Why are people mormon considering it is obvioulsy fabricated?

[mjf001]

Rick,
You seem to have Mormonism confused with another religion familiar to you. Outer darkness (eternal and forever) is for those who have a pure and complete witness from the Holy Ghost so that they know nothing doubting that Jesus is the Christ, and then rebel against that knowledge. None of the witnesses had sufficient knowledge to qualify, nor did they rebel against Jesus Christ.

I still find this inordinate fear factor in the posts from many Catholics. I think you can get over it, by reading the New Testament and thinking about God’s love for all people, not just for Catholics. You might give that a try–but suit yourself. The new covenant was supposed to do that for the people who embrace the true gospel. It gives them greater love, a greater capacity to forgive, greater light and knowledge and faith and the power to actually live the commandments including the greatest commandments–to love God and love others unselfishly, with the ability to be a light to the world.

Parker,
From a Catholic perspective, it’s not about fear, it’s about hope. God knows our human nature, and knows that we can’t be perfect. True, he asks us to aim for perfection, but knows we will fall short. That is why he gave us the Church and the priests. With confession, we have the opportunity to confess our sins, with purgatory, we need not be perfect (that is suffer for the effects of our sins for eternity) when we die. In confession, our sins are absolved, but there may still be an affect of sin or an attachment to sin. In purgatory, we are purified (from the effect/attachment), so we may enter heaven. Please note, the people in purgatory are already bound for heaven.
If someone dies with a mortal sin on their soul, they will go to hell forever. God does not will this, but he will not force anyone to choose him. If someone goes to hell, it is because that person chose to go there, by being unrepentant.
As a Catholic, I know that if I try to do what is right, make a good confession when I stumble, and cooperate with God’s Grace I can hope to wind up in heaven. I haven’t earned God’s Grace or Heaven, this is something God wills (gives freely) for me because of his Mercy. I do this because I love God, as I pray because I love God. I know the consequences if I choose otherwise. I see no coercion by the Church or by God in this. I see justice and mercy.

In Christ,
Michael

 

[dianaiad]

You’re right about Mormons leading good lives, but that doesn’t make Mormonism correct any more than righteous Muslims make Islam correct. From my understanding, the Catechism itself is not considered scripture. It is a guide regarding the Catholic Church’s teachings which are derived from the Bible ultimately. To answer your closing question, all churches that do not teach the whole truth are part of the Church of the Devil, according to Mormonism. By your own standards, one of us is indeed that church. It seems odd to me to call it disrespectful if I use that standard, but perfectly fine if your church does.

Actually, Robert, you are incorrect. We do not teach that “all churches that do not teach the whole truth are part of the Church of the Devil.” We teach that those who serve the devil, through hypocrisy or unrighteous behavior or…??? are of that church, and you will find them everywhere, including Catholicism, Mormonism, Protestantism–in fact, in about every ‘ism’ there is. By the same token, those who truly serve, and believe in, Christ, (well, except when they think that Christ is commanding them to harm others, physically, emotionally or whatever…) whether their beliefs about Him are absolutely correct or not, are of the church of Christ.

You will find members of both ‘churches’ pretty much everywhere you look.

 

[dianaiad]

“There are many things published that they say are true, and again turn around and say they are false?" Whitmer, asked, “Do you hint at me?” Elder Turley said, “If the cap fits you, wear it; all I know is that you have published to the world that an angel did present those plates to Joseph Smith.” John replied: “I now say, I handled those plates; there were fine engravings on both sides. I handled them.” Then he described in the presence of these bitter enemies how the plates were fastened and he said, “They were shown to me by a supernatural power.”

Well, there it is, Whitmer’s own statement that he could not see the plates normally. He had to see them by a supernatural power. Maybe the plates existed in the 5th dimension and you couldn’t see them with normal vision?!

He also said he handled them. As in…touched them. Now Moses was shown the tablets upon which the ten commandments were written by a supernatural power–yet they were real enough to him that he carried them down the mountain, where he was upset enough at what he saw there that he threw them on the ground and broke them to smithereens. Whereupon he had to go back and get a new set, ALSO shown to him by a supernatural power.

Ricko, the scriptures are full of “supernatural” showings of very real things.

You will have to use some other way to discredit this statement, sir.

