Why are protestants afraid of the word "saint"?

[Grace_Seeker]

Christ was not born soul-less as you are suggesting.

I don’t believe I ever made such a suggestion.

But now that you have mentioned it, do you believe that Jesus had a soul that needed to be saved? My understanding is that Jesus was in everyway human just as you and I are, and that he was God in every aspect as well, and that these two natures were both fully present in the one historic person known as Jesus of Nazareth. But I don’t read in scripture where that means that Jesus has two separate spiritual aspects to his life a human soul and a divine spirit. Is that what you are suggesting?

As mercygate reminds us above, we are in fact all eternal beings, for we are all created as spiritual beings meant for an eternity with God (and sadly seperated by sin to spend an eternity apart from God, save for our redemption). But Christ was not created in the same way we are. His flesh was created, but the Son pre-existed as an eternal spiritual being from before the creation of the world. This spiritual being took on flesh and became incarnate in Mary, the Theotokos (the term doesn’t bother me at all). So, Jesus has two natures, a human nature and a divine nature. He has two wills even. But he has just one being. There is not both a human soul and a divine spirit equally present in the one man Jesus, that is not what I understand Chalcedon sat forth.

 

[unacanta]

QUOTE=unacanta;2745339] Not to interject here, but your logic that “She gave birth to the SAVIOR OF THE WORLD” would logically lead to Pilate whom sentence Christ to death on the cross also has part of salvation. After all, according to your logic, Christ would never have died had he not sentenced him just as He would not had life if Mary had not utter the words "be it unto me"

Maybe I am not following you correctly. I never said that without Mary we wouldn’t have been saved. All I did was state a fact: Mary gave birth to Jesus. She is the Theotokos. For that, she is significant and deserves honor. To say, as Mr Brosam said, that she has nothing to do with our salvation is just not factual. She did have something to do with it. Don’t you agree? I guess my intention was to answer this guy who, to me, was putting Mary down, in saying her part in the salvation of mankind was nothing, or insignificant. If you read that guy’s posts, some of them are really mean (in my opinion, as a Catholic). Pontius Pilate played a part too, although a very wicked one.

QUOTE Salvation is a gift from God through the man Christ, He needs no help in administering it.

**I never said God needed help doing anything. All I said was that “she gave birth to the SAVIOR OF THE WORLD” and in doing this she had something to do with our salvation. I am not saying she redeemed us herself personally, but she had something to do with the Redemption. How was I wrong?

BTW, according to St Paul, we ourselves** have a part in our own salvation. Does he not admonish us to “work out your salvation in fear and trembling?”

My fellow Catholics, am I saying something wrong here? I love the Blessed Mother, but I don’t think she is God. I give her the respect I give people who deserve respect. I think to trivialize her part in the Redemption by saying “she has nothing to do with salvation” or worse, disrespect her, is wrong. Would my husband trivialize my part in giving birth to my children? God’s will was that these precious children have life. He needs no help doing anything and he is the Creator of all life. Does that mean I had no part in giving them life?

LOL, I am not quite sure if he “was putting Mary down”, I simply responded to what seemed to be your emphases on Mary giving birth to Jesus. I pray your forgiveness if I misunderstood, considering your post I did.

Perhaps you would like to shed some light on the following post I made here. We might even be able to have the moderator take it to a new post or subject. I work in prison ministry and I would like to have the myth that Catholics worship Mary dispelled.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=2739285&postcount=33

 

[ThereseMarie]

I pray your forgiveness if I misunderstood, considering your post I did.

No offense taken, I am just passionate about Our Lady and giving her the respect she deserves. In this town, defending Mary is like being in New York and trying to defend George W. Bush (which is something I have also attempted to do, with zero success )

Perhaps you would like to shed some light on the following post I made here. We might even be able to have the moderator take it to a new post or subject. I work in prison ministry and I would like to have the myth that Catholics worship Mary dispelled.

**I will read you post as soon as I can, but in the meantime, suffice it to say that Catholics do not worship Mary. It’s very simple. Nowhere in the Catechism or Sacred Tradition, or the Bible are we told to worship anyone other than God. I don’t understand why it is so hard to dispel the Mary worship myth. Why not just say, “Catholics don’t worship Mary. That is something made up by people ignorant of the Catholic Faith.”

Anyone who calls himself “Catholic” and worships Mary is not a true Catholic, and commits a grave sin against God’s law. ***

 

[Grace_Seeker]

I work in prison ministry and I would like to have the myth that Catholics worship Mary dispelled.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=2739285&postcount=33

I’m not Catholic, but look at the creeds of the Church. Even many non-Catholics are familiar with the Apostles’ Creed. You will find that “we believe in… God the father,… Jesus Christ, [and]…the Holy Spirit.” Regarding Mary, Catholics and protestants alike believe only that Jesus was “born of the Virgin Mary”.

 

[unacanta]

I’m not Catholic, but look at the creeds of the Church. Even many non-Catholics are familiar with the Apostles’ Creed. You will find that “we believe in… God the father,… Jesus Christ, [and]…the Holy Spirit.” Regarding Mary, Catholics and protestants alike believe only that Jesus was “born of the Virgin Mary”.

