Why are protestants afraid of the word "saint"?

[andzy]

I guess I also have questions about the effectiveness of the intercession of saints. If we ask God for something, we know that He will do the right thing. Is it not somewhat insulting to suggest that a saint might persuade God to grant our prayers. That seems to presume either (a) That God would not do what is right without the saint persuading Him or (b) that God could be changed from doing what is right by a saint persuading Him.

It is just as effective and “God’s-mind-changing” as prayers of those here, on this earth. Except, it is probably even more effective, as those saints are closer to God and more in communion with Him.

 

[brosam]

Mary is the source of our salvation. Or, that we haven’t read the Bible. Or that we believe in non-biblical things.

Actually, someone has already posted a Roman Catholic prayer to Mary that says that sinners put themselves in her hands for their salvation.

Are you a Catholic? Are you a part of the Catholic Church? Wouldn’t you expect that Catholics say they’re the True Church? (Wouldn’t you expect any Protestant to believe it about their church?) But that doesn’t mean that Protestants aren’t Christians. Do you see the difference?

The difference is that Protestants recognize that Roman Catholicism is a branch of the same church.

What Catholic ever prayed to a statue?

Every year at Christmas time, I have out of town relatives who want to go to Manhatten. Every year, when we go, we literally have to step over Roman Catholics kneeling before statues and praying to them.

A Sola Fide believing Protestant.

And what part of sola fide teaches this?

Does your Bible tells to follow the Scriptures alone?

No.

What is hypocritical and playing the victim? Not letting people get away with falsely accusing the Church of what it is not, and what it doesn’t believe?

No, claiming that we’re not “churches in the true sense” and don’t have the means of salvation, but then pretending to be attacked when somebody questions Roman Catholicism.

Haven’t you ever been condemned to hell by a Protestant, because you didn’t happen to agree with his interpretation of the Scripture?QUOTE]

No, but I’ve sure had many Roman Catholics tell me I’m not saved because I’m not a Roman Catholic.

 

[andzy]

Brosam, I’m not going to continue this silly personal debate with you, but if you’re truly interested in a debate regarding various topics you’ve raised, why don’t you browse existing threads and post a new one, if you don’t find an answer there that would clarify some of your misunderstandings about the Catholic Church?
Returning back to the original question: do you use the word “saint” in your conversations, and if not, then why? (I understand from your previous post that you’re not afraid of it).

 

[ThereseMarie]

QUOTE=unacanta;2745339] Not to interject here, but your logic that “She gave birth to the SAVIOR OF THE WORLD” would logically lead to Pilate whom sentence Christ to death on the cross also has part of salvation. After all, according to your logic, Christ would never have died had he not sentenced him just as He would not had life if Mary had not utter the words "be it unto me"

**Maybe I am not following you correctly. I never said that without Mary we wouldn’t have been saved. All I did was state a fact: Mary gave birth to Jesus. She is the Theotokos. For that, she is significant and deserves honor. To say, as Mr Brosam said, that she has nothing to do with our salvation is just not factual. She did have something to do with it. Don’t you agree? I guess my intention was to answer this guy who, to me, was putting Mary down, in saying her part in the salvation of mankind was nothing, or insignificant. If you read that guy’s posts, some of them are really mean (in my opinion, as a Catholic). Pontius Pilate played a part too, although a very wicked one. **

QUOTE Salvation is a gift from God through the man Christ, He needs no help in administering it.

**I never said God needed help doing anything. All I said was that “she gave birth to the SAVIOR OF THE WORLD” and in doing this she had something to do with our salvation. I am not saying she redeemed us herself personally, but she had something to do with the Redemption. How was I wrong?

BTW, according to St Paul, we ourselves have a part in our own salvation. Does he not admonish us to “work out your salvation in fear and trembling?”**

My fellow Catholics, am I saying something wrong here? I love the Blessed Mother, but I don’t think she is God. I give her the respect I give people who deserve respect. I think to trivialize her part in the Redemption by saying “she has nothing to do with salvation” or worse, disrespect her, is wrong. Would my husband trivialize my part in giving birth to my children? God’s will was that these precious children have life. He needs no help doing anything and he is the Creator of all life. Does that mean I had no part in giving them life?

