Mark121359
Well-known member
Excellent! Me believes you’re onto something here. I couldn’t agree more with you!
Peace, Mark
Why are so many Catholics attending non-denominational services?
- Status
Peace, Mark
C
chevalier
Guest
Might as well be an expression of longing for a universal undivided Church. Except that Church subsists in the Catholic Church.
L
logcabinrandy
Guest
A couple of observations from a non-Catholic here as to why members may be leaving. Last time my wife and I went to Mass with my mother-in-law the priest was from S. America. You couldn’t understand a word he said, there was no music at all during the service. We were the youngest couple in the church at 54 years old. There was no fellowship after church (coffee and donuts or visiting). Everyone just filed out of church and went home. It seemed to be very sterile no life to the congregation
My sister-in-law works for another parish and she recently told me they have been having problems with their priest falling asleep during Mass and parsihioners are upset at this. She covers for this behavior by saying he works long hours. This would never fly at the church we go to
I am not sure if you can solve these issue’s but when we went the the Methodist Church and encountered some of these sames problems, we moved on to a church that better fit our spritual and family needs, I think this is why younger Catholic families are moving on
God Bless
My sister-in-law works for another parish and she recently told me they have been having problems with their priest falling asleep during Mass and parsihioners are upset at this. She covers for this behavior by saying he works long hours. This would never fly at the church we go to
I am not sure if you can solve these issue’s but when we went the the Methodist Church and encountered some of these sames problems, we moved on to a church that better fit our spritual and family needs, I think this is why younger Catholic families are moving on
God Bless
E
EasterJoy
Guest
I think you are right, but I say that without agreeing with your point entirely. At its worst, is that not the kind of thinking that is going to keep a person from ever really setting down roots or bearing fruit at a single church of any stripe? After all, what spiritual tradition was ever built on “as soon as I’m bored, I’m out of here” or “here I am, what’s in it for me?” No, when the Church is doing it right, it has to elicit discipleship for those who are really seeking discipleship, even if that does not meet with everyone’s approval.
“Hear then the parable of the sower. The seed sown on the path is the one who hears the word of the kingdom without understanding it, and the evil one comes and steals away what was sown in his heart. The seed sown on rocky ground is the one who hears the word and receives it at once with joy. But he has no root and lasts only for a time. When some tribulation or persecution comes because of the word, he immediately falls away. The seed sown among thorns is the one who hears the word, but then worldly anxiety and the lure of riches choke the word and it bears no fruit. But the seed sown on rich soil is the one who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and yields a hundred or sixty or thirtyfold.” Matt. 13:18-23
Where there are problems in a parish that make the soil hard or lacking in nourishment, so that it is made unduly difficult for the faithful to hear the word and understand it and to bear fruit, then that is the problem that needs to be addressed. Nothing the parish does should be put ahead of that. But if people are leaving because they want to sprout quickly because they have found a place where no one is asking them to form roots, no one is asking them to understand deeply, no one is asking them to form a correct conscience and do the hard work of mastering their own actions, then they need to be turned from wanting the wrong thing, not given that wrong thing in order to keep them in the pews.
“Hear then the parable of the sower. The seed sown on the path is the one who hears the word of the kingdom without understanding it, and the evil one comes and steals away what was sown in his heart. The seed sown on rocky ground is the one who hears the word and receives it at once with joy. But he has no root and lasts only for a time. When some tribulation or persecution comes because of the word, he immediately falls away. The seed sown among thorns is the one who hears the word, but then worldly anxiety and the lure of riches choke the word and it bears no fruit. But the seed sown on rich soil is the one who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and yields a hundred or sixty or thirtyfold.” Matt. 13:18-23
Where there are problems in a parish that make the soil hard or lacking in nourishment, so that it is made unduly difficult for the faithful to hear the word and understand it and to bear fruit, then that is the problem that needs to be addressed. Nothing the parish does should be put ahead of that. But if people are leaving because they want to sprout quickly because they have found a place where no one is asking them to form roots, no one is asking them to understand deeply, no one is asking them to form a correct conscience and do the hard work of mastering their own actions, then they need to be turned from wanting the wrong thing, not given that wrong thing in order to keep them in the pews.
