Why are people mormon considering it is obvioulsy fabricated?

[why_me]

See L. Ron Hubbard. He maintained to his death that psychiatric drugs are, essentially, evil. What do you know, they are found in his body post-mortem.

Lots of people maintain they are prophets until the death bed. JS is nothing new on the scene.

We have 11 people who never denied what they saw. Quite remarkable. And then of course we have some claiming to have felt and seen the plates even after leaving the lds church. Quite remarkable. Like I said, JS got lucky with these guys. I would have spilled the beans for sure. To keep all that bottled up inside even after seeing the tremendous persecution that mormons were experiencing at the hands of mobs would have gnawed at my heart and soul. I would have spilled the beans especially after Brigham was leading the saints westward. I just couldn’t keep my mouth shut.

 

[Religio71]

also Mormons believe in a completely different God than traditional Christians, placing them in the category of Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christadelphians, Christian Scientists, etc. Mormons would say that our God is heretical and based on Greek philosophy invading Christianity, and we see the Mormon God as based on inconsistently literal readings of certain texts in the Bible, as well as things that simply aren’t found in the Bible or Christian history, such as that God the Father is married to the Heavenly Mother, that God the Father has a body of flesh and bones, that God the Father possibly progressed on an earth similar to this one, etc. etc.

 

[why_me]

Dude, you don’t get it. You don’t need to call us names. The very foundation of the existence of the Mormon Church is that all other churches are false, and that none of them have the priesthood authority.

This is also the claim of the catholic church: that all other churches are false and that none but the catholic church has the true meaning of the eucharist.

 

[Religio71]

We have 11 people who never denied what they saw. Quite remarkable. And then of course we have some claiming to have felt and seen the plates even after leaving the lds church. Quite remarkable. Like I said, JS got lucky with these guys. I would have spilled the beans for sure. To keep all that bottled up inside even after seeing the tremendous persecution that mormons were experiencing at the hands of mobs would have gnawed at my heart and soul. I would have spilled the beans especially after Brigham was leading the saints westward. I just couldn’t keep my mouth shut.

Yes yes yes, like I’ve said, Hubbard kept his mouth shut until the end, as did all the people that claim that they were Clear or Operating Thetan, or that Scientology did not teach that space aliens were attached to people’s bodies. We now know what is really true about that.

I have studied psychology. You really underestimate what people can “keep bottled up inside”.

 

[Religio71]

This is also the claim of the catholic church: that all other churches are false and that none but the catholic church has the true meaning of the eucharist.

We believe that the Orthodox Church, the Assyrian Church of the East, and the Polish National Catholic Church have the “true meaning of the Eucharist”.

The foundation of Mormonism is that all other faiths are false. It is WHY it exists. There was no priesthood authority on earth. Thus Mormonism had to restore it! This is not the foundation of Catholicism, as we existed long before Mormons, Lutherans, Anglicans, JWs, Methodists, etc. etc.

 

[why_me]

I never had a testimony of the book of mormon. I may have thought that I did,.

You gave a contradiction here. Did you have a testimony of the book of mormon and are you now denying that testimony and are you willing to claim that it was from the devil when you did get that testimony?

 

[Jerusha]

Statement one all other churches (but the Catholic Church)are false and that

Statement two none but the catholic church has the true meaning of the eucharist.

Statement one is false. The Catholic Church teaches that there are some truths in all religions. You are victim to Mormon black and white thinking here.

Statement two is true. And that is why the Catholic Church is more true than any other. If you wish to read the BOM in the context of Norse history in N. America 985AD to 1472 AD, the timeline for the first Eucharistic celebration in N. America fits. It is fiction with some minimal basis in fact. Jesus was here in the Eucharist.

 

[why_me]

We believe that the Orthodox Church, the Assyrian Church of the East, and the Polish National Catholic Church have the “true meaning of the Eucharist”.

The foundation of Mormonism is that all other faiths are false. It is WHY it exists. There was no priesthood authority on earth. Thus Mormonism had to restore it! This is not the foundation of Catholicism, as we existed long before Mormons, Lutherans, Anglicans, JWs, Methodists, etc. etc.

