Why are so many Evangelicals becoming Orthodox and not Roman Catholic?

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JesusforMadrid said:
As an Evangelical Anglican, I am clearly grappling with many of these issues. I too have many doubts about Marian piety. For me, there are several aspect of Orthodoxy that make it more palatable than going to Rome:
  1. Authority. I like the idea of authority coming from the Holy Spirit, through the laity, which recognises a particular doctrine as being consonant with the Scriptures and the consensus of the Early Church, what the Orthodox group together to define as “Tradition”. The idea of a monarch-like pope as final authority, and speaking infallibly ex cathedra, doesn’t square with my reading of Scripture and the Early Church
  2. Organization. I like the conciliar approach of the Orthodox rather than the rigid authoritarian approach of Rome. Granted, conciliar approaches produce friction and disputes, as we see even in the book of Acts. Yet I think it is the more Biblical approach.
  3. Filioque. This seems like an arcane issue, but in fact I think the logic of the Orthodox position is compelling, aside from historical arguments for why or why not. If the Holy Trinity is a triangle, by adding the filioque clause to the creed, Rome has inverted the Trinity, putting Jesus and God on top and relegating the Holy Spirit to a position of inferiority. It is argued by Orthodox that this has practical effects, when played out over 1000 years of church history. First, the Holy Spirit has a historically less important role in the RC churches than in the Orthodox Churches. Second, by elevating Jesus over the Holy Spirit, the RC church has implicitly elevated Mary as well and this manifests itself in the extremes of Marianism in the RC church to which you refer.
  4. Mary. You refer to your difficulties with this and while some Roman Catholics will gloss over the differences in doctrine between the two churches, Orthodoxy has not succumb to the same elevation of Mary to a almost quasi-divine status as has the RC church. I have not ever seen, for example, an icon of just the Theotokos in an Orthodox Church: she is always holding Jesus. Perhaps I am mistaken, but I do not think they exist. By contrast, the first thing you see in many RC churches, at least in my country, is a statue of Mary at the front of the Church, sometimes above the Cross! I have absolutely no fear that the Orthodox would adopt ever more elaborate titles for the Theotokos such as Co-mediatrix or Co-redemtrix. I am speaking here more about impressions than fundamental doctrine, which I know is similar, except for the IC.
  5. Mystery versus scholasticism. I think the EO, by avoiding the tendency of scholasticism, have avoided wrongly defining several doctrines. For example, I don’t understand why the need for defining transubstantiation as such. The EO position is actually remarkable similar to the Lutheran position of co-substantiation, as has been shown in recent dialogues between the two churches.
I have followed the solid, logical arguments by RCs in favour of purgatory and indulgences. However, defining these as such is unnecessary, especially when these cannot be defended by the consensus of the fathers, in my opinion. If one is going to speculate, as Augustine did regarding purgatory, so be it, but do not elevate this to dogma.

Of course, there are arguments for avoiding Orthodoxy as well: jurisdictional chaos, very foreign and seemingly endless liturgies (albeit beautiful), the “ethnic” nature to many Orthodox parishes. Still, seems more compelling to me if I were to make the switch.

I would love to check out Western Rite Orthodoxy, because it might seem more familiar liturgically to me.
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Have you read any of Scott Hahn’s books? Someone gave me his book, “Rome, Sweet Home.” It might help you.

Have you heard of the Coming Home Network? They have resources and help available as well.

Have you asked Jesus for truth and where He wants you? That is what I did and He answered.

God bless you on you spiritual journey,

Kathy
 
JesusforMadrid said:
  1. Filioque. This seems like an arcane issue, but in fact I think the logic of the Orthodox position is compelling, aside from historical arguments for why or why not. If the Holy Trinity is a triangle, by adding the filioque clause to the creed, Rome has inverted the Trinity, putting Jesus and God on top and relegating the Holy Spirit to a position of inferiority. It is argued by Orthodox that this has practical effects, when played out over 1000 years of church history. First, the Holy Spirit has a historically less important role in the RC churches than in the Orthodox Churches. Second, by elevating Jesus over the Holy Spirit, the RC church has implicitly elevated Mary as well and this manifests itself in the extremes of Marianism in the RC church to which you refer.
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Hi JesusforMadrid. I’ve said more than once that I don’t think I could ever be Protestant, because of their position on the filioque. Namely that they accept the insertion of the filioque in the Creed, and yet reject the very authority that authorized that insertion in the first place (i.e. the Papacy).

