Why are people mormon considering it is obvioulsy fabricated?

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After the death of Joseph Smith Jr., the Prophet Brigham Young Sr. taught that “Negroes” were black due to the mark of Cain, which also meant that they were Canaanites and were under the curse of Ham. For this reason, most blacks of African descent—along with a smaller number of non-blacks that the Church also deemed to be Canaanites—were ineligible to be ordained to the Priesthood. They were also barred from participating in the Endowment and celestial marriage, but were allowed to enter the church’s temples to perform baptism for the dead.[2] While this policy existed for over a century, it was always with the promise that “the time will come when they will have the privilege of all we have the privilege of and more.”[3] In 1978, church leaders said they had received a revelation that this long-promised time had come
dumb dumb dumb… this capriciousness is similar to the mormons dropping polygamy when they were going to be driven out of the u.s. to mexico. poor mexico!

if only we could have fixed the problem with the inquisition like with the cathars. problem solved.
 
A guy was able to trick his friend by invoking the anger of god when his friend sought to verify his outrageous claim of a visiting angel who gave him golden tablets containing the word of god. Hmmm … isn’t this what religion does generally?

In this case it’s obvious because it occurred here in the US in the 19th century. Yet billions trust equally bizarre claims coming from men much more remote in time. Therefore, I see little difference between mainstream Christianity and its offshoot sects like Mormonism (at least from a believability standpoint).
 
Diana has called for references on Joseph mixing up his narrative of the Book of Mormon… Here is an example:

The original 1830 version of Mosiah 21:28 reads:
And now Limhi was again filled with joy, on learning from the mouth of Ammon that king Benjamin had a gift from God, whereby he could interpret such engravings; yea, and Ammon also did rejoice.
The problem is that king Benjamin was dead by this time (Mosiah 6:5). This reference to Benjamin was changed to ‘Mosiah’ in the 1837 and subsequent editions. A similar change was made in the Book of Ether. The original 1830 text of Ether 4:1 reads:
*…and for this cause did king Benjamin keep them, that they should not come unto the world until after Christ shew himself unto his people. *
Again, this was changed to ‘Mosiah’ in subsequent editions. These two changes indicate that Joseph Smith may have originally planned a different course for the story. The story of king Benjamin was in the 116 pages lost by Martin Harris. It is possible that in this first version king Benjamin lived longer. Joseph may have become confused and killed off king Benjamin prematurely while reconstructing from memory the story contained in the lost pages.

It is unlikely that Joseph would have made such an error if he was really dictating the words that appeared on the seer stone in his hat. After all, he reportedly could not continue with the next sentence until his scribe read the last sentence back to him and he verified that what the scribe had written was correct. I can understand spelling errors and such, but plot line errors like this make me suspect that Joseph was not receiving the text through “the gift and power of God” as he claimed.

This error has been cited in a number of places, including “Mormonism: Shadow or Reality?” by Gerald and Sandra Tanner.
 
A case could be made for that, yes.

Put it this way; a preference for one group automatically means a discrimination against the rest.

I love it. First you defend the idea that up until recently all the Popes were Italian, meaning that it’s not racist to get something because you are a member of a specific group (in this case, Italians…)

Then you criticize the Boston Pops for hiring a musician because of race (black) in spite of the fact that s/he may not have passed the audition to the same level as a ‘white’ candidate…calling 'getting something just because of your skin color" racist.

But you go ahead, argue with yourself. When you figure out which side of this you are going to take, let me know, will you?
I can’t believe you don’t understand that. Of course I criticize the Pops for what they did. They hired a black man just to have one. The curtain was the equalizer. When they took it down, they became racist. Even the black man they hired said it was not right.

The Popes being Italian up until recently was not racist. It just happen that way due to the voting (which was from all nations and races). Same with the Boston Pops. They didn’t have a black man because none qualified, not because they were racist.

The side I am on is equality for all and blindness to color. No person should be hired or fired because of his color. I agree with the Supreme Court decision on the fireman.
 