So your list would mean that the above are the true churches of god along with the catholic church?

 

[PaulDupre]

By the way, did anyone else catch this in the story of Joseph Snith’s plural wife, the already-married Zina Jacobs?

…all is right according to the Law of the Celestial Kingdom of our God Joseph.”

• Henry B. Jacobs

I wonder if it was common in the early LDS church to refer to Joseph Smith as their God? I know it was commonly believed that Joseph Smith was the incarnation of the Holy Ghost - so much that LDS leaders later had to issue an official statement denying it.

I just found that particular turn of phrase odd.

 

[Religio71]

You gave a contradiction here. Did you have a testimony of the book of mormon and are you now denying that testimony and are you willing to claim that it was from the devil when you did get that testimony?

I never was pregnant. I thought I was pregnant, but I really wasn’t.

Explain the contradiction.

Also, explain to me how you keep claiming that you are Catholic, in spite of having a “testimony” of the Book of Mormon, and being baptized into the LDS Church, in light of this:

Can. 1364 §1. Without prejudice to the prescript of ⇒ can. 194, §1, n. 2, an apostate from the faith, a heretic, or a schismatic incurs a latae sententiae excommunication; in addition, a cleric can be punished with the penalties mentioned in ⇒ can. 1336, §1, nn. 1, 2, and 3.

Or do you disregard Canon Law?

 

[Religio71]

So your list would mean that the above are the true churches of god along with the catholic church?

I thought you knew this, as a Catholic?

Do you know the difference between schism and heretic?

The Catholic Church is the ONE Church of Christ. Certain groups are in schism from the Catholic Church, and have maintained apostolic succession. Thus they have valid Eucharist.

 

[Religio71]

1399 The Eastern churches that are not in full communion with the Catholic Church celebrate the Eucharist with great love. “These Churches, although separated from us, yet possess true sacraments, above all - by apostolic succession - the priesthood and the Eucharist, whereby they are still joined to us in closest intimacy.” A certain communion in sacris, and so in the Eucharist, “given suitable circumstances and the approval of Church authority, is not merely possible but is encouraged.”

Schismatic is what some of the Eastern Churches are. Heretical is unfortunately what the LDS Church is to the Catholic Church.

 

[twopekinguys]

Anyone see the similarities between Bernie Madoff and good ole JS?

Alot of people involved in a scheme, bilking people for years and years.

I sure see some similarities.

 

[why_me]

Statement one is false. The Catholic Church teaches that there are some truths in all religions.

As does the mormon church. But the catholic church would claim that the luthern church is false. Right?

 

[why_me]

I never was pregnant. I thought I was pregnant, but I really wasn’t.

Explain the contradiction.

I knew that you couldn’t deny that witness you received outright and claim that it was from the devil. Too much is at stake for you to do that. I understand perfectly well.

You should have been a politician.

 

[why_me]

This is true. The Russian church is not exactly pro-catholic and they are suspicious of the catholic church in Russia. And I don’t think that they would be keen on their members receiving catholic communion. But the greek church is a tad different. I believe that it is left up to the greek orthodox priest to decide if their flock can take the communion.

 

[Religio71]

I knew that you couldn’t deny that witness you received outright and claim that it was from the devil. Too much is at stake for you to do that. I understand perfectly well.

You should have been a politician.

Cite my post that said that the “witness” received is from the Devil.

Are you claiming that you know what I felt or didn’t feel?

Fyi, any “testimony” I received from the LDS claims were blown away by what I felt after Catholic confirmation and receiving the Eucharist for the first time.

 

[Religio71]

This is true. The Russian church is not exactly pro-catholic and they are suspicious of the catholic church in Russia. And I don’t think that they would be keen on their members receiving catholic communion. But the greek church is a tad different. I believe that it is left up to the greek orthodox priest to decide if their flock can take the communion.