But of course, that’s a little different from the issue you’re talking about, i.e. the question of whether the filioque is even correct. That’s a more difficult issue, and I won’t go into it right now except to say that I don’t think the “inferiority” argument works at all. Clearly, all three persons of the Trinity are equally, irrespective of procession/generation. (Of course, an Orthodox person could respond that many Catholics claim that the filioque is necessary for the equality of the Father and Son – in the face of the Arian heresy – which just goes to show that we all need to be careful with our theology.)
 
Peter_J said:
Hi JesusforMadrid. I’ve said more than once that I don’t think I could ever be Protestant, because

of their position on the filioque. Namely that they accept the insertion of the filioque in the Creed, and yet reject the very authority that authorized that insertion in the first place (i.e. the Papacy).

But of course, that’s a little different from the issue you’re talking about, i.e. the question of whether the filioque is even correct. That’s a more difficult issue, and I won’t go into it right now except to say that I don’t think the “inferiority” argument works at all. Clearly, all three persons of the Trinity are equally, irrespective of procession/generation. (Of course, an Orthodox person could respond that many Catholics claim that the filioque is necessary for the equality of the Father and Son – in the face of the Arian heresy – which just goes to show that we all need to be careful with our theology.)
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Hi PeterJ,

You see, the Spanish have been causing problems for centuries!

Mea culpa.

Just kidding. A few comments:

You are right about Protestants and I think most Protestants have never even considered that the Creed they might occasionally recite is not the original Nicene Creed. Too bad.

I think adding bad theology–the filioque–to counter bad theology–Arianism-- is not justifiable, however good their intentions were down in Toledo. They could have done as in the East: add “Christ our God” to the liturgy. I haven’t checked the Mozarabic liturgy–it would be interesting if this were there.

In any case, Pope Leo III was right not to divide the church by inserting the filioque, in spite of pressures to do so by the West. Pity his successors didn’t follow suite.
 
I just found this story, about a Lutheran family’s conversion and experiences with ROCOR (Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia):

orthodoxcultsthetruth.blogspot.com/

As far as I know, Fr. Seraphim Rose was considered as St. John Maximovitch’s disciple and successor at ROCOR’s episcopate in San Francisco. Fr. Rose’s books are still in wide circulation at ROCOR; I saw several of his books when I attended a ROCOR conference in 2004.

ROCOR re-established communion with the Moscow Patriarchate in 2006.
 
Why are evangelicals jumping ship and turning to Catholicism/Orthodoxy? Because Protestantism is shallowing and splintering at an exponential rate. With the advent of non-denominational churches and pan-evangelicalism, the reintroduction of heretical thought is rampant. In 40 or 50 more years, the protestant churches will have ceased to exist except as small little cults.

Now, why is there somewhat of a preference for Orthodoxy over Catholicism? Fear of the Papacy and its infallibility. Ex-protestants are much more comfortable granting infallibility to the ecumenical councils than placing it in the hands of one man, who is often, as history has shown, quite corrupt.
 
Prodigal_Child said:
Why are evangelicals jumping ship and turning to Catholicism/Orthodoxy? Because Protestantism is shallowing and splintering at an exponential rate. With the advent of non-denominational churches and pan-evangelicalism, the reintroduction of heretical thought is rampant. In 40 or 50 more years, the protestant churches will have ceased to exist except as small little cults.

Now, why is there somewhat of a preference for Orthodoxy over Catholicism? Fear of the Papacy and its infallibility. Ex-protestants are much more comfortable granting infallibility to the ecumenical councils than placing it in the hands of one man, who is often, as history has shown, quite corrupt.
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The Prodigal Child
Missing the Catholic Church even though I can no longer be there.
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Hi Prodigal Child,

Welcome to the forums. I think your observation is quite perceptive. Would you mind declaring why you can no longer be in the Catholic Church?

