Why are people mormon considering it is obvioulsy fabricated?

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why_me said:
I don’t know. Look at me. I received a powerful witness of the truthfulness of the book of mormon at 18 years of age when I prayed about it. And here I am going to catholic mass. But one thing I do know since Oliver and David left over polygamy that would have given them a wonderful opportunity to withdraw their testimonies. But they didn’t. Now if I were JS I would consider myself like Lou Gehrig and claim to be the luckiest man in the world. And I wouldn’t believe my luck, if I were a fraudster.
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Do you have a powerful witness to the Truth of the Catholic Church?
 
ricko said:
Parker, what were you saying about FEAR in the Catholic Church? Does not the sight of an angel with a drawn sword and swearing to kill constitute fear?

Zina later wrote, that within months of her marriage to Henry, “[Joseph] sent word to me by my brother, saying, ‘Tell Zina, I put it off and put it off till an angel with a drawn sword stood by me and told me if I did not establish that principle upon the earth I would lose my position and my life’”. Joseph further explained that, “the Lord had made it known to him she was to be his celestial wife.”
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I think so. But zina prayed about it and received her own testimony of the principle. If she didn’t get that testimony she would not have been sealed to him. We need to remember that Joseph Smith was no fan of polygamy. Many of his marriages occured from 1841 to 1843. He acted like a man in a hurry. Why? Well, a non-mormon would claim that he got a little itchy but a mormon could say that god was putting pressure on him to enact that principle. Thus, he went on a rampage to be sealed to as many women as possible at the god’s direction.
 
Religio71 said:
Do you have a powerful witness to the Truth of the Catholic Church?
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I can say this: I was born catholic and made my communion and confirmation. I began going to the catholic church again 35 years after leaving it. When I have been inside the catholic church I do feel the spirit. But I have not felt what I felt when I prayed about the book of mormon at the age of 18. I have said on this forum that I will not deny that witness for all the obvious reasons that you know full well.

If you have noticed I have not called you an apostate or used any harsh words against you. Why? because I think that it is great that you have found your place within the catholic church. I believe that god puts people where he thinks they belong and you belong in the catholic church. I only defend the lds church against undue criticism.
 
Agreed. The priest is obviously not following Catholic canon law, no matter if why me thinks it’s okay to break the rules of a Faith that he’s supposedly baptized and confirmed in.
 
why_me said:
I can say this: I was born catholic and made my communion and confirmation. I began going to the catholic church again 35 years after leaving it. When I have been inside the catholic church I do feel the spirit. But I have not felt what I felt when I prayed about the book of mormon at the age of 18. I have said on this forum that I will not deny that witness for all the obvious reasons that you know full well.

If you have noticed I have not called you an apostate or used any harsh words against you. Why? because I think that it is great that you have found your place within the catholic church. I believe that god puts people where he thinks they belong and you belong in the catholic church. I only defend the lds church against undue criticism.
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You don’t have to call us apostates! The very point of the existence of the LDS Church says that we are apostates of Christianity. So you have a stronger feeling of the Spirit after reading the Book of Mormon than being in a church with the Real Presence of Christ. Ok…you are Mormon basically. And there’s nothing wrong with admitting that. It would make things a lot easier, for both Catholics and actual Mormons.
 
But one thing I do know since Oliver and David left over polygamy that would have given them a wonderful opportunity to withdraw their testimonies. But they didn’t.
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We often hear this from Mormons. They never consider that people like Oliver Cowdery did not admit they committed fraud with the BoM because they still had to live their lives. Oliver became a lawyer after leaving the LDS. He could never have gotten any business had he admitted to perpetrating such a fraud. None of the “witnesses” wanted to brand themselves (or their families) as lying con-men and frauds, so they stuck to their stories.
 
First what sin is being committed? I see no sin. I was born catholic and never resigned my membership in the catholic faith. Since the catholic church does not recognize the lds baptism, I am and always was catholic. Have I expressed faith in the lds church? Where in my posts have I done so. Have I ever claimed that the lds church is true? I defend the lds church against undue criticism. I see nothing wrong in that. I view mormons as very religious who attempt to live according to what they believe is right. And they attempt to live holy lives because of it. I can think of worse things to be than mormon. I have daughters in the lds faith and they are doing fine. They are chaste, pray often, dress modestly and attempt to obey the commandments. I am proud of them. And I am sure god is also delighted with them. Any problem with what I wrote?
 