 

[ParkerD]

Parker,
From a Catholic perspective, it’s not about fear, it’s about hope. God knows our human nature, and knows that we can’t be perfect. True, he asks us to aim for perfection, but knows we will fall short. That is why he gave us the Church and the priests. With confession, we have the opportunity to confess our sins, with purgatory, we need not be perfect (that is suffer for the effects of our sins for eternity) when we die. In confession, our sins are absolved, but there may still be an affect of sin or an attachment to sin. In purgatory, we are purified (from the effect/attachment), so we may enter heaven. Please note, the people in purgatory are already bound for heaven.
If someone dies with a mortal sin on their soul, they will go to hell forever. God does not will this, but he will not force anyone to choose him. If someone goes to hell, it is because that person chose to go there, by being unrepentant.
As a Catholic, I know that if I try to do what is right, make a good confession when I stumble, and cooperate with God’s Grace I can hope to wind up in heaven. I haven’t earned God’s Grace or Heaven, this is something God wills (gives freely) for me because of his Mercy. I do this because I love God, as I pray because I love God. I know the consequences if I choose otherwise. I see no coercion by the Church or by God in this. I see justice and mercy.

In Christ,
Michael

Michael,
I’m fine with your beliefs expressed here, but what you didn’t say is whether when I repent (which I do often, many many times) that qualifies me for heaven in your mind, or whether I have to be a Catholic to be able to truly repent. (Not that I have any doubt about these things myself–not a smidgen of uncertainty, not a smidgen of doubt about “purgatory” being an imaginary made-up place (perhaps by Dante), nor any doubt about the fact that those who believe in Christ and repent and become sanctified inherit His glory.) What I mean is, you nor anyone need “fear” for my soul, and the originator of this cheap imitation of “religion” thread need not either, nor worry that I have followed a fabrication–I have followed exactly what God has given to me through the power of the Holy Ghost which is as real as anything one can touch or see.

 

[robert7685]

Actually, Robert, you are incorrect. We do not teach that “all churches that do not teach the whole truth are part of the Church of the Devil.” We teach that those who serve the devil, through hypocrisy or unrighteous behavior or…??? are of that church, and you will find them everywhere, including Catholicism, Mormonism, Protestantism–in fact, in about every ‘ism’ there is. By the same token, those who truly serve, and believe in, Christ, (well, except when they think that Christ is commanding them to harm others, physically, emotionally or whatever…) whether their beliefs about Him are absolutely correct or not, are of the church of Christ.

You will find members of both ‘churches’ pretty much everywhere you look.

You may be right on this point. I just checked lds.org and all references to the church of the devil seem to match what you’re saying. I was going on unofficial discussions with fellow members (while I was still an active Mormon) I had in the past which of course cannot be construed as official Mormon doctrine. I apologize to you and to all Mormons on the forums for the mistake.

 

[mjf001]

Michael,
I’m fine with your beliefs expressed here, but what you didn’t say is whether when I repent (which I do often, many many times) that qualifies me for heaven in your mind, or whether I have to be a Catholic to be able to truly repent. (Not that I have any doubt about these things myself–not a smidgen of uncertainty, not a smidgen of doubt about “purgatory” being an imaginary made-up place (perhaps by Dante), nor any doubt about the fact that those who believe in Christ and repent and become sanctified inherit His glory.) What I mean is, you nor anyone need “fear” for my soul, and the originator of this cheap imitation of “religion” thread need not either, nor worry that I have followed a fabrication–I have followed exactly what God has given to me through the power of the Holy Ghost which is as real as anything one can touch or see.

My belief as a Catholic is that without the Sacrament of Reconciliation, one would need Perfect contrition for one’s sins. Having said that, God is a merciful God and just God and I’m sure his judgements will reflect his mercy and justice. It is not for me to say who will or will not go to heaven, that is in God’s hands.

I’m not trying to judge, just stating what I’ve been taught.

In Christ,
Michael

 

[ParkerD]

My belief as a Catholic is that without the Sacrament of Reconciliation, one would need Perfect contrition for one’s sins. Having said that, God is a merciful God and just God and I’m sure his judgements will reflect his mercy and justice. It is not for me to say who will or will not go to heaven, that is in God’s hands.

I’m not trying to judge, just stating what I’ve been taught.

In Christ,
Michael

Michael,
Beautiful thought, beautifully expressed. Thanks!

 

[dianaiad]

You may be right on this point. I just checked lds.org and all references to the church of the devil seem to match what you’re saying. I was going on unofficial discussions with fellow members (while I was still an active Mormon) I had in the past which of course cannot be construed as official Mormon doctrine. I apologize to you and to all Mormons on the forums for the mistake.