E
EasterJoy
Guest
Another problem is that Christians are not taught that periods of spiritual difficulty are to be expected as part of the human condition and that the ideal is to use dry periods to put ardor for doing God’s will on a foundation of the individual will instead of on a purely emotional footing. Some also falsely believe that the dedication of the will or intellect alone are dead, while the consolations felt in the emotions constitute a soul’s “real” or “living” connection to the Lord. This is not what the saints teach in their descriptions of their own lives!! Rather, there are both times of emotional consolation and periods of emotional dryness, and spiritual profits to be had from each. C.S. Lewis treated the topic well in The Screwtape Letters; I put in an excerpt below (boldface and underline mine, obviously.) The thing to remember is that not only individuals but entire parishes can fall into the traps below.
*"My dear Wormwood,
I hope my last letter has convinced you that the trough of dullness or ”dryness” through which your patient is going at present will not, of itself, give you his soul, but needs to be properly exploited. What forms the exploitation should take I will now consider…
"…there is an even better way of exploiting the Trough; I mean through the patient’s own thoughts about it. As always, the first step is to keep knowledge out of his mind. Do not let him suspect the law of undulation. Let him assume that the first ardours of his conversion might have been expected to last, and ought to have lasted, forever, and that his present dryness is an equally permanent condition. Having once got this misconception well fixed in his head, you may then proceed in various ways. It all depends on whether your man is of the desponding type who can be tempted to despair, or of the wishful-thinking type who can be assured that all is well. The former type is getting rare among the humans. If your patient should happen to belong to it, everything is easy.** You have only got to keep him out of the way of experienced Christians **(an easy task now-a-days), to direct his attention to the appropriate passages in scripture, and then to set him to work on the desperate design of recovering his old feelings by sheer will-power, and the game is ours. If he is of the more hopeful type, your job is to make him acquiesce in the present low temperature of his spirit and gradually become content with it, persuading himself that it is not so low after all. In a week or two you will be making him doubt whether the first days of his Christianity were not, perhaps, a little excessive. Talk to him about ”moderation in all things”. If you can once get him to the point of thinking that ”religion is all very well up to a point”, you can feel quite happy about his soul. A moderated religion is as good for us as no religion at all and more amusing.
"Another possibility is that of direct attack on his faith. When you have caused him to assume that the trough is permanent, can you not persuade him that ”his religious phase” is just going to die away like all his previous phases? Of course there is no conceivable way of getting by reason from the proposition ”I am losing interest in this” to the proposition ”This is false”. But, as I said before, it is jargon, not reason, you must rely on. The mere word phase will very likely do the trick. I assume that the creature has been through several of them before- they all have- and that he always feels superior and patronising to the ones he has emerged from, not because he has really criticised them but simply because they are in the past. (You keep him well fed on hazy ideas of Progress and Development and the Historical Point of View, I trust, and give him lots of modern Biographies to read? The people in them are always emerging from Phases, aren’t they?)
You see the idea? Keep his mind off the plain antithesis between True and False. Nice shadowy expressions- ”It was a phase”- ”I’ve been through all that”- and don’t forget the blessed word ”Adolescent”
Your affectionate uncle, Screwtape"*
Think about that passage and ask…what could be a worse combination than a parish that has been lured to act as if “religion is all very well up to a point” and an individual parishioner who is set to work “on the desperate design of recovering his old feelings by sheer will-power”. Disaster is going to follow!!
