Why are protestants afraid of the word "saint"?

[eliasaph99]

I looked up the number of churches in our Annual Conference (akin to a diocese) with the word “Saint” in them: there were 13. And we are a small conference.

Also, the Apostles’ Creed affirms saints: “I believe in… the communion of the saints.”

So where are we afraid, Lou?

More anti-Protestant rhetoric.

O+

I think that you’re response is a little heavy handed.

I don’t think that the author’s intent was really to spread anti-Protestant rhetoric.

When most Catholics think of Protestants, they think of Billy Graham and prominent evangelicals. These people often do make alot of hay out of non-issues, like us using the word ‘Saint’ as an honorific title.

The evangelical and non-denominational movement is growing quickly and is probably the most visible face of non-Catholic Christianity today.

However, your point is well taken, the original question could be improved on by narrowing the targeted audience.

 

[AgnosTheist]

I think protestants are more into sainthood than catholics. They even have a song that goes like this:

Oh when the saints
go marching in

When the saints
go marching in

Oh how I love
to be in their number!

When the saints
go marching in.

 

[donnyblake]

If only more Protestants read St. Therese of the Child Jesus’ autobiography, “Story of a Soul”. This might convince them of Saints. Here is a passage from Ch. 5 which stands out to me:

“One evening, not knowing in what words to tell Our Lord how much I
loved him, and how much I wished that He was served and honoured
everywhere, I thought sorrowfully that from the depths of hell
there does not go up to Him one single act of love. Then, from my
inmost heart, I cried out that I would gladly be cast into that
place of torment and blasphemy so that He might be eternally loved
even there. This could not be for His Glory, since He only wishes
our happiness, but love feels the need of saying foolish things.
If I spoke in this way, it was not that I did not long to go to
Heaven, but for me Heaven was nothing else than Love, and in my
ardour I felt that nothing could separate me from the Divine Being
Who held me captive.”

 

[AgnosTheist]

^ I cant imagine how that piece of drama would convince any non-catholics of ‘saints’. Some protestants believe that they are saints themselves and are incredibly devoted to their spirituality.

 

[Harpazo]

I looked up the number of churches in our Annual Conference (akin to a diocese) with the word “Saint” in them: there were 13. And we are a small conference.

Also, the Apostles’ Creed affirms saints: “I believe in… the communion of the saints.”

So where are we afraid, Lou?

More anti-Protestant rhetoric.

O+

I don’t know of any Methodist ecclesial communities that use “Saint XX” for any other Saint besides those mentioned explicitly mentioned in the bible, however that’s besides the point.

What is the official Methodist/Weslyan teaching on the Communion of Saints, other than its place in the Apostle’s Creed? I’ve never heard of a Methodist minister advocate that we are surrounded by a Communion of Saints and that they intercede for us, or read anywhere such a thing. I could be wrong, though. Would a Methodist/Weslyan be free to have a Patron Saint, posess relics of a Saint, or ask for the intercession of a particular Saint? Seeing how the Methodists are a break from Anglicanism, one would expect there to be more clarity on the subject.

Please don’t label me as attacking. I’m curious.

In Pax Christi
Andrew

 

[Atemi]

The Scriptures most certainly do say that not everyone who calls out “Lord, Lord” will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. This means that there are those who believe who will not be saved.

You said:

“Not all people who believe in Christ are saints as the Bible itself states”

The Bible says no such thing anywhere.

The Bible does say that all those that cry “Lord, Lord” will not necessarily saved.

There is a very big difference there.

…

 

[Singinbeauty]

The Scriptures most certainly do say that not everyone who calls out “Lord, Lord” will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. This means that there are those who believe who will not be saved.

Actually, it means that there are those who SAY they believe in Christ but they do not. Their lives are a facade.

20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

21"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’

Some of these are probably televangelists who aren’t in it to spread the word of God but to get rich. It’s sad really.

 

[eliasaph99]

^ I cant imagine how that piece of drama would convince any non-catholics of ‘saints’. Some protestants believe that they are saints themselves and are incredibly devoted to their spirituality.

If you would go back and read my earlier post on the distinction between ‘saints’ and ‘Saints’, you would see that, in the way you are making your statement, you arguing against nothing.

The point donnyblake is making is that some people are worthy of being held up as good Christian models because of their phenomenal devotion. Some others are held up because of their phenomenal works of charity.

Also, you should not belittle St. Therese’s writings. She is a Doctor of the Universal Church and held in very high esteem.

 

[Fuerza]

You said:

“Not all people who believe in Christ are saints as the Bible itself states”

The Bible says no such thing anywhere.

The Bible does say that all those that cry “Lord, Lord” will not necessarily saved.

There is a very big difference there.

…

Hence I stated that I may have miscommunicated my point.

