Why are so many Catholics attending non-denominational services?

[Suslar]

I didn’t take Kelfa’s comment as a pat on the back thing but a reality.
In another thread, someone was saying they only believe what they feel . . . nothing about logic, reason, or the discipline to at least try.

 

[Kelfa28]

If we could reach, we could all pat ourselves on the back for being so intelligent and disciplined, couldn’t we? And oh…isn’t it sad about all those lazy, ignorant people that are living out there?

Is this really who we are?

You cannot just show up to Mass and get anything out of it if you aren’t putting in extra effort outside of that morning hour every Sunday.

That is a fact.

You need to go the extra mile and read or take classes to learn about the faith.

You need to go to adoration, go to confession, pray, read the bible, read Church history, read about the saints. You need to grow in your faith.

I do feel sad for anyone who shows up to Mass every Sunday, blindly receives Communion and then goes home and forgets about it until it’s 9am the following week. I pray for them. I don’t feel contempt or would judge them for their lack of faith or lack of intellectualism. But we are all expected to read our bibles. We are all expected to learn more about our faith…especially the lives of the Saints and Church history.

You need to breathe your faith and live it.
My MIL’s Church is only open for bible study on Wed and Service on Sunday. They have a school but that is separate.
You can’t just walk in and feel the presence of Jesus when you need it most.

At my Church, as with all Catholic Churches, there is daily Mass. My Church also does Latin Mass and almost perpetual Adoration. It will be perpetual this fall.

 

[Kelfa28]

I didn’t take Kelfa’s comment as a pat on the back thing but a reality.
In another thread, someone was saying they only believe what they feel . . . nothing about logic, reason, or the discipline to at least try.

Yes…this is the reality.
It’s the exact reason why we are losing so many people to the ND churches.

It has little to do with just the music and community.

It has everything to do with a lack of understanding with our Faith…namely the Eucharist.

If they took the time to try and understand it and learn more about it…they would realize it is the Truth and wouldn’t care about wanting better music or a motivational/inspirational sermon.

 

[robwar]

I’ve noticed that our parish attendance has been extremely spotty. I’ve ran into quite a few church members and they’ve all told me that they’ve decided to attend non-denomination services. I’ve never been to one, so what’s the big fuss about it?

I read all the posts and want to ask you a couple questions first. Is there something going on at your parish, new priest, controversy etc. In other words, is there something going on that from what your post said that you didn’t notice just one but more than one leaving? I am not trying to justify leaving at all because I was a Methodist, left that and went to two different ND type churches thinking they were it only to find my way into the Catholic Church. People leave and change churches I think (in observation and own experience) for emotional type reasons. They became unhappy, hurt, some how dissatisfied and starting to look at other places. Since this seems like more than one parishioner, I would imagine that one person went to this church, liked it and then informed one or two unhappy buddies and then the group that left grows. It’s sad, but in observation, the Catholic Church usually does nothing about parishioners that leave, no calls no outreach back. I know the last parish we left to attend another, when I called to switch registration, the secretary instead of saying I’m sorry to see you go, seemed to giggle about it. Of course we were just switching Catholic Churches but there seems too often next to nothing of any outreach to those that leave. Yes we can all get on the band wagon and tell each other that the Catholic Church is the one true Church and contains fullness of truth but if there has been a disconnect, poor understanding and hurt or unhappiness, the bottom line truth is lost and people leave for something else that seems more engaging. I wonder if you have spoken to your priest about your observations with the parish to see if he has noticed.

 

[Seeker1961]

It is also a fact that there is never just one side to any issue. Yet, what I continue to read here is that everything the Catholic Church does is just perfect and everyone who doesn’t see that is ignorant and lazy or just hates the Church. I don’t accept the premise of we’re all right and they’re all wrong. It’s too simplistic, and frankly it’s the easy way out, it lets us all off the hook so we don’t have to try harder, or even care about the people who either walk away, or never come near us in the first place.

 

[EasterJoy]

I didn’t take Kelfa’s comment as a pat on the back thing but a reality.
In another thread, someone was saying they only believe what they feel . . . nothing about logic, reason, or the discipline to at least try.