In this case it’s obvious because it occurred here in the US in the 19th century. Yet billions trust equally bizarre claims coming from men much more remote in time
many do, including catholics. the universe is bizarre. any atheist would aknowledge that the universe is far wierder than we can imagine. nontheless, any faith worthwhile must be reasonable. catholicism is totally reasonable. mormonism is not because science and history prove it false. this is something that can’t be said of too many religions whose authenticity don’t rely on historical and scientific facts.

so what exactly is your beef with catholicism. the incarnation is incredible and very hard to take on face value, but it can’t be proven false by science or history.
 
many do, including catholics. the universe is bizarre. any atheist would aknowledge that the universe is far wierder than we can imagine. nontheless, any faith worthwhile must be reasonable. catholicism is totally reasonable. mormonism is not because science and history prove it false. this is something that can’t be said of too many religions whose authenticity don’t rely on historical and scientific facts.
Arguably science proves Catholicism wrong just as readily as it proves Mormonism wrong. What we know about evolution discounts the possibility of an Adam & Eve, the events surrounding the Tower of Babel, etc.

The only reason why Mormonism seems more unreasonable than Catholicism is because Catholicism has been around for longer, it’s claims are far more remote in time, and it’s accepted by far more people.
so what exactly is your beef with catholicism. the incarnation is incredible and very hard to take on face value, but it can’t be proven false by science or history.
no beef with the CC (just killing time on this forum). However, I do take issue with the claim the incarnation cannot be proven false. It can be proven false beyond a “reasonable” doubt by circumstantial evidence using simple logic. However, science cannot debunk a claim it has no way to investigate and scrutinize (so pointing to the inability of science to reach back two thousand years in time & investigate the resurrection is a red herring).
 
What we know about evolution discounts the possibility of an Adam & Eve, the events surrounding the Tower of Babel, etc.
1st off, there is nothing in the catholic faith the can contradict science or the truth. adam and eve can be shown to exist based on genetic evidence, i.e. all humans have a common ansestor and are the same family.
In scholarly literature first “Adam” or rather first paternal ancestor date was estimated at 270,000 years ago.[4][5] Later new set of markers was chosen and the age was adjusted to mostly cited value.[6] The dates calculated on new markers was 37,000–49,000 years ago [7] to ****51,000–411,000 ****years ago [8]
Mitochondrial Eve is believed to have lived about **170,000 **years ago, or roughly 8,000 generations ago. This places her shortly after the speciation of Homo sapiens sapiens and the emergence of the first anatomically modern humans. Mitochondrial Eve would have been roughly contemporary with humans whose fossils have been found in Ethiopia near the Omo river and at Hertho. Mitochondrial Eve lived significantly earlier than the out of Africa migration which occurred some 60,000 years ago
so there is a possiblity that they were a couple. as for the tower of babel, the catholic church doesn’t interpret the old testament literally and leaves as a possiblity inaccuracies (not in faith) in the new testament because they have human authors.
It can be proven false beyond a “reasonable” doubt by circumstantial evidence using simple logic. However, science cannot debunk a claim it has no way to investigate and scrutinize (so pointing to the inability of science to reach back two thousand years in time & investigate the resurrection is a red herring).Today 6:00 pm
logic… ha! give it your best shot, the greatest minds ever are counted in the church, much more intellegent than you. you’re not going to use logic to prove catholicism is wrong. what do you think the church has been doing for 2,000 years?

there is a gulf between the claims of mormonism and catholicism. if catholicism claimed as a matter of faith that st. peter set up the vatican in hoboken and populated the americas with his offspring, we can say that is false using science. there is nothing in the catholic faith the can be shown to contradict science. if so, i’ll would it in a heart beat.

are you sure you’re not mormon?
 
james augustine healy was the first black bishop in the U.S. back in 1875.
Yes, he was. There is a problem, though. Y’see, nobody KNEW he was black. He and his brothers “passed” as 'black Irish." True, their mother was a slave, but she was ‘mixed race’ herself. Turns out that she was only about a quarter black. Enough, in those days, to keep her a slave, but…

And his father was very Irish. He bought his mother from her owner, and may or may not have married her legally…doesn’t much matter, since the marriage would have been illegal, but he presented her as his wife all his life. He owned other slaves.

They had six children: the others were also sent ‘north’ to be educated by Quakers. From there, their father got them into Holy Cross, where the brothers did very, very well. His brother Patrick became the president of Georgetown University.