*"My dear Wormwood,
I hope my last letter has convinced you that the trough of dullness or ”dryness” through which your patient is going at present will not, of itself, give you his soul, but needs to be properly exploited. What forms the exploitation should take I will now consider…
"…there is an even better way of exploiting the Trough; I mean through the patient’s own thoughts about it. As always, the first step is to keep knowledge out of his mind. Do not let him suspect the law of undulation. Let him assume that the first ardours of his conversion might have been expected to last, and ought to have lasted, forever, and that his present dryness is an equally permanent condition. Having once got this misconception well fixed in his head, you may then proceed in various ways. It all depends on whether your man is of the desponding type who can be tempted to despair, or of the wishful-thinking type who can be assured that all is well. The former type is getting rare among the humans. If your patient should happen to belong to it, everything is easy.** You have only got to keep him out of the way of experienced Christians **(an easy task now-a-days), to direct his attention to the appropriate passages in scripture, and then to set him to work on the desperate design of recovering his old feelings by sheer will-power, and the game is ours. If he is of the more hopeful type, your job is to make him acquiesce in the present low temperature of his spirit and gradually become content with it, persuading himself that it is not so low after all. In a week or two you will be making him doubt whether the first days of his Christianity were not, perhaps, a little excessive. Talk to him about ”moderation in all things”. If you can once get him to the point of thinking that ”religion is all very well up to a point”, you can feel quite happy about his soul. A moderated religion is as good for us as no religion at all and more amusing.
"Another possibility is that of direct attack on his faith. When you have caused him to assume that the trough is permanent, can you not persuade him that ”his religious phase” is just going to die away like all his previous phases? Of course there is no conceivable way of getting by reason from the proposition ”I am losing interest in this” to the proposition ”This is false”. But, as I said before, it is jargon, not reason, you must rely on. The mere word phase will very likely do the trick. I assume that the creature has been through several of them before- they all have- and that he always feels superior and patronising to the ones he has emerged from, not because he has really criticised them but simply because they are in the past. (You keep him well fed on hazy ideas of Progress and Development and the Historical Point of View, I trust, and give him lots of modern Biographies to read? The people in them are always emerging from Phases, aren’t they?)
You see the idea? Keep his mind off the plain antithesis between True and False. Nice shadowy expressions- ”It was a phase”- ”I’ve been through all that”- and don’t forget the blessed word ”Adolescent”
Your affectionate uncle, Screwtape"*
Think about that passage and ask…what could be a worse combination than a parish that has been lured to act as if “religion is all very well up to a point” and an individual parishioner who is set to work “on the desperate design of recovering his old feelings by sheer will-power”. Disaster is going to follow!!
A
Annie39
Guest
I believe that it is for friendship for many. It is very difficult to even meet a fellow Catholic in todays parishes. Non-denominational are more oriented towards keeping the sheep by hugging them to death
. Catholics generally speaking are not so friendly to strangers sitting next to them in the pews. I have read posts on this forum as well as other Catholic forums where people say they are lonely and would like to make Catholic friends because their alternatives are the people “of the world” so to speak and they don’t fit in there either. I have never met an ex-Catholic who attends non-denom for doctrine.Annie
H
hurting
Guest
Because there are no rules, namely with respect to divorce and remarriage. I suspect that a great many lapsed Catholics attending ND churches are divorced and/or already remarried or considering same.
Our pastor shared with us in a pastoral council meeting awhile back that ND churches are the largest destination of lapsed Catholics.
J
Joko2599
Guest
I used to attend an ND Church a long time ago. I left the Catholic Church because I read Protestant stuff about the Pope and Mary. I quickly realized my grave mistake and went back to the Catholic Church, and I am here to stay.
The ND Church was like attending a concert with Christan rock, alongside a 1 hour talk about morals. I liked it, but Catholicism is the one, true faith, so I ceased attending.
I’m 13. The Catholic Church is losing its young members FAST. Over issues such as abortion and gay marriage. And sometimes, they read anti-Catholic literature, without looking at the Church’s rebuttal of that argument.
Now my parents rarely attend mass, and I never have the chance to go (Unless it’s a major Catholic holiday, like Easter). When I am 18, I plan on attending every Sunday, and going to RCIA to recieve 1st Communion and Confirmation.
One reason young people like ND church’s is the atmosphere. Love Christ, and you can do anything you want. I know I liked that. But we need to teach our youth that you have to follow the rules.
The ND Church was like attending a concert with Christan rock, alongside a 1 hour talk about morals. I liked it, but Catholicism is the one, true faith, so I ceased attending.