I am not quite sure I understand your point. The prayer to Mary I had referenced actually places the supplicant whom is praying it in a position where they are trusting their salvation and soul in Mary rather than Jesus

I am quoting from the prayer its self.
[SIGN]“In thy hands I place my eternal salvation and to thee do I entrust my soul.”[/SIGN]

This prayer is taught by the RCC so it is easy to see why Protestants say that Catholics worship Mary. I have found Catholics are always quick to say they have veneration for the Saints and Mary, but not worship. The text in the prayer says different.

Blessings,
Len

 

[Grace_Seeker]

Yeah, I can see your point with that prayer. When you said, “I would like to have the myth that Catholics worship Mary dispelled.” I thought you accepted that concept, held by some protestants, to indeed be a myth. And were looking for ways to present the concept of what/who Catholics do indeed worship. I think the creeds are one way to say, this is who we worship, and one doesn’t see Mary mentioned there. The line in your prayer is troubling, but I can’t speak to it. Glad I don’t have to. I’ll let those who are Catholic address it for themselves.

Just a thought, if you don’t get much help here, you might PM guanophore, I’ve gotten more constructive comments from him than any other Catholic on this forum.

 

[unacanta]

Yeah, I can see your point with that prayer. When you said, “I would like to have the myth that Catholics worship Mary dispelled.” I thought you accepted that concept, held by some protestants, to indeed be a myth. And were looking for ways to present the concept of what/who Catholics do indeed worship. I think the creeds are one way to say, this is who we worship, and one doesn’t see Mary mentioned there. The line in your prayer is troubling, but I can’t speak to it. Glad I don’t have to. I’ll let those who are Catholic address it for themselves.

Just a thought, if you don’t get much help here, you might PM guanophore, I’ve gotten more constructive comments from him than any other Catholic on this forum.

So far everyone has been very kind to me. I feel very blessed by being able to aske questions and get good answers here.

I just started a thread concerning Indulgences.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=2806901#post2806901

Hope to learn much from it.

 

[ThereseMarie]

One of the worst mis-understandings by Protestants is that Catholics worship saints and of course the ever tough question of Mary.

Let us take a look at this prayer. Is it a prayer of help from the Blessed Mother, or is the supplicant actually trusting in her for what they should be trusting in Jesus.

1. Come then, to my help, dearest Mother, for I recommend myself to thee. In thy hands I place my eternal salvation and to thee do I entrust my soul

**I can see your point, but my answer would have to be that the person praying this prayer is begging for Mary’s help in staying on the path to salvation. **

QUOTE=unacanta;2739285] The person praying places their eternal salvation into Mary’s hands, but also their soul. The bible clearly teaches salvation comes from no other than Jesus.

Yes, I see what you are saying. I would say that Jesus’ death redeemed us, but salvation, which is made possible by our redemption, is a process that we need help with. This is what the person is praying for: help. Saying “…to thee do I entrust my soul…” is like my saying to my husband or sister, “I trust you with my life. I am counting on you.”

*2. QUOTE=unacanta;2739285] “I fear nothing; not from my sins, because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them;”

Now, they don’t fear nothing, even their sins because Mary will obtain a pardon Again, Jesus is the only one who can pardon sin. *

I guess where it says "you will obtain pardon" (from Jesus), you understand “you will pardon (on your own)”. That is simply not there.

*QUOTE=unacanta;2739285] No thanks, I will stick to trusting in only Jesus. No one should question whom I worship. *

Yes, I trust in Jesus too. He is my Friend, my King, my God, my Love, and my All. People shouldn’t question whom I worship either, but they do. I have never given anyone a reason to, besides not being Protestant.**

*QUOTE=unacanta;2739285] There are reasons the Reformers had several “solas” in their doctrine./]

**Yes, and there are reasons why they have left a discombobulated, disjointed mass of 30,000+ different “churches” in their aftermath. ****

 

[Grace_Seeker]

unacanta;2739285:

One of the worst mis-understandings by Protestants is that Catholics worship saints and of course the ever tough question of Mary.

Let us take a look at this prayer. Is it a prayer of help from the Blessed Mother, or is the supplicant actually trusting in her for what they should be trusting in Jesus.

1. Come then, to my help, dearest Mother, for I recommend myself to thee. In thy hands I place my eternal salvation and to thee do I entrust my soul

**I can see your point, but my answer would have to be that the person praying this prayer is begging for Mary’s help in staying on the path to salvation. **

QUOTE=unacanta;2739285] The person praying places their eternal salvation into Mary’s hands, but also their soul. The bible clearly teaches salvation comes from no other than Jesus.

Yes, I see what you are saying. I would say that Jesus’ death redeemed us, but salvation, which is made possible by our redemption, is a process that we need help with. This is what the person is praying for: help. Saying “…to thee do I entrust my soul…” is like my saying to my husband or sister, “I trust you with my life. I am counting on you.”