You are very gracious, Robert.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Michael,
I’m fine with your beliefs expressed here, but what you didn’t say is whether when I repent (which I do often, many many times) that qualifies me for heaven in your mind, or whether I have to be a Catholic to be able to truly repent. (Not that I have any doubt about these things myself–not a smidgen of uncertainty, not a smidgen of doubt about “purgatory” being an imaginary made-up place (perhaps by Dante), nor any doubt about the fact that those who believe in Christ and repent and become sanctified inherit His glory.) What I mean is, you nor anyone need “fear” for my soul, and the originator of this cheap imitation of “religion” thread need not either, nor worry that I have followed a fabrication–I have followed exactly what God has given to me through the power of the Holy Ghost which is as real as anything one can touch or see.

Made up by Dante? ummm, no. It is rooted in scripture.

“For if on the foundation of Christ you have built not only gold and silver and precious stones (1 Cor.,3); but also wood and hay and stubble, what do you expect when the soul shall be separated from the body? Would you enter into heaven with your wood and hay and stubble and thus defile the kingdom of God; or on account of these hindrances would you remain without and receive no reward for your gold and silver and precious stones; neither is this just. It remains then that you be committed to the fire which will burn the light materials; for our God to those who can comprehend heavenly things is called a cleansing fire. But this fire consumes not the creature, but what the creature has himself built, wood, and hay and stubble. It is manifest that the fire destroys the wood of our transgressions and then returns to us the reward of our great works.” Origen, Homilies on Jeremias, PG 13:445, 448 ( A.D. 244).

And purgatory is not a place, it is a condition of existence.

Pope John Paul II:

Every trace of attachment to evil must be eliminated, every imperfection of the soul corrected. Purification must be complete, and indeed this is precisely what is meant by the Church’s teaching on *purgatory. *

The term does not indicate a place, but a condition of existence. Those who, after death, exist in a state of purification, are already in the love of Christ who removes from them the remnants of imperfection (cf. Ecumenical Council of Florence, *Decretum pro Graecis: *DS 1304; Ecumenical Council of Trent, Decretum de iustificatione: DS 1580; *Decretum de purgatorio: *DS 1820).

 

[Catholic20064]

Made up by Dante? ummm, no. It is rooted in scripture.

And purgatory is not a place, it is a condition of existence.

Pope John Paul II:

When I was a Mormon, I always thought Mormons had a belief very similar to purgatory regarding what happens in after we die. There aren’t many who arrive on the other side perfect and ready to be with God.

 

[ParkerD]

When I was a Mormon, I always thought Mormons had a belief very similar to purgatory regarding what happens in after we die. There aren’t many who arrive on the other side perfect and ready to be with God.

Good morning, Catholic20064,
The LDS belief is quite different on this particular doctrinal belief, as I believe Rebecca J had pointed out some time ago on a different thread. The LDS belief is that the unrepentant who have committed serious sins during their life, go to a place of torment and suffering for their own sins until the end of the Millenium, when they will be resurrected to a kingdom of glory after having finally accepted Christ and bowed the knee as prophesied in the Bible (“every knee shall bow”)–that kingdom called in the scriptures the “Telestial Kingdom”.

Those who lived good lives with love in their hearts for others but who did not experience the sanctification and purging “fire” during their lives because they did not have the fullness of the Holy Spirit, have that opportunity in the spirit world if they did not reject it during this life. That happens in the spirit world, but it is a joyful process of gaining knowledge, repenting through Christ’s atonement, and experiencing the “wiping away of all tears” through His grace and love. It is not a condition of suffering or torment, but of learning.

Those who did experience sanctification during this life will also be learning, of course, but they will have set their course and through the grace of Christ will have a condition of joy and rejoicing and continue on “unto the perfect day” to become like Christ, even as He promised. That sanctification that is described as “a refiner’s fire” by Malachi happens during this life for those with the Holy Spirit active in their lives. That’s why Christ was so urgent that His followers receive the Holy Ghost after His ascension into heaven, because He knew that His infinite suffering in Gethsemane and on the cross could only be fully efficacious if His followers had the Holy Spirit with them to cleanse their soul.

 

[sweetnay]

Good morning, Catholic20064,
The LDS belief is quite different on this particular doctrinal belief, as I believe Rebecca J had pointed out some time ago on a different thread. The LDS belief is that the unrepentant who have committed serious sins during their life, go to a place of torment and suffering for their own sins until the end of the Millenium, when they will be resurrected to a kingdom of glory after having finally accepted Christ and bowed the knee as prophesied in the Bible (“every knee shall bow”)–that kingdom called in the scriptures the “Telestial Kingdom”.

Those who lived good lives with love in their hearts for others but who did not experience the sanctification and purging “fire” during their lives because they did not have the fullness of the Holy Spirit, have that opportunity in the spirit world if they did not reject it during this life. That happens in the spirit world, but it is a joyful process of gaining knowledge, repenting through Christ’s atonement, and experiencing the “wiping away of all tears” through His grace and love. It is not a condition of suffering or torment, but of learning.