I’m 13. The Catholic Church is losing its young members FAST. Over issues such as abortion and gay marriage. And sometimes, they read anti-Catholic literature, without looking at the Church’s rebuttal of that argument.
Now my parents rarely attend mass, and I never have the chance to go (Unless it’s a major Catholic holiday, like Easter). When I am 18, I plan on attending every Sunday, and going to RCIA to recieve 1st Communion and Confirmation.
One reason young people like ND church’s is the atmosphere. Love Christ, and you can do anything you want. I know I liked that. But we need to teach our youth that you have to follow the rules.
L
Luvz2travel
Guest
Because of a lack of community in the church. I’ve thought about leaving from time to time myself. If you’re singles in the church you’re pretty much on your own.
C
Costner
Guest
Some Catholics attend Protestant churches because Protestant churches are basketball courts where you can play ball and praise Jesus at the same time!
T
Tampa_Dave
Guest
While I see many devout Catholics at Latin Mass, it seems like everyone disperses after Mass without much interaction. Socializing is not our strong point. Sure, we randomly attend various activities sponsored by the Knights of Columbus and other Catholic groups, but there is little interaction among the laity in general. At least that is my perspective.
S
ShanaA1984
Guest
Boy am I familiar with this. Throw in the fact that you are a single mother to a child with no father present and you are pretty much a social pariah. At least that’s how it is in my parish.
And I too have considered leaving even though I am a new catholic but the only place I can feel comfortable is within the Catholic Church. I really cannot stand the charismatic services that other protestant churches put on. Non-denom or not. I would just rather not attend church at all if that was my choice.
J
Joko2599
Guest
I agree. We need to interact with each other more at Mass.
G
gh4
Guest
Fellowship. Friends, people who care about other people. Bible studies, activities for children. Activities for adults.
I live in a very small town. We do have an abundance of churches.
Catholic. Often less than 20 people at vigil mass, and rarely more than 35-40 at Sunday mass. No bible study. No groups that meet and do things of any kind. CCD is on Sundays after mass. No further activities after Sunday for anyone. Daily mass on Tues. through Friday.
Coffee, conversation and donuts once a month after the Sunday mass (nothing for the Vigil mass.) And this gathering will probably come to an end because the gal who made it happen just passed away recently.
3 Non-denominations churches: Church on Sundays mornings, Sunday evenings and Wed. evenings. Each church has at least 2 bibles studies during the week. Sunday school for adults and for children every Sunday before Services. Various pot lucks and carry ins during the year usually once a month. Most of these churches are packed every Sunday. They have various groups that meet throughout the weeks and month for men, women and children.
One of these churches has a food bank that gives out food monthly and a clothing bank as well. And a bus that take the elderly to the grocery store in neighboring towns.
Baptist: This is the only one I’ve never been to. But they are widely known for their fantastic youth groups. They just built a new church in the past 5 years, and it’s pretty big. They also have a local camp for kids that is well attended.
Mennonites: They have services on Sunday mornings and evenings and during the week at least once if not more often for special things. They have their own school for their children. They have several groups that meet during the month and Sunday School for children and adults. They are small, probably just a tad bigger than our local Catholic church. Their sense of fellowship is amazing compared to other churches. I can almost promise that if you go to their church service on Sunday, you will receive many invitations to go to homes and have Sunday dinner with different families.
LDS Church: About the same size as our Catholic church. They have many different activities going on during the week, and the church in our little town has a ton of stuff going on for the kids.
In my little area, I do understand why people go to churches other than their own Catholic church.
I live in a very small town. We do have an abundance of churches.
Catholic. Often less than 20 people at vigil mass, and rarely more than 35-40 at Sunday mass. No bible study. No groups that meet and do things of any kind. CCD is on Sundays after mass. No further activities after Sunday for anyone. Daily mass on Tues. through Friday.
Coffee, conversation and donuts once a month after the Sunday mass (nothing for the Vigil mass.) And this gathering will probably come to an end because the gal who made it happen just passed away recently.