While there is the aspect that people are not given the level of catechesis they deserve–that is, the Mass is explained to them in terms that simply do not do justice to the truth–there is also the issue that a parish that regularly celebrates Mass in a way that is banal, vulgar, or careless or is celebrated by a parish that lacks exterior evidence of love of neighbor or includes preaching that says a lot of squishy nothings about nothing, those real problems will obscure the truth of what the Mass is. If Mass is the only expression of faith that there is, for instance, then where do expressions of faith fit that do not fit in the Mass? If there is no evidence of Christianity in the parish except poor liturgies, is lack of discipline and logic in those who feel dissatisfaction the only problem? It is not realistic to worship in an inferior way and then tell people who find something is amiss, “you’re just not disciplined enough” or “use your logic, and it will be very nourishing, really.” No, sometimes using your logic makes you realize that things are not adding up, and you want to run screaming from the church!

On the flip side, there are some that want to address unsatisfactory worship by introducing those things that are banal or vulgar or profane at Mass, too, who want some “spice” without reference to whether it affects reverence, but here is the thing: when it comes to being a show, the Mass cannot “compete” with those things that are conceived and performed as a show. If that is what people mean by “getting fed”, then those churches that choose to do that will “win”. That is not by any means all Protestant churches, but it does describe some. Some do think of their Sunday offerings not in terms of planning worship, but in terms of attracting an audience. I’d like to think they mean well and do not know the damage that this does, or that attracting an audience that leaves with an emotional high is not the same as leading in worship. This is just as true when profane self-centered showmanship invades the Mass, and actually worse, even when it keeps some bodies in the pews.

I mean to say that if we say, based on the logic of what the Mass is, that the Mass deserves the best, and yet in execution the music and other aspects of the Mass are simply awful, then it isn’t going to convince anyone. Mass isn’t entertainment, but it isn’t supposed to be a penance for the senses, either. Mass is supposed to be done in an elevating manner, in an excellent manner, in a manner that engages because of the quality of the ritual. When the Masses that are being offered are something else again, well, those who feel a vacuum where the excellence ought to be cannot be accused of being entirely off the mark.

In short, the people who leave because they want to be entertained and they want to be put at the center of attention like little toddler party guests who insist that they, too, ought to get presents whether or not they are the ones having a birthday are not going to stay because they understand things better. Making Mass into entertainment might help keep them, but then they’ll just starve in place. On the flip side, though, a bad Mass combines the valid and the scandalously off-putting just as surely as a bad priest does. The result of what happens to Catholics who are exposed to that kind of scandal are understandable, and the way to avoid that is not to expect Catholics to become so logical that they’re impossible to scandalize. That isn’t going to happen, and it shouldn’t.

 

[CatholicZ09]

Kelfa states a good point. We cannot just go to Mass on Sundays and think that we are good Christians by going to church once a week. There’s so much more than that. You have to grow in your faith, and that is what we are called to do. Read some writings from the Church Fathers. They all provide plentiful wisdom about the faith. Receive the sacraments often - they are God’s gift to us on earth. Go to adoration - bring your questions to Our Lord.

I’m not saying that everything the CC does is right and everyone else is wrong. There are many different ways you can reach God, but you only find the fullness of that faith in the Catholic Church. There are so many books, articles, TV shows, etc. that publishers work very hard in portraying the message of the Church, and we need to take advantage of them.

I’m not trying to say that non-Catholics are ignorant or lazy. A lot of them are very faithful to God and know their stuff, but many simply do not understand the Church, and the Church is not trying to hide the truth from them. The truth is open to anyone, you just have to be willing to accept it.

 

[Soren_Itenu]

Mark121359:

There is just no way on this earth I could ever leave her. Add to that, I’d miss my Mama Mary way toooooo much!

You just won the Internet for the day.

And you almost made me cry.

 

[Soren_Itenu]

I was raised Protestant. Low-church Protestant until I was 30. And then I found my Home in the Church, the Church of real substance, the Church of the Sacrifice of the Mass. I say from first-hand experience that the appeal of these ND rock-concert style church services is based in emotivism. People not only want to feel good about themselves and other people, they also attach meaning to their feelings. Sure, feelings have meaning, but not above Truth. Truth and Goodness remain unchanged no matter how we feel about them. God loves you, for example, even when you don’t feel His love. But many of the ND places make you feel God’s love. It’s like drugs. If something isn’t happening – if you’re not tripping out of your mind on a religious experience – then your religion isn’t valid. That’s the general thinking, from what I’ve observed for thirty years.