PaulDupre said:
We often hear this from Mormons. They never consider that people like Oliver Cowdery did not admit they committed fraud with the BoM because they still had to live their lives. Oliver became a lawyer after leaving the LDS. He could never have gotten any business had he admitted to perpetrating such a fraud. None of the “witnesses” wanted to brand themselves (or their families) as lying con-men and frauds, so they stuck to their stories.
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Thank you for that Paul, this is completely true. They don’t get that people don’t admit to all sorts of scandals because this would mess up the rest of their lives. And who would want to admit that on their death bed, to be known for fraud. Look at L. Ron Hubbard, founder of Scientology. He claimed that he made the “first Clear”, or person without their “reactive mind” an invented term meaning, among other things, one has perfect recall. When he presented this woman, she couldn’t even remember what color tie Hubbard was wearing! Did he admit to the obvious point that it was all fake? No, he just made up an excuse, then continued to add to Scientology, until we have what is now a business. He claimed that psychiatric drugs were not to be used, and claimed this to his death. Autopsy is done, what do they find? Vistaril, a psychiatric drug. :rolleyes: But that doesn’t stop people from joining. In fact, both Scientology and the LDS Church claim to be the “fastest growing religion”.
 
PaulDupre said:
We often hear this from Mormons. They never consider that people like Oliver Cowdery did not admit they committed fraud with the BoM because they still had to live their lives. Oliver became a lawyer after leaving the LDS. He could never have gotten any business had he admitted to perpetrating such a fraud. None of the “witnesses” wanted to brand themselves (or their families) as lying con-men and frauds, so they stuck to their stories.
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Oliver would have done just fine. He would have been a hero. You see it would have went like this:

I Oliver Cowdery hereby swear that I was duped by that charletan Joseph Smith. He, Joseph Smith Junior commited fraud to the highest extent possible, by convincing people that he was a prophet. I confess to having been duped and swayed by his charisma and charm. But I now know that he Joseph Smith Junior is of the devil and being human and wanting to believe his gifts I was convinced of his prophethood. I now reject him and forswear my previous testimony written in the front of the book of mormon.
Code: 
                                    signed,

                                oliver cowdery
He then would have been a hero and much business would have come his way. There is no problem with admitting human error.
 
why_me said:
First what sin is being committed? I see no sin. I was born catholic and never resigned my membership in the catholic faith. Since the catholic church does not recognize the lds baptism, I am and always was catholic. Have I expressed faith in the lds church? Where in my posts have I done so. Have I ever claimed that the lds church is true? I defend the lds church against undue criticism. I see nothing wrong in that. I view mormons as very religious who attempt to live according to what they believe is right. And they attempt to live holy lives because of it. I can think of worse things to be than mormon. I have daughters in the lds faith and they are doing fine. They are chaste, pray often, dress modestly and attempt to obey the commandments. I am proud of them. And I am sure god is also delighted with them. Any problem with what I wrote?
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Wait wait wait, you say “have I expressed faith in the LDS Church?” Yet you just said you were baptized into the LDS Church, and you have repeatedly said that you believe the Book of Mormon, and that Joseph Smith was a prophet, among other things you have said on MADB (weren’t you the one that wants to take Eucharist in the Catholic church and Sacrament in the LDS Church).

:rolleyes: Correct, we don’t recognize LDS baptism. But we also don’t believe that Hindu gods are real, so should you go pray to them? Being baptized in another faith is a sin. And here is what the Code of Canon Law, which you are bound by as a “Catholic”, right? says:

Can. 1364 §1. Without prejudice to the prescript of ⇒ can. 194, §1, n. 2, an apostate from the faith, a heretic, or a schismatic incurs a latae sententiae excommunication; in addition, a cleric can be punished with the penalties mentioned in ⇒ can. 1336, §1, nn. 1, 2, and 3.

By being baptized in the LDS Church and believing that the Book of Mormon is true Scripture, you are believing in heretical beliefs, and are thus apostasizing from the One True Catholic Church and the Deposit of Faith received by it. Therefore you should not be receiving any sacraments in the Church until you confess your sins.
 
why_me said:
You stated a thesis. I have refuted your thesis. You state that the account is not factual but offer no proof. You then attack my belief system. No problem. You just now need to change your thesis that no one saw the plates.
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So, you admit it then, you’re LDS, not Catholic?
 