 

[twosweetgirls]

ThereseMarie for President.

 

[BrewMax]

QUOTE=unacanta;2745339] Not to interject here, but your logic that “She gave birth to the SAVIOR OF THE WORLD” would logically lead to Pilate whom sentence Christ to death on the cross also has part of salvation. After all, according to your logic, Christ would never have died had he not sentenced him just as He would not had life if Mary had not utter the words "be it unto me"

Maybe I am not following you correctly. I never said that without Mary we wouldn’t have been saved. All I did was state a fact: Mary gave birth to Jesus. She is the Theotokos. For that, she is significant and deserves honor. To say, as Mr Brosam said, that she has nothing to do with our salvation is just not factual. She did have something to do with it. Don’t you agree? I guess my intention was to answer this guy who, to me, was putting Mary down, in saying her part in the salvation of mankind was nothing, or insignificant. If you read that guy’s posts, some of them are really mean (in my opinion, as a Catholic). Pontius Pilate played a part too, although a very wicked one.

QUOTE Salvation is a gift from God through the man Christ, He needs no help in administering it.

**I never said God needed help doing anything. All I said was that “she gave birth to the SAVIOR OF THE WORLD” and in doing this she had something to do with our salvation. I am not saying she redeemed us herself personally, but she had something to do with the Redemption. How was I wrong?

BTW, according to St Paul, we ourselves** have a part in our own salvation. Does he not admonish us to “work out your salvation in fear and trembling?”

My fellow Catholics, am I saying something wrong here? I love the Blessed Mother, but I don’t think she is God. I give her the respect I give people who deserve respect. I think to trivialize her part in the Redemption by saying “she has nothing to do with salvation” or worse, disrespect her, is wrong. Would my husband trivialize my part in giving birth to my children? God’s will was that these precious children have life. He needs no help doing anything and he is the Creator of all life. Does that mean I had no part in giving them life?

Did Mary actually give birth to God? I think that the logical answer is no based on the Bible saying that God always was and always will be. John 1:1 says that in the beginning was the Word and it goes on to say that the Word was God. Jesus became incarnate from the virgin Mary as the creed says but why do so many still call her the mother of God?

 

[brosam]

Did Mary actually give birth to God? I think that the logical answer is no based on the Bible saying that God always was and always will be. John 1:1 says that in the beginning was the Word and it goes on to say that the Word was God. Jesus became incarnate from the virgin Mary as the creed says but why do so many still call her the mother of God?

If the Roman Catholic is going to claim that Mary is the “mother of God”, then they must either claim that Mary is also the mother of God the Father and God the Holy Spirit, or they’re preaching polytheism.

Now, Brewmax, they’re going to accuse me of Arianism and I’ll get to refute that, too.

 

[BrewMax]

If the Roman Catholic is going to claim that Mary is the “mother of God”, then they must either claim that Mary is also the mother of God the Father and God the Holy Spirit, or they’re preaching polytheism.

Now, Brewmax, they’re going to accuse me of Arianism and I’ll get to refute that, too.

If Jesus is God which we all know that he is, then Mary could not possibly be the mother of God right? Jesus became incarnate from the virgin Mary. Mary was the mother of Jesus in the flesh. This is my take on it anyway.

 

[lak611]

If the Roman Catholic is going to claim that Mary is the “mother of God”, then they must either claim that Mary is also the mother of God the Father and God the Holy Spirit, or they’re preaching polytheism.

Now, Brewmax, they’re going to accuse me of Arianism and I’ll get to refute that, too.

No, you are not advocating the Arian heresy, but rather, the heresey of Nestorianism which says:

This heresy about the person of Christ was initiated by Nestorius, bishop of Constantinople, who denied Mary the title of Theotokos (Greek: “God-bearer” or, less literally, “Mother of God”). Nestorius claimed that she only bore Christ’s human nature in her womb, and proposed the alternative title Christotokos (“Christ-bearer” or “Mother of Christ”).

Here is a thread that discusses the Nestorian heresy.

 

[Harpazo]

If the Roman Catholic is going to claim that Mary is the “mother of God”, then they must either claim that Mary is also the mother of God the Father and God the Holy Spirit, or they’re preaching polytheism.