Y’see, I know all about the Healy brothers, Dee Dee, and I applaud them and their parents. They were an amazing family and a great credit to the church and their parents…but let’s face it. If they hadn’t looked “white” and hadn’t emphasized their Irish roots and ignored their black ones, they would not have achieved what they did. They were indeed first…but only because they fooled everybody.

It is a personal accomplishment for them that they did all that the did do (and Catholics should be very thankful these men joined the priesthood ) they are actually an illustration of how racist the American Catholic church was, not how wonderfully tolerant it was. After all, look at what it did to Father Tolton, who should really be given the honor of being the first African American priest. Y’see, he didn’t hide his ethnicity. He couldn’t; while the Healy brothers looked Irish down to their toenails, Father Tolton was a black slave, and looked like one.

HIS experiences were not anywhere near as shining bright as the Healy’s. He wasn’t allowed to study at Holy Cross, or at Georgetown. He wasn’t allowed to study at any American Seminary. The priests and nuns who raised him discouraged him, and when he insisted, they did everything in their power to make certain that he was not allowed anywhere near a seminary here. He earned his own way to Rome and studied there…and was told that he had to come back to America to serve, right where he had been born and raised. He didn’t want to; Europe, though not particularly kind, was kinder than Americans were. But, he came back, and he served the best he could—and he died early and he died alone and relatively uncelebrated. Personally, I think he deserves a lot more credit than the Healy brothers, as accomplished as they were and as much as they achieved.

In the defense of the Healys, if they needed defense (which, quite frankly, they don’t!) I think it’s fairly obvious that they weren’t internally dishonest by “passing.” They were doing what they absolutely should have done. Their heritage was mostly Celtic; Irish. For them to emphasize the 1/8 (or perhaps less) negro blood would have been pretty silly…rather like me claiming that because there was a German in my ancestry way back when, that none of my other ancestors, who were Scotts, counted.

As he was dying,Patrick requested that he be buried under a Celtic Cross. He thought of himself as Irish. So, by the way, did Georgetown…and trust me, NOBODY got interested in his African ancestry until it became politically correct to do so.

And that, come to think of it, is as racist a position as the one that would have kept him from Holy Cross or teaching (and becoming dean of) Georgetown.Why does that small bit of African heritage matter more than the whole of his Irish one? I think it is wrong to claim him as the first African American bishop–or dean of a major ‘mostly white’ university. He woldn’t have claimed that for himself; quite the opposite.
st. moses the black was ordained a priest in 405. the coptic church has had a black priesthood probably going back to the time of the apostles.
That’s nice. I rather like the story of St. Moses, myself.

Of the officially canonized 3000 Catholic Saints, 8 are black. There are over 10,000 saints that are called so but not officially canonized…and a great many more of those are supposed to be black, but we don’t really know about those. Again, they are termed so in many cases because they were slaves–but in Rome, a slave was far more likely to be white.
what you say here highlights how mormons attempt to make equivalent two things which are very different. on one hand, you have as religous dogma that blacks were punished with dark skin; on the other, you have ephemeral state sponsored racism prohibiting the catholic church from being fully integrated in america, especially in the south.

how can anyone be part of this mormon cult is beyond me. they taught racism as a religious tenant. that is evil.
Indeed. on one hand we have a church that claims to be non-racist, and whose proponents of this idea give examples of Saints…when blacks make up about .2% of the canon of Saints. Not two percent (which would be about right, representing the total black Catholic population) but POINT 2%. Not so good.

According to the Conference of Black Bishops, 3% of American Catholics are black. Yet only 1% of American Catholic priests are black.

We have a church that SAID it wasn’t racist, and SAID that owning slaves was an excommunicable offense, and SAID that any man who felt called to be a priest could become one…

But who never excommunicated a single slave owner nor even asked that they not take communion. Whose clergy owned slaves. Who was in the Americas for three hundred years before a single black American became a priest…and the first one had to hide his African heritage to do so, and the one who actually LOOKED black had to hitch his way to Rome to pull it off.

On the other hand, we have a church that had an official racist policy for a 150 years, and was honest about it. We didn’t pretend otherwise by saying one thing and acting another. Then, one day, that policy was changed and the priesthood extended to ‘all worthy male members’ (blacks of African descent get the priesthood) and, rather than take literally centuries to enact that policy, did it instantly. Now, thirty years later, every worthy black Mormon man has the priesthood, period. We have more general authorities, bishops and leaders in our measly 14 million population than the Catholics have counted in the entire 15 centuries of its existence…and we did it in thirty years.