Those who did experience sanctification during this life will also be learning, of course, but they will have set their course and through the grace of Christ will have a condition of joy and rejoicing and continue on “unto the perfect day” to become like Christ, even as He promised. That sanctification that is described as “a refiner’s fire” by Malachi happens during this life for those with the Holy Spirit active in their lives. That’s why Christ was so urgent that His followers receive the Holy Ghost after His ascension into heaven, because He knew that His infinite suffering in Gethsemane and on the cross could only be fully efficacious if His followers had the Holy Spirit with them to cleanse their soul.

There’s that braid again, truth braided with error, dripping with compassion and feel good “ParkerDism’s”.

As long as mormons claim they are “christians” the gloves are off and we will defend True biblical Christianity and the True Christ till the end. Call it Righteous Anger.

 

[ParkerD]

There’s that braid again, truth braided with error, dripping with compassion and feel good “ParkerDism’s”.

As long as mormons claim they are “christians” the gloves are off and we will defend True biblical Christianity and the True Christ till the end. Call it Righteous Anger.

Hi, Sweetnay,
One could call it “righteous anger” thus fulfilling Isaiah 5:20, calling “evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!” Also fulfilling Isaiah 29:8, “even as when an hungry man dreameth, and, behold, he eateth; but he awaketh, and his soul is empty: or as when a thirsty man dreameth, and, behold, he drinketh; but he awaketh, and, behold, he is faint, and his soul hath appetite:”

Isaiah foresaw all of this, but was not bothered by it. Neither am I. Have a good day.

 

[dianaiad]

There’s that braid again, truth braided with error, dripping with compassion and feel good “ParkerDism’s”.

As long as mormons claim they are “christians” the gloves are off and we will defend True biblical Christianity and the True Christ till the end. Call it Righteous Anger.

Sweetnay, if we stopped claiming to be Christian, would you put the gloves back on? Or would you just forget the whole thing and go for the baseball bat?

 

[sweetnay]

Hi, Sweetnay,
One could call it “righteous anger” thus fulfilling Isaiah 5:20, calling “evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!” Also fulfilling Isaiah 29:8, “even as when an hungry man dreameth, and, behold, he eateth; but he awaketh, and his soul is empty: or as when a thirsty man dreameth, and, behold, he drinketh; but he awaketh, and, behold, he is faint, and his soul hath appetite:”

Isaiah foresaw all of this, but was not bothered by it. Neither am I. Have a good day.

Mormonism hijacked True Christianity and twisted it into the heresy we see today.
Don’t mistake those who rigorously defend Truth as malcontent or that the “fruits of the Spirit” are not evidenced in their lives–just like Jesus in the temple went after those who would defile it, so likewise we will defend Him and His Church from the Father of Lies and those who bought into the very first heresy propagated by Satan in the Garden-- and continue to spew it’s venom disguised as “religion” on this forum.
You haveth a great day as welleth!

 

[ParkerD]

Mormonism hijacked True Christianity and twisted it into the heresy we see today.
Don’t mistake those who rigorously defend Truth as malcontent or that the “fruits of the Spirit” are not evidenced in their lives–just like Jesus in the temple went after those who would defile it, so likewise we will defend Him and His Church from the Father of Lies and those who bought into the very first heresy propagated by Satan in the Garden-- and continue to spew it’s venom disguised as “religion” on this forum.
You haveth a great day as welleth!

Sweetnay,
I must admit, you do sound angry. Sorry to hear that is what the gospel means to you. I hope that changes for you someday. Have a nice day.

 

[mjf001]

Good morning, Catholic20064,
The LDS belief is quite different on this particular doctrinal belief, as I believe Rebecca J had pointed out some time ago on a different thread. The LDS belief is that the unrepentant who have committed serious sins during their life, go to a place of torment and suffering for their own sins until the end of the Millenium, when they will be resurrected to a kingdom of glory after having finally accepted Christ and bowed the knee as prophesied in the Bible (“every knee shall bow”)–that kingdom called in the scriptures the “Telestial Kingdom”.

Those who lived good lives with love in their hearts for others but who did not experience the sanctification and purging “fire” during their lives because they did not have the fullness of the Holy Spirit, have that opportunity in the spirit world if they did not reject it during this life. That happens in the spirit world, but it is a joyful process of gaining knowledge, repenting through Christ’s atonement, and experiencing the “wiping away of all tears” through His grace and love. It is not a condition of suffering or torment, but of learning.