Now, Brewmax, they’re going to accuse me of Arianism and I’ll get to refute that, too.

My friend, why do you talk to us as if we aren’t even people? Constantly I’ve seen you refer to us as “the Roman Catholic.” Why such animosity in your posts?

It’s rather quite simple, and for you to deny one aspect of it, means you deny the Divinity of Christ, Our Lord.

Mary bore Jesus in her womb
Jesus is God
Mary is the Mother of God

How much more straighforward could it get?

Pace e Bene
Andrew

 

[Sixtus]

So, the Bible says that they’re dead, but you insist that they’re not. Why should I take your word over the Bible?

Because you cannot use the Scriptures against the Church whose Scriptures they are.

The Sciptures support the Church not the other way around.

Jesus Himself said of Issac Moses and Abraham: ‘God is God of the living not of the dead!’

Now if they are alive even though they have died, then we may assume that others also even though they died are also alive. In fact that is exactly what Christ said: ‘Even though you shall die, yet shall you live’…and ‘everyone is infact alive to God’

 

[ThereseMarie]

If the Roman Catholic is going to claim that Mary is the “mother of God”, then they must either claim that Mary is also the mother of God the Father and God the Holy Spirit, or they’re preaching polytheism.

**I just don’t understand you. What is a woman called who gives birth to a baby?? I delivered babies for 11 years, and we always called the women “MOTHERS”. Mary is the mother of God the Son. Why do you think that our puny little human minds have any ability at all to understand everything that the Almighty Omnipotent Omniscient One has done? Better yet, show me where it says in the Bible that He said we would understand everything He does.

What I love about Catholicism is the humility. We understand that there are certain mysteries that we cannot possibly understand. How do you understand a Divine Mind with a human mind? ***

 

[Sixtus]

brosam;2749630:

If the Roman Catholic is going to claim that Mary is the “mother of God”, then they must either claim that Mary is also the mother of God the Father and God the Holy Spirit, or they’re preaching polytheism.

**I just don’t understand you. What is a woman called who gives birth to a baby?? I delivered babies for 11 years, and we always called the women “MOTHERS”. Mary is the mother of God the Son. Why do you think that our puny little human minds have any ability at all to understand everything that the Almighty Omnipotent Omniscient One has done? Better yet, show me where it says in the Bible that He said we would understand everything He does.

What I love about Catholicism is the humility. We understand that there are certain mysteries that we cannot possibly understand. How do you understand a Divine Mind with a human mind? **

Agree with everything you have said.

But God the Son is present in God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. God is a co-equal Trinity. So by definition the Mother of God the Son Incarnate is also God the Son Infinite and by definition the rest of the Trinity.

God the Father has no humanity. But He is manifested in the Incarnate Humanity of His Son Jesus said ‘to see me is to see the Father’ in other words: the Father is manifested in the Son.As we say in that great Epiphany hymn: ‘God in man made manifest’

Incredible and awesome though it is, but the uncreated eternal unfathomable awesome omnipresent God paradoxically also has a creature He can call ‘Mother’!

That is one of the reasons why we pay such great honour to Mary, not just for the flesh she bore, as if that were not enough but also His relationship to the rest of the Holy Trinity: MARY THE MOTHER OF GOD

That also elevates Mary beyond the mother of mere Incarnate Flesh. Now that really is awesome

 

[ThereseMarie]

But God the Son is present in God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. God is a co-equal Trinity. So by definition the Mother of God the Son Incarnate is also God the Son Infinite and by definition the rest of the Trinity.

God the Father has no humanity. But He is manifested in the Incarnate Humanity of His Son

*

 

[Techno2000]

Actually, it means that there are those who SAY they believe in Christ but they do not. Their lives are a facade.

Some of these are probably televangelists who aren’t in it to spread the word of God but to get rich. It’s sad really.

Hi Singinbeauty,
Yeah , that’s how I interpret that scripture, its about "Charlatan " Christians I would say.

 

[Sixtus]

Sixtus;2750076:

But God the Son is present in God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. God is a co-equal Trinity. So by definition the Mother of God the Son Incarnate is also God the Son Infinite and by definition the rest of the Trinity.