Curiously,
Mick
👍
 
I’ve only just taken an interest in Orthodoxy myself. At my old job as a restaurant cashier, I met a lady with some pretty icons around her neck. She explained that she was Protestant and converted to Orthodoxy (a very rare thing!) and recommended that I check out “Ancient Faith Radio” online to look up Orthodox stuff.

I wouldn’t know why Protestants are converting to Orthodoxy - I never heard of those statistics before.
(and btw, Prodigal Child, your reasons are fightin’ words, buddy! :slapfight:)

I can’t even visit an Orthodox church if I tried, though. The closest one to my town is miles away, compared to the small Catholic parish in the main square (which can be compared to the Methodist, Mennonite, Baptist, Presbyterian, etc. churches/meetings elsewhere!)

I think another reason people may be going to Orthodoxy rather than Catholicism is the bad public rap that the Catholic church has been having. The sex abuse cases, Fr. Cutie scandal - even go back in time and you’ll find something up with the Catholic Church. No, its not fair, but tell the media that!

The media is still waiting for the Orthodox church to have a problem or make a mistake. 🤷
 
Joseph L said:
I just found this story, about a Lutheran family’s conversion and experiences with ROCOR (Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia):

orthodoxcultsthetruth.blogspot.com/

As far as I know, Fr. Seraphim Rose was considered as St. John Maximovitch’s disciple and successor at ROCOR’s episcopate in San Francisco. Fr. Rose’s books are still in wide circulation at ROCOR; I saw several of his books when I attended a ROCOR conference in 2004.

ROCOR re-established communion with the Moscow Patriarchate in 2006.
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Note to self: stay away from crazy Russian Orthodox priests.

Seriously, whilst I feel very sorry for this girl, you cannot be suggesting that this is a typical Orthodox experience. Have you ever visited the Opus Dei Awareness Network web page? There are 20 or more testimonies just like hers.

Does that make Opus Dei or the Catholic Church bad? I know many who have been very blessed by both.

The bottom line is that sometimes good things like fasting and prayer can be abused, either by the teacher or disciple.

I won’t consider this story as typical.

But just in case, I’ll watch out for the crazy ROCOR Ruzkies.
 
SSTeacher said:
Hi Prodigal Child,

Welcome to the forums. I think your observation is quite perceptive. Would you mind declaring why you can no longer be in the Catholic Church?

Curiously,
Mick
👍
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Hi Mick:

I don’t mind answering, so long as you don’t mistake my answer as an effort to subvert your faith. I hope you become the very best Christian you can be. I am not here to cause any trouble.

I converted from evangelicalism to Catholicism when I was 27. I’m in my mid 40’s now.

I’ve always had a heart for Israel and the Jewish people. I worked hard ecumenically to make John Paul the Great’s apology to the Jews a reality, more than mere words. Sure there are still anti-Semites in the church, but the real heartache was that the overwhelming majority of Catholics just don’t care.

I found that the main obstacle, both historically and in the present, was a doctrine called Supercessionism (also known as Replacement Theology). It means that the Church has replaced Israel as the Covenant People, that the Church is the New Israel. It is THIS doctrine that is at the root of the anti-Semitic behavior by Christians. All the discrimination. All the torture. All the deaths. The pogroms. Ultimately, the society that allowed the holocaust.

Supercessionism is no small doctrine. It’s a great big gigantic doctrine that has formed the core of ecclesiology for the last 2000 years. I had to look it square in the face and realize that the gates of hell very much DID prevail.

Basically, I have lost my faith in the authority of the church. And when that goes, EVERYTHING goes. There no longer is the authority of scriptures, for example. Without oral or written authority, nothing is left. Nothing.

Except what was before the Church: Judaism.

The problem is, I’m not a Jew.