Those who did experience sanctification during this life will also be learning, of course, but they will have set their course and through the grace of Christ will have a condition of joy and rejoicing and continue on “unto the perfect day” to become like Christ, even as He promised. That sanctification that is described as “a refiner’s fire” by Malachi happens during this life for those with the Holy Spirit active in their lives. That’s why Christ was so urgent that His followers receive the Holy Ghost after His ascension into heaven, because He knew that His infinite suffering in Gethsemane and on the cross could only be fully efficacious if His followers had the Holy Spirit with them to cleanse their soul.

This is, of course, the point I was trying to make in my original post on heaven or hell. There is no temporary hell. If one chooses hell, it’s forever. Since the Trinity are one, to be in the presence of one, is to be in the presence of all. So a heaven, divided into three parts, ruled over by one of the three persons of the Trinity, is from a Catholic point of view, illogical. There is one heaven, the reward is to be with God forever. There is one hell, and one way to get to that hell, and that hell is eternal. This is the Catholic point of view. On this, there can be no agreement between LDS and Catholic, no middle ground on these issues. Argue it all you want, but if we accepted your position, we would cease to be Catholic.
We don’t know exactly what heaven will look like/be like once we get there. We have hope, and trust in God that it well be what we need.

In Christ,
Michael

 

[ParkerD]

This is, of course, the point I was trying to make in my original post on heaven or hell. There is no temporary hell. If one chooses hell, it’s forever. Since the Trinity are one, to be in the presence of one, is to be in the presence of all. So a heaven, divided into three parts, ruled over by one of the three persons of the Trinity, is from a Catholic point of view, illogical. There is one heaven, the reward is to be with God forever. There is one hell, and one way to get to that hell, and that hell is eternal. This is the Catholic point of view. On this, there can be no agreement between LDS and Catholic, no middle ground on these issues. Argue it all you want, but if we accepted your position, we would cease to be Catholic.
We don’t know exactly what heaven will look like/be like once we get there. We have hope, and trust in God that it well be what we need.

In Christ,
Michael

Michael,
The Eternal Father rules over the entire universe. There is no “rule” in the separate kind of way you wrote about. Christ will be with the Father, a separate Person in very deed just as the Bible says, but completely unified with the Father. He will visit those in the Terrestrial glory from time to time, and they will feel His love and will glorify Him as well as the Father, but having not been sanctified to be in the presence of the Father, they would not be comfortable in His presence. They will have the presence of the Holy Ghost continually. Those in the Telestial glory will be in the presence of the Holy Ghost, to provide them with joy and light as they qualify to receive it. Those in the Celestial glory will have the presence and guidance of all three Persons and will rejoice in their presence.

All of this Christ and the apostles clearly taught. To be like Christ is to be One with Christ and One with the Father.

Have a good day. Beautiful weather!

 

[ricko]

When William was asked if he wanted to remove the cloth . he replied . “No, for father had just asked if he might not be permitted to do so, and Joseph, putting his hand on them said; ‘No, I am instructed not to show them to any one. If I do, I will transgress and lose them again.’ Besides, we did not care to have him break the commandment and suffer as he did before.” (Zion’s Ensign, p. 6, January 13, 1894, cited in Church of Christ broadside.)

“I am instructed not to show them to any one”

Ok, let’s hear the Mormon twist on this one. If he does not show them to anyone then how could anyone see them? Of course when a lie is invented nobody ever gets their story straight. The Holy Spirit came to me upon reading the BOM that it is a false testament .Man made religion, man made lies.

And for the three witnesses we have this:

That the Three Witnesses were a gullible sort is illustrated by an incident in July, 1837. Joseph had left on a five-week missionary tour to Canada, only to find on his return that all three of the Witnesses had joined a faction opposing him. This faction rallied around a young girl who claimed to be a seeress by virtue of a black stone in which she read the future. David Whitmer, Martin Harris, and Oliver Cowdery all pledged her their loyalty, and Frederick G. Williams, formerly Joseph’s First Counselor, became her scribe. The girl seeress would dance herself into a state of exhaustion, fall to the floor, and burst forth with revelations. (See Lucy Smith: Biographical Sketches, pp. 211-213).

Have a great day.

 

[sweetnay]

Sweetnay,
I must admit, you do sound angry. Sorry to hear that is what the gospel means to you. I hope that changes for you someday. Have a nice day.

And you sound brainwashed, I’m sorry that’s what the gospel means to you. Arm chair psychology is pointless and predictable-don’t mistake anger for passion!
I suppose you would have thought the same of Christ in the Temple “wow what’s that guys problem”…