 

[JackieMom]

I was raised Protestant. Low-church Protestant until I was 30. And then I found my Home in the Church, the Church of real substance, the Church of the Sacrifice of the Mass. I say from first-hand experience that the appeal of these ND rock-concert style church services is based in emotivism. People not only want to feel good about themselves and other people, they also attach meaning to their feelings. Sure, feelings have meaning, but not above Truth. Truth and Goodness remain unchanged no matter how we feel about them. God loves you, for example, even when you don’t feel His love. But many of the ND places make you feel God’s love. It’s like drugs. If something isn’t happening – if you’re not tripping out of your mind on a religious experience – then your religion isn’t valid. That’s the general thinking, from what I’ve observed for thirty years.

Way too much emphasis placed on the experience of the services. It’s weird because sometimes I go to Mass and… The cantor is not exactly in her prime, the song selection is blah (maybe they sing “On Eagles’ Wings” which I loathe), a man next to me keeps grunting and scratching himself for some reason, the altar servers are new and catawampus, the homily is dull or the visiting priest has such a heavy accent I can’t understand a thing. All that could happen and STILL I leave knowing I experienced Jesus in that room - that whatever else was boring or poorly executed or uninspiring - the real, actual Jesus was THERE and I got to see Him, and in fact I got the opportunity to partake of Him. And it’s a miracle every time. How could you abandon that for a cool band and fun songs with a laser show and a charismatic preacher who makes you feel fired up?

 

[Soren_Itenu]

Yep. Exactly.

 

[EasterJoy]

…But many of the ND places make you feel God’s love. It’s like drugs. If something isn’t happening – if you’re not tripping out of your mind on a religious experience – then your religion isn’t valid. That’s the general thinking, from what I’ve observed for thirty years.

I’m afraid what you are saying is true. There is also a rejection of crucifixes…none of the crosses have a corpus. All resurrection, no Passion. It has to be very awful for people at a certain point, because of course while consolations can be quite real, the dry periods are going to come. If you’re not prepared, how would your faith survive that? This passage from The Screwtape Letters gives an idea of what C.S. Lewis surmised would happen to someone with a faith based on the “high” (boldface mine, obviously):

*MY DEAR WORMWOOD,
I hope my last letter has convinced you that the trough of dullness or ”dryness” through
which your patient is going at present will not, of itself, give you his soul, but needs to be
properly exploited. What forms the exploitation should take I will now consider…

…But there is an even better way of exploiting the Trough; I mean through the patient’s
own thoughts about it. As always, the first step is to keep knowledge out of his mind. Do
not let him suspect the law of undulation. Let him assume that the first ardors of his
conversion might have been expected to last, and ought to have lasted, forever, and that his
present dryness is an equally permanent condition. Having once got this misconception well
fixed in his head, you may then proceed in various ways. It all depends on whether your man
is of the desponding type who can be tempted to despair, or of the wishful-thinking type who
can be assured that all is well. The former type is getting rare among the humans. If your
patient should happen to belong to it, everything is easy. You have only got to keep him out
of the way of experienced Christians (an easy task now-a-days), to direct his attention to
the appropriate passages in scripture, and then to set him to work on the desperate design
of recovering his old feelings by sheer will-power, and the game is ours. If he is of the more
hopeful type, your job is to make him acquiesce in the present low temperature of his spirit
and gradually become content with it, persuading himself that it is not so low after all. In
a week or two you will be making him doubt whether the first days of his Christianity were
not, perhaps, a little excessive. Talk to him about ”moderation in all things”. If you can
once get him to the point of thinking that ”religion is all very well up to a point”, you can
feel quite happy about his soul. A moderated religion is as good for us as no religion at all, and
more amusing.

Another possibility is that of direct attack on his faith. When you have caused him to
assume that the trough is permanent, can you not persuade him that ”his religious phase”
is just going to die away like all his previous phases? **Of course there is no conceivable way
of getting by reason from the proposition ”I am losing interest in this” to the proposition
”This is false”. But, as I said before, it is jargon, not reason, you must rely on. **The mere
word phase will very likely do the trick. I assume that the creature has been through several
of them before- they all have- and that he always feels superior and patronising to the ones
he has emerged from, not because he has really criticised them but simply because they are
in the past. (You keep him well fed on hazy ideas of Progress and Development and the
Historical Point of View, I trust, and give him lots of modern Biographies to read? The
people in them are always emerging from Phases, aren’t they?)
You see the idea? Keep his mind off the plain antithesis between True and False. Nice
shadowy expressions- ”It was a phase”- ”I’ve been through all that”- and don’t forget the
blessed word ”Adolescent”,

Your Affectionate Uncle,
Screwtape*

 

[Soren_Itenu]

I agree, EasterJoy. I was just saying what I have observed in Protestants for years. I’m not one of them.