PaulDupre said:
We often hear this from Mormons. They never consider that people like Oliver Cowdery did not admit they committed fraud with the BoM because they still had to live their lives. Oliver became a lawyer after leaving the LDS. He could never have gotten any business had he admitted to perpetrating such a fraud. None of the “witnesses” wanted to brand themselves (or their families) as lying con-men and frauds, so they stuck to their stories.
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And of course on their deathbed they would allow their families to believe the lie and they would face their maker with a grave sin. And so all 11 witnesses stuck to their story for the reason that you gave? I doubt it. Joseph was certainly lucky in picking these guys. And of course they never told their wives the truth…and I am sure that their wives asked them over and over again about what they saw. But they continued to lie to protect their families…
 
why_me said:
And of course on their deathbed they would allow their families to believe the lie and they would face their maker with a grave sin. And so all 11 witnesses stuck to their story for the reason that you gave? I doubt it. Joseph was certainly lucky in picking these guys. And of course they never told their wives the truth…and I am sure that their wives asked them over and over again about what they saw. But they continued to lie to protect their families…
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See L. Ron Hubbard. He maintained to his death that psychiatric drugs are, essentially, evil. What do you know, they are found in his body post-mortem.

Lots of people maintain they are prophets until the death bed. JS is nothing new on the scene.
 
Religio71 said:
You don’t have to call us apostates! The very point of the existence of the LDS Church says that we are apostates of Christianity. So you have a stronger feeling of the Spirit after reading the Book of Mormon than being in a church with the Real Presence of Christ. Ok…you are Mormon basically. And there’s nothing wrong with admitting that. It would make things a lot easier, for both Catholics and actual Mormons.
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Catholics on this forum have called mormons heretics. I refrain from name calling. I see no point. Did you have a testimony of the book of mormon? If so, are you now denying that testimony and calling it from the devil?
 
“There are many things published that they say are true, and again turn around and say they are false?" Whitmer, asked, “Do you hint at me?” Elder Turley said, “If the cap fits you, wear it; all I know is that you have published to the world that an angel did present those plates to Joseph Smith.” John replied: “I now say, I handled those plates; there were fine engravings on both sides. I handled them.” Then he described in the presence of these bitter enemies how the plates were fastened and he said, “They were shown to me by a supernatural power.”

Well, there it is, Whitmer’s own statement that he could not see the plates normally. He had to see them by a supernatural power. Maybe the plates existed in the 5th dimension and you couldn’t see them with normal vision?!
 
why_me said:
What does that have to do with Melanie’s flawed thesis?
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Originally Posted by why me View Post
You stated a thesis. I have refuted your thesis. You state that the account is not factual but offer no proof. You then attack my belief system. No problem. You just now need to change your thesis that no one saw the plates.]

See the bolded portion of your quote.

As a Catholic you can’t accept any of the uniquely LDS beliefs and still remain Catholic. Catholic and LDS theologies are mutually exclusive. If you still believe the LDS truth claims are true, you are by definition, not Catholic.

If you believe in:
The Apostacy
Pre-mortal existence
Polygamy/Celestial Marriage
The Godhead as defined by the LDS
Joseph Smith as a prophet
Celestial, Telestial, or Terrestrial Kingdoms
BoM is true scripture, Pearl of Great Price is true scripture, D & C is true scripture

Well, it seems to me, you’ve already made your choice, haven’t you?

So, do you understand what I and others have been saying, yet? You can’t by definition be LDS and Catholic. It’s either one or the other. One is true, the other is not.

So, back to my original question, which one is it, LDS or Catholic?

In Christ,
Michael
 
why_me said:
Catholics on this forum have called mormons heretics. I refrain from name calling. I see no point. Did you have a testimony of the book of mormon? If so, are you now denying that testimony and calling it from the devil?
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Dude, you don’t get it. You don’t need to call us names. The very foundation of the existence of the Mormon Church is that all other churches are false, and that none of them have the priesthood authority. I never had a testimony of the book of mormon. I may have thought that I did, but it is clear to me, from my research, that the claims of Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon were nothing new to Christian history, and the Catholic claims were MUCH stronger, especially from the historical POV. much prayer led me to the true Church of God, never restored, because it has always existed, the Catholic Church.
 
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