing), the statement, on its face shows a glaring lack of familiarity with the Catholic faith, so much so that the person showed themselves to be utterly unqualified to make the statement in the first place. Most Mormons I have come in contact with, while generally very nice people, are both utterly ignorant of and also totally lacking in curiosity about other faiths. (My classic example is the man who sincerely thought that to “genuflect” was to make the sign of the cross.) It’s hard to take someone seriously when they don’t know what they’re talking about! It’s even more difficult to listen to someone assert superiority on that basis!

So they don’t know what a genuflection is. Correct them. I find it interesting to see that you insist that we know everything about your faith (even to the minutia of the name of a curtsy over making the sign of the cross) but you don’t seem to feel that it is important that you know what Mormons believe—in a conversation devoted to what Mormons believe.

 

[ricko]

zaffiroborant;5559860:

These catholics showed their faith through their works. And that is important. They did not go around bashing other faiths but reached out to other people in other faiths and showed the characteristics of christ in their works. And that is the point.

Catholics can walk and chew gum at the same time. There is nothing that says you must be either/or. We are free to do good works and bash a false religion at the same time.

 

[ricko]

Dee Dee,
I have no problem with the Book of Abraham or with the Book of Mormon or with the Bible.
You wanted vigorous–I’ll give you vigorous. Define “essence”. Define “divine nature.” Use a scientific definition, as you made that your premise from the get-go. Prove the “miracles” you asserted, scientifically.

While you’re at it, demonstrate scientifically how three “Separate Persons” scientifically can be demonstrated to be absolutely “One Being.”

If I might help my brother Catholic. I’d like to say that scientifically, in nature there is one substance that can exist in three separate states. That would be water. It exists as a gas, liquid or as a solid. It would make logicial sense that if a substance on earth could exist in three different forms then God who made that substance could certainly exist as three separate persons yet be one God.