3 Non-denominations churches: Church on Sundays mornings, Sunday evenings and Wed. evenings. Each church has at least 2 bibles studies during the week. Sunday school for adults and for children every Sunday before Services. Various pot lucks and carry ins during the year usually once a month. Most of these churches are packed every Sunday. They have various groups that meet throughout the weeks and month for men, women and children.
One of these churches has a food bank that gives out food monthly and a clothing bank as well. And a bus that take the elderly to the grocery store in neighboring towns.
Baptist: This is the only one I’ve never been to. But they are widely known for their fantastic youth groups. They just built a new church in the past 5 years, and it’s pretty big. They also have a local camp for kids that is well attended.
Mennonites: They have services on Sunday mornings and evenings and during the week at least once if not more often for special things. They have their own school for their children. They have several groups that meet during the month and Sunday School for children and adults. They are small, probably just a tad bigger than our local Catholic church. Their sense of fellowship is amazing compared to other churches. I can almost promise that if you go to their church service on Sunday, you will receive many invitations to go to homes and have Sunday dinner with different families.
LDS Church: About the same size as our Catholic church. They have many different activities going on during the week, and the church in our little town has a ton of stuff going on for the kids.
In my little area, I do understand why people go to churches other than their own Catholic church.
P
pmadans
Guest
I think Ad Orientem sums it up very simply. We need to know our faith. Plenty of resources out there.
“Because they don’t know their faith. And because fallen man is inclined to what makes him feel good rather than what makes him good.”
“Because they don’t know their faith. And because fallen man is inclined to what makes him feel good rather than what makes him good.”
R
randyherdes
Guest
how many roman catholic church’s deciple people like this?
yes the catholic chruch has apsostolic righteous-- see how the effect has on your own – chruch and your own priest!!
gee – when they have a healing mass-- every -one is healed!!!
and after a homily – i am just “pumped” why isn’t everyone??
youtu.be/Ml1-nLDcNqQ
The Christ also commanded His servants to do the same as He did, as again made possible by the Holy Spirit:
The Seventy gave evidence of how the power of God always overcomes the powers of Satan:
“How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with The Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with Him.” (Acts 10:38 KJV)
“These signs will accompany those who believe,” he is speaking about the disciples. I think we can even insert these words, “those among you who believe,” without doing violence to the text. Jesus is saying to these disciples, “Now go and preach in all creation. And to encourage you, in the face of the hostility you will encounter, certain signs that only God could do will accompany you.” They would be given power to deliver from demons, power to set free from demonic influence. They would be given power to praise God in a new language.
“New tongues” is speaking in a language that hasn’t been learned. The disciples would be given this ability as a means of praising God. Paul himself tells us in Firsst Corinthians 12, that he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to man.
I do not know why it is so hard for us to accept that fact.
Everywhere people consider tongues as a means of speaking to men, of preaching the gospel, or of conveying messages or prophesying events. And yet Paul says he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men, but to God.
He goes on to make clear that speaking in tongues is an act of praise and thanksgiving unto God for his magnificent works among men, as a sign to unbelievers. You remember these two things are underscored very strongly in Paul’s great treatment of this in
First Corinthians 14. “New tongues” is not spoken to men;
it is spoken to God.
And it is not for believers;
it is a sign for unbelievers.
yes the catholic chruch has apsostolic righteous-- see how the effect has on your own – chruch and your own priest!!
gee – when they have a healing mass-- every -one is healed!!!
and after a homily – i am just “pumped” why isn’t everyone??
youtu.be/Ml1-nLDcNqQ
The Christ also commanded His servants to do the same as He did, as again made possible by the Holy Spirit:
Code:
"And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils" (Matthew 10:7-8 KJV)
Code:
"And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. And He said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven" (Luke 10:17-20 KJV)“These signs will accompany those who believe,” he is speaking about the disciples. I think we can even insert these words, “those among you who believe,” without doing violence to the text. Jesus is saying to these disciples, “Now go and preach in all creation. And to encourage you, in the face of the hostility you will encounter, certain signs that only God could do will accompany you.” They would be given power to deliver from demons, power to set free from demonic influence. They would be given power to praise God in a new language.