*2. QUOTE=unacanta;2739285] “I fear nothing; not from my sins, because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them;”

Now, they don’t fear nothing, even their sins because Mary will obtain a pardon Again, Jesus is the only one who can pardon sin. *

I guess where it says "you will obtain pardon" (from Jesus), you understand “you will pardon (on your own)”. That is simply not there.

*QUOTE=unacanta;2739285] No thanks, I will stick to trusting in only Jesus. No one should question whom I worship. *

Yes, I trust in Jesus too. He is my Friend, my King, my God, my Love, and my All. People shouldn’t question whom I worship either, but they do. I have never given anyone a reason to, besides not being Protestant.**

*QUOTE=unacanta;2739285] There are reasons the Reformers had several “solas” in their doctrine./]

**Yes, and there are reasons why they have left a discombobulated, disjointed mass of 30,000+ different “churches” in their aftermath. ***
ThereseMarie,
I appreciate your answers. I find no fault with the way you understand the prayer. It was very helpful for you to express it how you see it and it was helpful that you could see how a protestant might misunderstand it.

If I may, I would request a favor, could you use the same approach when considering our disjointed mass of 30,000 different “churches” in protestantism. There really are reasons for much of that, and while it is sometimes disjointed, it may not be as discombulated as it seems from outside.

 

[unacanta]

unacanta;2739285:

One of the worst mis-understandings by Protestants is that Catholics worship saints and of course the ever tough question of Mary.

Let us take a look at this prayer. Is it a prayer of help from the Blessed Mother, or is the supplicant actually trusting in her for what they should be trusting in Jesus.

1. Come then, to my help, dearest Mother, for I recommend myself to thee. In thy hands I place my eternal salvation and to thee do I entrust my soul

**I can see your point, but my answer would have to be that the person praying this prayer is begging for Mary’s help in staying on the path to salvation. **

There is but one whom the Lord sent to guide and teach us:

John 14:26
"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

Mary is totally incapable of helping, she is no longer of this world.

QUOTE=unacanta;2739285] The person praying places their eternal salvation into Mary’s hands, but also their soul. The bible clearly teaches salvation comes from no other than Jesus.

Yes, I see what you are saying. I would say that Jesus’ death redeemed us, but salvation, which is made possible by our redemption, is a process that we need help with. This is what the person is praying for: help. Saying “…to thee do I entrust my soul…” is like my saying to my husband or sister, “I trust you with my life. I am counting on you.”

Psalm 20:7
Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God.

I will trust only in Jesus, one who has proven Himself. I would never trust my Wife, Sister or anything of flesh with my spirit other than the Holy Spirit. Sorry, none will do but Jesus.

*2. QUOTE=unacanta;2739285] “I fear nothing; not from my sins, because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them;”

Now, they don’t fear nothing, even their sins because Mary will obtain a pardon Again, Jesus is the only one who can pardon sin. *

I guess where it says "you will obtain pardon" (from Jesus), you understand “you will pardon (on your own)”. That is simply not there.

Actually if you look at the prayer (forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=2739285&postcount=1) you will find the supplicant saying:

[SIGN]For, if thou protect me, dear Mother, I fear nothing; not from my sins, because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them[/SIGN]

The “them” is refering to their sins. So, they are again placing the responsibility for gaining a pardon for the sins through Mary not Jesus. I will of course concede, Mary would have to request of the Lord the pardon. I just don’t understand why a person would not go direct to Christ ask for forgiveness. Why try to use Mary, a brother, sister, or anywone else for that matter when Christ is the only way.

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

QUOTE=unacanta;2739285] No thanks, I will stick to trusting in only Jesus. No one should question whom I worship.
**

Yes, I trust in Jesus too. He is my Friend, my King, my God, my Love, and my All. People shouldn’t question whom I worship either, but they do. I have never given anyone a reason to, besides not being Protestant.

Praise the Lord. We must always be careful on the words we use and how we do so. Nothing dishoners the Lord than to utter non-truths in order to prove a point or to cloud an issue.
ThereseMarie;2808528:

QUOTE=unacanta;2739285] There are reasons the Reformers had several “solas” in their doctrine./]

**Yes, and there are reasons why they have left a discombobulated, disjointed mass of 30,000+ different “churches” in their aftermath. **

Good point. All I can say is when we the “discombobulated, disjointed mass of 30,000” pray, we actully pray to the source of power and not trust in any other name than Jesus.

Catholic Prayer Warrior;
[SIGN]Obtain for me, then, the pardon of my sins, love for Jesus, final perseverance, and the grace always to have recourse to thee, O Mother of Perpetual Help [/SIGN]

Discombobulated, disjointed mass of 30,000 Prayer Warriors:
[SIGN]Our sins are pardon by you Jesus and your grace is always suffiecent. [/SIGN]

Blessings I am sure you are to all whom you speak.

In the name of the mighty Son,
Len

 

[ThereseMarie]

We shall agree to disagree.

God bless you,

 

[ThereseMarie]

If I may, I would request a favor, could you use the same approach when considering our disjointed mass of 30,000 different “churches” in protestantism. There really are reasons for much of that, and while it is sometimes disjointed, it may not be as discombulated as it seems from outside.*

**
Yes of course. Sorry if I offended

God bless,***