 

[WildCatholic]

Because its “easy”. Like a previous poster mentioned, there are “no rules” meaning one never has to be held accountable for their actions to a certain extent. Their situation is always acceptable, no one points out that they may be living immorally. Their consciences are always free.

No offense, but in my area, i’ve never seen a church like this. I haven’t been to many non denominational groups, but most I’ve been to are more than love jesus. Yes that is all you have to do, but most i’ve been to emphasize that if you love Jesus, you won’t want to sin.

I think this appeals to some people. Sometimes people feel as if their sins are too great and feel left out of catholicism and so they leave.

Most of the time though it is over trivial reasons that don’t have much to do with faith like better music (which isn’t really that great:shrug or that people are welcoming (of course they are, they want to convert you! anybody who’s had experience with Cru on a college campus will know that) or that the pastor is nicer or more knowledgeable or they have daycare or something.

 

[EasterJoy]

No offense, but in my area, i’ve never seen a church like this. I haven’t been to many non denominational groups, but most I’ve been to are more than love jesus. Yes that is all you have to do, but most i’ve been to emphasize that if you love Jesus, you won’t want to sin.

I think this appeals to some people. Sometimes people feel as if their sins are too great and feel left out of catholicism and so they leave.

Most of the time though it is over trivial reasons that don’t have much to do with faith like better music (which isn’t really that great:shrug or that people are welcoming (of course they are, they want to convert you! anybody who’s had experience with Cru on a college campus will know that) or that the pastor is nicer or more knowledgeable or they have daycare or something.

Yes. There are literally thousands of churches outside the mainstream denominations, and they vary as much as the people who start them. Some have plush sanctuaries that look like modern movie theatres, others have traditional-looking churches, some that even used to belong to a mainstream denomination a generation ago, others meet in strip mall storefronts or very small and simple structures, and there is everything in-between. There is no way to make a blanket statement that fits all of them except that, taken as a group, they offer a lot of variety.

They don’t offer the Mass, that is the common thread. Whatever they offer, they don’t offer the Mass. So whatever draws people to those places, what makes Catholics willing to leave is that there is a decision somewhere that what the Catholic Church offers is not unique or not essential or else is fatally flawed.

 

[Seeker1961]

Kelfa states a good point. We cannot just go to Mass on Sundays and think that we are good Christians by going to church once a week. There’s so much more than that. You have to grow in your faith, and that is what we are called to do. Read some writings from the Church Fathers. They all provide plentiful wisdom about the faith. Receive the sacraments often - they are God’s gift to us on earth. Go to adoration - bring your questions to Our Lord.

I’m not saying that everything the CC does is right and everyone else is wrong. There are many different ways you can reach God, but you only find the fullness of that faith in the Catholic Church. There are so many books, articles, TV shows, etc. that publishers work very hard in portraying the message of the Church, and we need to take advantage of them.

I’m not trying to say that non-Catholics are ignorant or lazy. A lot of them are very faithful to God and know their stuff, but many simply do not understand the Church, and the Church is not trying to hide the truth from them. The truth is open to anyone, you just have to be willing to accept it.

That is exactly what you’re saying-and what pretty much everyone is saying on this thread.

“They don’t understand”, “they want to be entertained”, “they can do whatever they want”, “they want to feel good about themselves”, “they are like toddlers”…

 

[Kelfa28]

That is exactly what you’re saying-and what pretty much everyone is saying on this thread.

“They don’t understand”, “they want to be entertained”, “they can do whatever they want”, “they want to feel good about themselves”, “they are like toddlers”…

From my experience, some don’t understand.

One thing I’ve found that is very disturbing to me is the total acceptance of divorce and remarriage. My husband grew up in Protestant Churches and noticed how many pastors were not only divorced but remarried.
That is a high level of scandal that absolutely baffles me. It’s in the bible that you are committing a sin of the sixth commandment by re-marrying after you get a divorce.

I was under the impression, based on what was told to me, that my MIL’s ND Church was on the conservative side. I would have never questioned my MIL’s devotion and understanding of Jesus and his teachings.

Especially when she said that they believe everything that the Catholics believe…with the exception of the Eucharist.