Does that make us perfect? Not even close. What it does do, however, is make it a little difficult for a Catholic to call us ‘racist’ and honestly take the high road. It is a classic case of the ocean criticizing the lake for being wet, y’know?
 
Uh huh. I suppose in your view God only picked the perfect to be prophets?
LOL, nobody is perfect. But I do think that God would have picked people we were competent or at leat took some pride in what they were doing for Him.

Here we have a book that God wants everyone to read and follow, basically its the most important book in history.

He gives it to someone who cant translate properly (ie: he puts his own opions into the translation), who dictates his translation to a scribe who cant take dictation. Then they take this important work (which is faulty/inaccurate to begin with) and decide to get it printed “on the cheap” and get it printed by an assistant printer who cant spell (Which isnt really a problem since he is copying the text) who makes it worse.

They fix the printers errors and release a second edition, but then make a third edition by using the known faulty first edition as the template. While the translator declares it “the most correct book of any book on earth”.

No, perfect prophets isnt what is being asked. People who take pride in what they were asked to do and/or take their tasks seroiusly is more the question. It even suggests that God didnt take it seriously, at best.

Add to all this things like the Kinder Hook Plates and the Egyptian papyras (plus the whole historical thing) and it doesnt look good.
 
Does that make us perfect? Not even close. What it does do, however, is make it a little difficult for a Catholic to call us ‘racist’ and honestly take the high road. It is a classic case of the ocean criticizing the lake for being wet, y’know?
I’ve known many Mormons, and the visciously racist are surely in the minority. But your leaders have expressed the most virulent racism I have ever heard. If the Mormon rank and file are not overtly racist, it is in spite of your leaders, not because of them. No Catholic leader has ever said the disgusting things that your prophets and apostles have said.

Shall I post quotes? I don’t think you want that.
 
Indeed. on one hand we have a church that claims to be non-racist, and whose proponents of this idea give examples of Saints…when blacks make up about .2% of the canon of Saints. Not two percent (which would be about right, representing the total black Catholic population) but POINT 2%. Not so good.
According to the Conference of Black Bishops, 3% of American Catholics are black. Yet only 1% of American Catholic priests are black.
i don’t follow your logic with precentages. most of africa wasn’t until recently evangelized outside of ethiopia and much of still is pagan. but the catholic church is growing rapidly in africa, much more than mormonism.

are there racist catholics and mormons–yes, did the mormon cult teach racism as a matter of faith–yes. did catholicism–no. huge difference. once again science proves mormonism wrong.

fist black priest was ordained in 1886 in the u.s. as for this mixed bishop, he probably still looked black or at least middle eastern.
 
dumb dumb dumb… this capriciousness is similar to the mormons dropping polygamy when they were going to be driven out of the u.s. to mexico. poor mexico!

if only we could have fixed the problem with the inquisition like with the cathars. problem solved.
Say what?

Ok, Dee Dee, your grasp of American history is every inch as solid as your grasp of church history.

Just for fun, here’s a NON-Mormon account of the 'Utah War" and its goals and results.

Go do your homework. Then talk to me about this rather strange statement of yours.
 
i don’t follow your logic with precentages. most of africa wasn’t until recently evangelized outside of ethiopia and much of still is pagan. but the catholic church is growing rapidly in africa, much more than mormonism.
I wasn’t talking about Africa. I was talking about America.
are there racist catholics and mormons–yes, did the mormon cult teach racism as a matter of faith–yes. did catholicism–no. huge difference. once again science proves mormonism wrong.

fist black priest was ordained in 1886 in the u.s. as for this mixed bishop, he probably still looked black or at least middle eastern.
As I said, and I will repeat a little more baldly:

I have a choice. On the one hand, there is a church that was in the Americas for 400 years, and SAYS that a black man can be a priest if he has the call, and SAYS that slavery is wrong, and SAYS that slaveowners are to be excommuncated. Yet there were no black priests anywhere in America until late in the nineteenth century, religious orders and priests owned slaves, and Catholic slave owners had no problem attending mass and taking communion; no slaveowner was ever excommunicated.