“New tongues” is speaking in a language that hasn’t been learned. The disciples would be given this ability as a means of praising God. Paul himself tells us in Firsst Corinthians 12, that he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to man.
I do not know why it is so hard for us to accept that fact.
Everywhere people consider tongues as a means of speaking to men, of preaching the gospel, or of conveying messages or prophesying events. And yet Paul says he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men, but to God.
He goes on to make clear that speaking in tongues is an act of praise and thanksgiving unto God for his magnificent works among men, as a sign to unbelievers. You remember these two things are underscored very strongly in Paul’s great treatment of this in
First Corinthians 14. “New tongues” is not spoken to men;
it is spoken to God.
And it is not for believers;
it is a sign for unbelievers.
S
Sailor_Kenshin
Guest
Doesn’t the CC also pass the basket? So are people saying: it’s okay then, but not for any other church, which also has expenses?
I don’t get this.
D
dedo
Guest
I have attended several ND services.
The music is good.
However, the Catholic Sacraments are important to me. Also, I love being able to walk into a Catholic Church all over the world and know what to expect.
We had a hurricane a couple years ago. The day after there was no power and it was very difficult to even find a gas station that was open.
The coffee shop at a ND church was open, and they gave me a free cup of coffee.
The music is good.
However, the Catholic Sacraments are important to me. Also, I love being able to walk into a Catholic Church all over the world and know what to expect.
We had a hurricane a couple years ago. The day after there was no power and it was very difficult to even find a gas station that was open.
The coffee shop at a ND church was open, and they gave me a free cup of coffee.
S
Sailor_Kenshin
Guest
There is a ND church almost literally across the street from us. After we had been without power light and heat for ten days, they let us warm up and charge our devices and offered to make us coffee, AND set about trying to get us a generator.
J
JimG
Guest
I think that to a certain extent we are comparing apples and oranges when comparing ND services to the Mass. Non-denominational services are more entertaining, and are meant to be. They are intended to meet people’s emotional and social needs, and there is nothing wrong with that.
But the Mass has never been about entertainment and it really cannot be. It is an act of worship, and worship is not about us or our needs: it is always about God. It is about allowing us to participate in the one sacrifice that Christ offered to the Father. We unite our own daily sacrifices with his one great atoning sacrifice offered eternally to the Father and offered eternally in every Mass. We present his sacrifice and ours to the Father, and then are personally united to Jesus in the Eucharist. That can never occur anywhere except at Mass.
Reading through the Eucharistic prayer makes this apparent. It is directed to the Father, offering the sacrifice of his Son. Although, I have to admit that the exalted language of the Eucharistic Prayer that I used to read in the 1962 English / Latin missal made it even more apparent to me, even as a child. (I’m not disparaging the English Mass; I like it, but I find that it is often easier to be distracted when I am not forced to read the missal along with the priest.)
As to personal distractions from babies, children and others, I think sometimes we may not realize that God recognizes our attention to crying children as just as much a grace-giving sacrifice as the most ardent attention to the altar. Perhaps the Mass in which we felt most distracted was the one in which we received the most grace.
But the Mass has never been about entertainment and it really cannot be. It is an act of worship, and worship is not about us or our needs: it is always about God. It is about allowing us to participate in the one sacrifice that Christ offered to the Father. We unite our own daily sacrifices with his one great atoning sacrifice offered eternally to the Father and offered eternally in every Mass. We present his sacrifice and ours to the Father, and then are personally united to Jesus in the Eucharist. That can never occur anywhere except at Mass.
Reading through the Eucharistic prayer makes this apparent. It is directed to the Father, offering the sacrifice of his Son. Although, I have to admit that the exalted language of the Eucharistic Prayer that I used to read in the 1962 English / Latin missal made it even more apparent to me, even as a child. (I’m not disparaging the English Mass; I like it, but I find that it is often easier to be distracted when I am not forced to read the missal along with the priest.)
As to personal distractions from babies, children and others, I think sometimes we may not realize that God recognizes our attention to crying children as just as much a grace-giving sacrifice as the most ardent attention to the altar. Perhaps the Mass in which we felt most distracted was the one in which we received the most grace.
- Status