She is twice divorced but converted back to her old faith and seemed to be truly devote.
Then my husband and I had a conversation with her about my husband’s dad dating a woman who wanted to be called Grandmother to my daughter.
Long story short…she brought up the possibility of her getting married again and would this new man be considered a Grandfather?

I was floored and we, gently, reminded her that was sinful in her situation. She didn’t seem to agree with us…even after we pointed out where in the bible that was wrong.

My point is there doesn’t seem to be much continuity with these Churches.

Granted…it’s true that many, many Catholics do not believe or accept Church teaching. But Church teaching never changes. It will always be the same and one can just quickly look up exactly what the Church teaches to settle any disagreement. It’s up to the Catholic to learn and to follow these teachings. It’s up to the Bishops and Priests to be sure the correct information is getting out there through classes and sermons…etc.

This form of authority does not exist within the ND churches. The Bible is totally open to interpretation…and that is where people get lost.

I find it somewhat strange that people who are divorced and remarried can claim their sins are forgiven…yet they are still actively living in sin by staying married. They are also causing great scandal but saying that this is perfectly okay.

I was hanging out with my MIL’s Church friends for lunch one day and actually realized that every person in that room…a room with 4 couples…had been divorced and remarried (except for me). My MIL was the only one that wasn’t currently married.
Her pastor is divorced and remarried. Both Churches she attend before this one…same things…the pastors were all divorced and remarried.

 

[Diana_Catherine]

I’m not trying to say that non-Catholics are ignorant or lazy. A lot of them are very faithful to God and know their stuff, but many simply do not understand the Church, and the Church is not trying to hide the truth from them. The truth is open to anyone, you just have to be willing to accept it.

True.

That is exactly what you’re saying-and what pretty much everyone is saying on this thread.

“They don’t understand”, “they want to be entertained”, “they can do whatever they want”, “they want to feel good about themselves”, “they are like toddlers”…

I believe part of the issue with these statements is: that it is true that they don’t understand the Church because if they knew that the Catholic church is where the full presence of Our Lord was, they wouldn’t leave. Two, having been there and knowing that the entertainment is a huge part that draws people today means that there is truth to that. That is why having been a part of the ND churches I can tell you that the entertainment gets crazier and crazier, just to keep people coming in. Some of the entertainment can truly get offensive to true Christianity. Our entire culture alone is becoming more and more entertainment based. People find it hard to be quiet and feel the need to be constantly entertained. Extreme everything.

Also, protestant belief is once saved, always saved and it is a truth that because of that belief they do frequently believe that can do what ever they want and still go to heaven. I sat through many sermons on that belief alone. “You’re saved. Put your faith on a shelf and pull it out when you want.” or “You don’t have to pray, read the Bible or anything once you accept Jesus as your personal savior.”

Thing is many times the grass is greener on the other side and we look at those Christians over there and think that they are doing a wonderful job and we are not or visa versa when in fact there are problems and issues on both sides. True there are problems in the Catholic faith but there are problems in the ND churches also. Many of the ND churches are not even truly ND, if you research their history you find that they are usually a group that broke from a particular protestant denomination. For example, two of the “ND” churches in are area are from Mennonite or Presbyterian denominations but you have to dig to find out where their beliefs are rooted.

God bless you in your seeking.

 

[KostyaJMJ]

The difference is non-denom churches offer free pizza and babysitting. Many catholics also find the emotional support and joy in worship that is often lacking from many parishes.

I can relate in some ways. I go to an Orthodox Church on occasion and the people are actually happy to be there and everybody is quite involved in the worship. At mass on the other hand everybody looks like they just bit into a sour persimmon.

 

[Diana_Catherine]

The difference is non-denom churches offer free pizza and babysitting. Many catholics also find the emotional support and joy in worship that is often lacking from many parishes.

I can relate in some ways. I go to an Orthodox Church on occasion and the people are actually happy to be there and everybody is quite involved in the worship. At mass on the other hand everybody looks like they just bit into a sour persimmon.

I think that is because mass is not a time to be entertained but a time for prayer and contemplation. Most parishes have activities outside of mass that can be emotionally supportive.

Babysitting isn’t always great either because you should have your children with you learning how to worship God on Sundays, instead of unfortunately what my son experienced a couple of times during “children’s church,” watching the Apple Dumpling gang and watching magic shows. Another reason he asked me if he could attend church and not children’s church.