On the other hand, there is a church that SAYS that blacks of African descent may not have the priesthood. It says so for 150 years or so…and in spite of a great deal of pressure, it stuck to its word. Then, on one June morning it is announced that the time had come; the priesthood was to be extended to all worthy male members. This announcement was greated with great joy, and implimented with enthusiasm and efficiency; no saying one thing and acting another for this group! In 30 years the Mormons have more black leaders than the Catholics found in their black population in three centuries in America.

With all due respect, Dee Dee, I’ll take the honest bigot who repents and has an enthusiastic and meaningful change of heart over the hypocrite any day.
 
Cool! and a Coast Guard Cutter named after his brother.

I also see the common Mormon fallacy of compositon. Its fun to watch
Explain how I committed a fallacy at all, much less one of composition? Do you even know what that is?
 
Again, there is a stark difference between Mormonism and Catholicism in the regard of racism:

-Blacks were denied the priesthood in Mormonism, which is necessary for exaltation, or the highest or full salvation found in the LDS Church. The priesthood is EVERYTHING in the LDS Church. It is literally the authority of God. Blacks were not able to hold this power and authority until 1978. Blacks were not able to be sealed for time and all eternity in the temple. Blacks were not able to be endowed. Priesthood authority is seen as important in the home, and it wasn’t there in black homes. Fathers could not give their children or wives blessings. And again, they could not be exalted. Thus, the LDS priesthood ban related directly with the very practice of the religion, as well as salvation itself. It also affected where Mormons sent missionaries. So, many LDS talk about how blacks have been members of the LDS Church since it began, however evangelization of Africa and places with heavily mixed populations, like Brazil, was deemphasized, because, they wouldn’t be able to ordain any of the new converts to the priesthood! So the Restored Gospel did not reach Africa or Brazil until much later.

-Contrasted to Catholicism, where holding the priesthood does not affect ones salvation. It is not needed in the home, where we have the universal priesthood of believers. All saving sacraments have been open to all people always. If the blacks were prevented from becoming priests in the USA because of the sins of Catholics accepting the racism of the society, it is still not even a reflection of a doctrinal statement or a position by the Catholic bishops, or even the Vatican. And yes, many LDS believe that their priesthood ban could have been because of an unworthy white population, since they would not be able to accept blacks as holding priesthood in that society. The difference is that if USA Catholics were racist and tried to impede blacks from discerning the priesthood, they realized their sins, and corrected such behavior. For the LDS Church, it a revelation from God was needed to correct this institutional ban.

-Let us not forget that the Catholic Church is not a USA phenomenon. We assess the worldwide LDS Church institutional ban of blacks from the priesthood (also affecting their evangelization of black Africa and mixed Brazil, thus limiting the spread of the Restored Gospel to those areas), then we must also assess the worldwide Catholic Church. About 25% of Catholics are of African descent. And of course there’s the Ethiopian Catholic Church, as well as the Coptic Catholic Church, where Africans have been leaders (i.e. priests and bishops) since they were established prior to the 1054 schism.

-what do you mean by “leaders”? Are you comparing LDS bishops to Catholic priests? What does it take to become an LDS bishop vs. a Catholic priest? What statistics do you have for the number of LDS leaders, I’m very curious actually.
 
Here is the difference:

The Catholic Church has always had an official policy of racial equality and condemnation of racial bigotry. Some Catholics have fallen short of that ideal. Other Catholics gave their lives and their careers defending indigenous peoples of minority races. There have always been black Catholic priests and black Catholic bishops.

The LDS church has, up until 1978, had an official policy of racism and hatred toward blacks. Their prophets and apostles spewed racist invectives against blacks and taught their followers that blacks are guilty of pre-birth sin, that they are inferior, and even that blacks are to be feared. Some LDS rose above their church and displayed tolerance and inclusiveness. An LDS bishop in Washington state in 1977 risked excommunication from the LDS church by baptizing a black man in his swimming pool and then ordaining him to the Aaronic priesthood.

When Catholics are racially inclusive, they are in harmony with the historic Catholic Church.

LDS, prior to 1978, who were racially inclusive were in opposition to their church.
 
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