And that’s where I’m at. Of the creed I can still say “We believe in One God, the Father the almighty, Maker of Heaven and Earth, of all things seen and unseen.” And that’s it.

Remember, I’m only answering because you asked!

Shalom.
 
Prodigal_Child said:
Hi Mick:

I don’t mind answering, so long as you don’t mistake my answer as an effort to subvert your faith. I hope you become the very best Christian you can be. I am not here to cause any trouble.

I converted from evangelicalism to Catholicism when I was 27. I’m in my mid 40’s now.

I’ve always had a heart for Israel and the Jewish people. I worked hard ecumenically to make John Paul the Great’s apology to the Jews a reality, more than mere words. Sure there are still anti-Semites in the church, but the real heartache was that the overwhelming majority of Catholics just don’t care.

I found that the main obstacle, both historically and in the present, was a doctrine called Supercessionism (also known as Replacement Theology). It means that the Church has replaced Israel as the Covenant People, that the Church is the New Israel. It is THIS doctrine that is at the root of the anti-Semitic behavior by Christians. All the discrimination. All the torture. All the deaths. The pogroms. Ultimately, the society that allowed the holocaust.

Supercessionism is no small doctrine. It’s a great big gigantic doctrine that has formed the core of ecclesiology for the last 2000 years. I had to look it square in the face and realize that the gates of hell very much DID prevail.

Basically, I have lost my faith in the authority of the church. And when that goes, EVERYTHING goes. There no longer is the authority of scriptures, for example. Without oral or written authority, nothing is left. Nothing.

Except what was before the Church: Judaism.

The problem is, I’m not a Jew.

And that’s where I’m at. Of the creed I can still say “We believe in One God, the Father the almighty, Maker of Heaven and Earth, of all things seen and unseen.” And that’s it.

Remember, I’m only answering because you asked!

Shalom.
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Could it be that your faith is misplaced? Is your faith in dogma or your perception of the Church or in the Lord Jesus Christ? Have you had an encounter with the Living Lord Jesus Christ? Have you repented of your sins? Let that be your foundation. The Church is built upon the Cornerstone.

1Pet.2

[1] So put away all malice and all guile and insincerity and envy and all slander.
[2] Like newborn babes, long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up to salvation;
[3] for you have tasted the kindness of the Lord.
[4] Come to him, to that living stone, rejected by men but in God’s sight chosen and precious;
[5] and like living stones be yourselves built into a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
[6] For it stands in scripture: “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious, and he who believes in him will not be put to shame.”
[7] To you therefore who believe, he is precious, but for those who do not believe, “The very stone which the builders rejected has become the head of the corner,”
[8] and “A stone that will make men stumble, a rock that will make them fall”;
for they stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.
[9] But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s own people, that you may declare the wonderful deeds of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.
[10] Once you were no people but now you are God’s people; once you had not received mercy but now you have received mercy.
 
Kathy2004 said:
Could it be that your faith is misplaced? Is your faith in dogma or your perception of the Church or in the Lord Jesus Christ? Have you had an encounter with the Living Lord Jesus Christ? Have you repented of your sins? Let that be your foundation. The Church is built upon the Cornerstone.
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Again, I don’t mind answering, but I’m concerned at the possibility that my answer might be misconstrued as an attempt to destabilize the forum in some way. I’m really not here to bother you, okay?

My faith is in God. For most of my life, I would have said my faith is in Christ and in his Church. Yes, I have repented of my sins, and when I stumble, I continue to repent. I am nothing without Him. If I may offer an analogy… Imagine a directional lamp, and a piece of paper is in front of the lamp that has the name Jesus written on it. That is what most of my life saw – I would look toward the light, and see it through Jesus. Now the paper has fallen away. BUT THE LIGHT IS STILL THERE. I realize that all those times I thought I was seeing Jesus, it was really the light behind the paper that I was looking to, it was ALWAYS the light, it was ALWAYS God. And it always WILL BE God. Now, with the paper gone, I see the light clearer, purer than before. There are no obstacles between us. I need no intermediary.
 