God the Father has no humanity. But He is manifested in the Incarnate Humanity of His Son

Amen

For the same reason they are afraid of our devotion to Mary

God the Son is present in God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. God is a co-equal Trinity. So by definition the Mother of God the Son Incarnate is also God the Son Infinite and by definition the rest of the Trinity.

God the Father has no humanity. But He is manifested in the Incarnate Humanity of His Son Jesus said ‘to see me is to see the Father’ in other words: the Father is manifested in the Son.As we say in that great Epiphany hymn: ‘God in man made manifest’

Incredible and awesome though it is, but the uncreated eternal unfathomable awesome omnipresent God paradoxically also has a creature He can call ‘Mother’!

That is one of the reasons why we pay such great honour to Mary, not just for the flesh she bore, as if that were not enough but also His relationship to the rest of the Holy Trinity: MARY THE MOTHER OF GOD

That also elevates Mary beyond the mother of mere Incarnate Flesh. Now that really is awesome

 

[ThereseMarie]

*

Agree with everything you have said.

But God the Son is present in God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. God is a co-equal Trinity. So by definition the Mother of God the Son Incarnate is also God the Son Infinite and by definition the rest of the Trinity.

God the Father has no humanity. But He is manifested in the Incarnate Humanity of His Son Jesus said ‘to see me is to see the Father’ in other words: the Father is manifested in the Son.As we say in that great Epiphany hymn: ‘God in man made manifest’

Incredible and awesome though it is, but the uncreated eternal unfathomable awesome omnipresent God paradoxically also has a creature He can call ‘Mother’!

That is one of the reasons why we pay such great honour to Mary, not just for the flesh she bore, as if that were not enough but also His relationship to the rest of the Holy Trinity: MARY THE MOTHER OF GOD

That also elevates Mary beyond the mother of mere Incarnate Flesh. Now that really is awesome *

Yes, yes, yes. She is the Theotokos. I didn’t mean to imply that the Son is not one with the Father and the Spirit.

 

[Sixtus]

Sixtus;2750076:

Yes, yes, yes. She is the Theotokos. I didn’t mean to imply that the Son is not one with the Father and the Spirit.

Amen Sister

Orthodoxy expresses it so succinctly and is one of the most beautiful concepts I have ever come across.

 

[BrewMax]

*

Agree with everything you have said.

But God the Son is present in God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. God is a co-equal Trinity. So by definition the Mother of God the Son Incarnate is also God the Son Infinite and by definition the rest of the Trinity.

God the Father has no humanity. But He is manifested in the Incarnate Humanity of His Son Jesus said ‘to see me is to see the Father’ in other words: the Father is manifested in the Son.As we say in that great Epiphany hymn: ‘God in man made manifest’

Incredible and awesome though it is, but the uncreated eternal unfathomable awesome omnipresent God paradoxically also has a creature He can call ‘Mother’!

That is one of the reasons why we pay such great honour to Mary, not just for the flesh she bore, as if that were not enough but also His relationship to the rest of the Holy Trinity: MARY THE MOTHER OF GOD

That also elevates Mary beyond the mother of mere Incarnate Flesh. Now that really is awesome *

I understand all of what you said here except for the fact that God was not created. How could human flesh give birth to God? Jesus always was, because he is God. John 1 says this clearly. Mary was chosen for Jesus to become incarnate from.

 

[Sixtus]

Sixtus;2750076:

I understand all of what you said here except for the fact that God was not created. How could human flesh give birth to God? Jesus always was, because he is God. John 1 says this clearly. Mary was chosen for Jesus to become incarnate from.

ThereseMarie quoted is so succinctly from the Orthodox perspective: She is the Theotokos.

Jesus in Jn also claimed equality with God Jn 5:18

God the Father has no flesh but He is manifested in His Son who is both God Incarnate [the flesh of Mary] and God the Infinite [second person of the Most Holy Trinity]. In the Trinity, God is co -Equal.

So that in God made flesh is also the unfleshly uncreated God.
The uncreated God is manifested in the God Incarnate. God cannot be divided so that means that Mary is both Mother of God Incarnate and Mother of God infinite since infinity is manifested in Incarnate.

She is the Theotokos. Astonishing but that is a paradox which Catholics and Orthodox understand so well yet seems to elude the rest of Christendom