 

[brosam]

Should calling a chief justice “honorable” (in particular those who respect the moral law) be considered a sacrilege? Of course not. Why should someone choose to be so scrupulous? Why are you protestants so afraid of the word “saint”? Are you afraid of being viewed as less protestant if you give more honor to men and women who set a prime example of what a follower of Christ should be or do? Are you afraid of having more in common with Catholicism? Is there a hidden resentment or envy toward the word saint for God giving them more grace than you? Are you just very uncomfortable with humility? For whatever the reason, be honest with yourself. Don’t be afraid of respecting or complimenting God’s grace. You are missing a treasure by not reading the lives of them. The inspiration and fire of the spirit their lives can spark in yours as a follower of Christ is immense! Do what has to be done, it is not happiness, it is greatness.

We’re not afraid of it at all. In fact, we refer to Christians as “saints” all the time. We just don’t buy into the Roman Catholic silliness that there are special people who are given special spiritual authority after their death.

 

[andzy]

We’re not afraid of it at all. In fact, we refer to Christians as “saints” all the time. We just don’t buy into the Roman Catholic silliness that there are special people who are given special spiritual authority after their death.

And another misunderstanding of the Catholic Church…

 

[brosam]

And another misunderstanding of the Catholic Church…

You’re telling me that Roman Catholics don’t canonize dead Roman Catholics and bestow the title of “saint” upon them, and believe that they have authority over specific areas of life?

 

[unacanta]

And another misunderstanding of the Catholic Church…

One of the worst mis-understandings by Protestants is that Catholics worship saints and of course the ever tough question of Mary.

Let us take a look at this prayer. Is it a prayer of help from the Blessed Mother, or is the supplicant actually trusting in her for what they should be trusting in Jesus.

[SIGN]O Mother of Perpetual Help, thou art the dispenser of all the goods which God grants to us miserable sinners, and for this reason he has made thee so powerful, so rich, and so bountiful, that thou mayest help us in our misery. Thou art the advocate of the most wretched and abandoned sinners who have recourse to thee. Come then, to my help, dearest Mother, for I recommend myself to thee. In thy hands I place my eternal salvation and to thee do I entrust my soul. Count me among thy most devoted servants; take me under thy protection, and it is enough for me. For, if thou protect me, dear Mother, I fear nothing; not from my sins, because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them; nor from the devils, because thou art more powerful than all hell together; nor even from Jesus, my Judge himself, because by one prayer from thee he will be appeased. But one thing I fear, that in the hour of temptation I may neglect to call on thee and thus perish miserably. Obtain for me, then, the pardon of my sins, love for Jesus, final perseverance, and the grace always to have recourse to thee, O Mother of Perpetual Help[/SIGN]
As a Protestant I begin to wonder is this worship, or just a call for Mary to pray for us. Let us look ast some points in the prayer.

1. Come then, to my help, dearest Mother, for I recommend myself to thee. In thy hands I place my eternal salvation and to thee do I entrust my soul

The person praying places their eternal salvation into Mary’s hands, but also their soul. The bible clearly teaches salvation comes from no other than Jesus.

1. I fear nothing; not from my sins, because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them;

Now, they don’t fear nothing, even their sins because Mary will obtain a pardon. Again, Jesus is the only one who can pardon sin. Bible teaching is again clear that our sin is forgiven through faith and belief in Christ. We do not need anyone other than Him.

1. because thou art more powerful than all hell together

This part I totally agree with, Mary just as every other believer was given dominion over demons by the the power of Christ blood. The person fearing “devils” should take authority over them and cast them out.

1. nor even from Jesus, my Judge himself

Now we see the supplicant fearing Jesus the very author of their faith. It is the His blood which purchased them freedom. Now they fear him??

To conclude, if I pray this pray I entrust my soul, salvation, give up my authority over demons which Christ gave, fear the one who freed me from sin all is placed in our Blessed Mother’s hands.

I can see why some Protestants would jump to the conclusion that Catholics worship Mary.

No thanks, I will stick to trusting in only Jesus. No one should question whom I worship. There are reasons the Reformers had several “solas” in their doctrine.
Una

 

[brosam]

One of the worst mis-understandings by Protestants is that Catholics worship saints and of course the ever tough question of Mary.

Let us take a look at this prayer. Is it a prayer of help from the Blessed Mother, or is the supplicant actually trusting in her for what they should be trusting in Jesus.

[SIGN]O Mother of Perpetual Help, thou art the dispenser of all the goods which God grants to us miserable sinners, and for this reason he has made thee so powerful, so rich, and so bountiful, that thou mayest help us in our misery. Thou art the advocate of the most wretched and abandoned sinners who have recourse to thee. Come then, to my help, dearest Mother, for I recommend myself to thee. In thy hands I place my eternal salvation and to thee do I entrust my soul. Count me among thy most devoted servants; take me under thy protection, and it is enough for me. For, if thou protect me, dear Mother, I fear nothing; not from my sins, because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them; nor from the devils, because thou art more powerful than all hell together; nor even from Jesus, my Judge himself, because by one prayer from thee he will be appeased. But one thing I fear, that in the hour of temptation I may neglect to call on thee and thus perish miserably. Obtain for me, then, the pardon of my sins, love for Jesus, final perseverance, and the grace always to have recourse to thee, O Mother of Perpetual Help[/SIGN]
As a Protestant I begin to wonder is this worship, or just a call for Mary to pray for us. Let us look ast some points in the prayer.