Prodigal_Child said:
SSTeacher;5269952:
Hi Prodigal Child,

Welcome to the forums. I think your observation is quite perceptive. Would you mind declaring why you can no longer be in the Catholic Church?

Curiously,
Mick
👍
Click to expand...
Hi Mick:

I don’t mind answering, so long as you don’t mistake my answer as an effort to subvert your faith. I hope you become the very best Christian you can be. I am not here to cause any trouble.

I converted from evangelicalism to Catholicism when I was 27. I’m in my mid 40’s now.

I’ve always had a heart for Israel and the Jewish people. I worked hard ecumenically to make John Paul the Great’s apology to the Jews a reality, more than mere words. Sure there are still anti-Semites in the church, but the real heartache was that the overwhelming majority of Catholics just don’t care.

I found that the main obstacle, both historically and in the present, was a doctrine called Supercessionism (also known as Replacement Theology). It means that the Church has replaced Israel as the Covenant People, that the Church is the New Israel. It is THIS doctrine that is at the root of the anti-Semitic behavior by Christians. All the discrimination. All the torture. All the deaths. The pogroms. Ultimately, the society that allowed the holocaust.

Supercessionism is no small doctrine. It’s a great big gigantic doctrine that has formed the core of ecclesiology for the last 2000 years. I had to look it square in the face and realize that the gates of hell very much DID prevail.

Basically, I have lost my faith in the authority of the church. And when that goes, EVERYTHING goes. There no longer is the authority of scriptures, for example. Without oral or written authority, nothing is left. Nothing.

Except what was before the Church: Judaism.

The problem is, I’m not a Jew.

And that’s where I’m at. Of the creed I can still say “We believe in One God, the Father the almighty, Maker of Heaven and Earth, of all things seen and unseen.” And that’s it.

Remember, I’m only answering because you asked!

Shalom.
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Hello again, Prodigal Child,

Thanks ever so much for furnishing such a comprehensive answer. You made it easy for me to follow your thinking. I wish you well on your spiritual journey.

Cordially,
Mick
👍
 
Prodigal_Child said:
Again, I don’t mind answering, but I’m concerned at the possibility that my answer might be misconstrued as an attempt to destabilize the forum in some way. I’m really not here to bother you, okay?

My faith is in God. For most of my life, I would have said my faith is in Christ and in his Church. Yes, I have repented of my sins, and when I stumble, I continue to repent. I am nothing without Him. If I may offer an analogy… Imagine a directional lamp, and a piece of paper is in front of the lamp that has the name Jesus written on it. That is what most of my life saw – I would look toward the light, and see it through Jesus. Now the paper has fallen away. BUT THE LIGHT IS STILL THERE. I realize that all those times I thought I was seeing Jesus, it was really the light behind the paper that I was looking to, it was ALWAYS the light, it was ALWAYS God. And it always WILL BE God. Now, with the paper gone, I see the light clearer, purer than before. There are no obstacles between us. I need no intermediary.
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Do you believe that Jesus is God?

Kathy
 
Kathy2004 said:
Do you believe that Jesus is God?

Kathy
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No. That was the point of the analogy, that I no longer make any connection between Jesus and God whatsover. In fact, I do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah, or even some fantasticly original rabbi. I think he was an observant Jew of the school of Hillel during the years that the school of Hillel ran the Sanhedron. I think he came to believe he wa the Messiah (much the same as Bar Kochba did) but failed. It was a nice try. He is simply an irrelevancy to me. However, I have no intention of undermining your own faith in him.

What I will always find uniquely fascinating is how in the space of ONE GENERATION, the Netzarim moved from being a sect within Judaism to being a completely independent Catholic Church. It’s just interesting history.
 
Prodigal_Child said:
What I will always find uniquely fascinating is how in the space of ONE GENERATION, the Netzarim moved from being a sect within Judaism to being a completely independent Catholic Church. It’s just interesting history.
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I don’t believe that the process of separation of the Gentile Christians from the Jewish Christians was a one generation event.

I would say…maybe three generations, perhaps longer. I agree that it is a fascinating subject.
 
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