Funny, I was mentioning on another forum that the Russian Orthodox Church accepts Catholic Orders, thus believing that we are schismatic, yet maintain apostolic succession. So, it seems that they at least see us as a valid Church, unlike Mormonism.

And of course they wouldn’t give us the Eucharist. And no, it is not up to the Greek Orthodox priest. Orthodoxy is one Church with the same Faith, with many churches, similar to the Catholic Church with many churches. Orthodoxy does not allow Eucharist to anyone except Orthodox.

 

[ricko]

Witnessess are the LEAST reliable of any evidence of an event. In the case of the eleven witnessess for the golden plates they were the worst of the lot:

“I did not see them uncovered, but I handled them and hefted them while wrapped in a tow frock and judged them to have weighed about sixty pounds. … Father and my brother Samuel saw them as I did while in the frock. So did Hyrum and others of the family.” When the interviewer asked if he didn’t want to remove the cloth and see the bare plates, William replied, "No, for father had just asked if he might not be permitted to do so, and Joseph, putting his hand on them said; ‘No,** I am instructed not to show them to any one**. If I do, I will transgress and lose them again.’

This revelation went on to say that three witnesses would be given special power to see the plates, but “to none else will I grant this power” (D&C 5:13-14). According to this revelation, there would only be three witnesses.

By 1847 not a single one of the surviving eleven witnesses was part of the Mormon church. Five of these witnesses joined The Church of Christ started by William McLellin, and Oliver Cowdery indicated he was supportive of this group, though he never joined. (D. Michael Quinn, The Mormon Hierarchy - Origins of Power, Signature Books, 1994, p. 188). If these men were alive today, they would be considered apostates who had turned their back on the Spirit of God. They would be cut off from the LDS church and condemned to outer darkness, regardless of whether or not they still believed in the Book of Mormon.

The accounts suggest the plates were seen with nothing more than the eye of the imagination

 

[ParkerD]

Witnessess are the LEAST reliable of any evidence of an event. In the case of the eleven witnessess for the golden plates they were the worst of the lot:

“I did not see them uncovered, but I handled them and hefted them while wrapped in a tow frock and judged them to have weighed about sixty pounds. … Father and my brother Samuel saw them as I did while in the frock. So did Hyrum and others of the family.” When the interviewer asked if he didn’t want to remove the cloth and see the bare plates, William replied, "No, for father had just asked if he might not be permitted to do so, and Joseph, putting his hand on them said; ‘No,** I am instructed not to show them to any one**. If I do, I will transgress and lose them again.’

This revelation went on to say that three witnesses would be given special power to see the plates, but “to none else will I grant this power” (D&C 5:13-14). According to this revelation, there would only be three witnesses.

By 1847 not a single one of the surviving eleven witnesses was part of the Mormon church. Five of these witnesses joined The Church of Christ started by William McLellin, and Oliver Cowdery indicated he was supportive of this group, though he never joined. (D. Michael Quinn, The Mormon Hierarchy - Origins of Power, Signature Books, 1994, p. 188). If these men were alive today, they would be considered apostates who had turned their back on the Spirit of God. They would be cut off from the LDS church and condemned to outer darkness, regardless of whether or not they still believed in the Book of Mormon.

The accounts suggest the plates were seen with nothing more than the eye of the imagination

Rick,
You seem to have Mormonism confused with another religion familiar to you. Outer darkness (eternal and forever) is for those who have a pure and complete witness from the Holy Ghost so that they know nothing doubting that Jesus is the Christ, and then rebel against that knowledge. None of the witnesses had sufficient knowledge to qualify, nor did they rebel against Jesus Christ.

I still find this inordinate fear factor in the posts from many Catholics. I think you can get over it, by reading the New Testament and thinking about God’s love for all people, not just for Catholics. You might give that a try–but suit yourself. The new covenant was supposed to do that for the people who embrace the true gospel. It gives them greater love, a greater capacity to forgive, greater light and knowledge and faith and the power to actually live the commandments including the greatest commandments–to love God and love others unselfishly, with the ability to be a light to the world.