1. Come then, to my help, dearest Mother, for I recommend myself to thee. In thy hands I place my eternal salvation and to thee do I entrust my soul

The person praying places their eternal salvation into Mary’s hands, but also their soul. The bible clearly teaches salvation comes from no other than Jesus.

1. I fear nothing; not from my sins, because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them;

Now, they don’t fear nothing, even their sins because Mary will obtain a pardon. Again, Jesus is the only one who can pardon sin. Bible teaching is again clear that our sin is forgiven through faith and belief in Christ. We do not need anyone other than Him.

1. because thou art more powerful than all hell together

This part I totally agree with, Mary just as every other believer was given dominion over demons by the the power of Christ blood. The person fearing “devils” should take authority over them and cast them out.

1. nor even from Jesus, my Judge himself

Now we see the supplicant fearing Jesus the very author of their faith. It is the His blood which purchased them freedom. Now they fear him??

To conclude, if I pray this pray I entrust my soul, salvation, give up my authority over demons which Christ gave, fear the one who freed me from sin all is placed in our Blessed Mother’s hands.

I can see why some Protestants would jump to the conclusion that Catholics worship Mary.

No thanks, I will stick to trusting in only Jesus. No one should question whom I worship. There are reasons the Reformers had several “solas” in their doctrine.
Una

So, even though the Bible says that Jesus is our advocate, you dismiss this and choose to believe that Mary is your advocate?

You’re telling me that, even though the Bible tells us that it is Jesus and Jesus alone who saves, you’re going to pray to this dead woman to save you? When did Mary die on a cross for your sins?

 

[Hellisreal]

I think you are confusing the word that denotes ALL Christ followers (saints) and the special title some churches have bestowed on only an elite few they alone have deemed worthy of such (Saints).

The Apostolic method is the former, not the latter.

…

This explains the special titles of so many protestant liturgical denoms who use it to name their church. St so and so dead saint that cant hear your prayers church, St always was a catholic church, ect.

Wannabees.

 

[andzy]

We’re not afraid of it at all. In fact, we refer to Christians as “saints” all the time. We just don’t buy into the Roman Catholic silliness that there are special people who are given special spiritual authority after their death.
andzy;2738143:

And another misunderstanding of the Catholic Church…

You’re telling me that Roman Catholics don’t canonize dead Roman Catholics and bestow the title of “saint” upon them, and believe that they have authority over specific areas of life?

I’m saying that you seem to be misunderstanding who saints are and why the Church canonizes saints.
Here is an article that gives a short explanation of this “Roman Catholic silliness”.

 

[andzy]

So, even though the Bible says that Jesus is our advocate, you dismiss this and choose to believe that Mary is your advocate?

You’re telling me that, even though the Bible tells us that it is Jesus and Jesus alone who saves, you’re going to pray to this dead woman to save you? When did Mary die on a cross for your sins?

And yet another misunderstanding of the Catholic Church…
No, Mary doesn’t save anybody. The problem about this (as with other Catholic doctrines) is that Protestants and Catholics are speaking different languages and even have different world views (theologically). For Protestants it is “one or the other”, whereas for Catholics it can be “and or”.
For example, a Protestant would say: I have to choose between Mary and Jesus, and so I choose Jesus, so I’m not getting into idolatry and putting somebody above Christ. But a Catholic would say: I don’t have to choose between Mary and Jesus; I worship Jesus, and I also honor Mary, who brings me closer to Jesus.
So, anything exalting Mary or other saints means idolatry to Protestant, but a Catholic knows that it is not the case, and that all “powers” that saints have come from God (they are God’s vessels), and thus by honoring saints we don’t honor them as much, as God who works through them.

 

[why_me]

You’re telling me that Roman Catholics don’t canonize dead Roman Catholics and bestow the title of “saint” upon them, and believe that they have authority over specific areas of life?

I can also tell you that catholics look upon saints as examples to follow. They are a ‘real’ human path to holiness. Of course, one can see and follow christ to holiness but saints were just like us, human beings, who seemed to emulate christ-like qualities. To see their example, should give heart to humans that a saintlike, holy life can be done.

 

[why_me]

Recently Bayless Conley mentioned the ‘saints’ in even who are cheering for us to endure to the end. For him, the saints were those who led a good christlike life on earth. He read off names as examples of saints. These names were of christian people pastors etc who have passed on.

I felt that it was very catholic of him to do so. I do believe that the protestants will begin to embrace the concept of sainthood as an example of christlike qualities practiced by people while living.

 

[why_me]

So, even though the Bible says that Jesus is our advocate, you dismiss this and choose to believe that Mary is your advocate?

You’re telling me that, even though the Bible tells us that it is Jesus and Jesus alone who saves, you’re going to pray to this dead woman to save you? When did Mary die on a cross for your sins?

I would hope for as many advocates as possible. The more advocates for my soul, the better it is for me on this earth. I would hope that I have saints not only cheering for me, but who are also my advocates with the father. I can see no harm in asking Mary and other saints for help. All were human beings and know the human experience first hand.