Why are so many Evangelicals becoming Orthodox and not Roman Catholic?

[JesusforMadrid]

I know, I know, I know. Many posters on Catholic Answers are Evangelical converts to Roman Catholicism. But lets be clear: every year there are thousands, perhaps millions more Roman Catholics who are becoming Evangelical. Estimates were that in the largest RC country, Brazil, a million Catholics were joining evangelical churches every year. Visit an American non denominational evangelical church and you will find, based on my experience, that a quarter to a third of the congregation were raised Roman Catholic.

Now, about converts to Orthodoxy: let us attend!

There has been a steady stream of converts, some well known such as Frankie Schaeffer (son of Francis) and Rod Dreher (Crunchy Con and former protestant and then RC). Over 80% of converts to Orthodoxy in the US are former Evangelicals and charismatics. Over 50% of the priests at Orthodox seminaries in the US are converts, mostly former Evangelicals. In the Antiochian Orthodox jurisdiction, perhaps 70% of priests are former Evangelicals. 2000 former members of the Evangelical Orthodox Church converted in one day. Several parishes from the troubled Charismatic Episcopal Church have joined Orthodoxy en masse in the past year, using the Western Rite.

You can read about this trend here:

orthodox-church.info/eureka/asp/becomingorthodox.asp

What is happening? Why are these Evangelicals becoming Orthodox in such great numbers and not Roman Catholic? I have my own theories but would love to understand this better.

 

[Harpazo]

I know, I know, I know. Many posters on Catholic Answers are Evangelical converts to Roman Catholicism. But lets be clear: every year there are thousands, perhaps millions more Roman Catholics who are becoming Evangelical. Estimates were that in the largest RC country, Brazil, a million Catholics were joining evangelical churches every year. Visit an American non denominational evangelical church and you will find, based on my experience, that a quarter to a third of the congregation were raised Roman Catholic.

Now, about converts to Orthodoxy: let us attend!

There has been a steady stream of converts, some well known such as Frankie Schaeffer (son of Francis) and Rod Dreher (Crunchy Con and former protestant and then RC). Over 80% of converts to Orthodoxy in the US are former Evangelicals and charismatics. Over 50% of the priests at Orthodox seminaries in the US are converts, mostly former Evangelicals. In the Antiochian Orthodox jurisdiction, perhaps 70% of priests are former Evangelicals. 2000 former members of the Evangelical Orthodox Church converted in one day. Several parishes from the troubled Charismatic Episcopal Church have joined Orthodoxy en masse in the past year, using the Western Rite.

You can read about this trend here:

orthodox-church.info/eureka/asp/becomingorthodox.asp

What is happening? Why are these Evangelicals becoming Orthodox in such great numbers and not Roman Catholic? I have my own theories but would love to understand this better.

Christ is risen!

I cannot speak on behalf of Evangelicals converting to Orthodoxy, because I am not one, but I can offer some observances. Many are perhaps “at the end of the rope” of what Evangelical Protestantism has to offer. They might be searching for more depth, and believe you me, the Orthodox Church has tremendous depth. Why don’t they become Catholic? In many cases, Catholic parishes in America are just like the Evangelical churches, using the same types of music and manners of worship. They might see it as a “dead-end.”

That’s my take on it. Hope that gets the ball rolling.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[The_Prodigal]

Why are these Evangelicals becoming Orthodox in such great numbers and not Roman Catholic? I have my own theories but would love to understand this better.

There is a bias against RC ecclesiology and the papacy among most Evangelicals, no?

And so these converts get the perceived advantages of liturgy, tradition, apostolic succession, and the sacraments without the perceived drawbacks.

 

[Cluny]

Too many convert because they see Orthodoxy as being the last bastion of cultural conservatism, and they bring with them a fundamentalist mind-set that is totally antithentical to Orthodoxy.

But, as I’ve always said, it takes a while for the Chrism to sink in.

 

[Hesychios]

In my parish most of the converts are from Anglican, Methodist and RC & BCC.

I know of only one who started out as a fundamentalist Christian.

 

[dzheremi]

I think Harpazo has got it right. When I first encountered the Catholic Church (Roman rite), it was in a subconcious attempt to get away from what I saw as the failings of the Protestantism that I had been raised in: Its rootlessness, disorganized nature, lack of unity, its irreverence, etc. Now that I have been Catholic for several years, I can’t help but notice some practices in the local parish that make me whince a bit, because they are uncomfortably close to the emotional spectacles of many Protestant churches. I, like most people (I am assuming), want to worship GOD in the most reverent way possible, and that reverence is frankly missing in a lot of ways among some Catholics.

A few weeks ago, in a conversation with a local Dominican priest, I brought up the idea of “the awesome effect”, an idea that a Linguistics professor I had during my time as an undergraduate always liked to talk about. It goes something like this: Time was, way back when, the word “awesome” was used exclusively for religious (or quasi-religious) experiences. To describe something as “awesome” meant that it had literally changed or destroyed your life: It was so awesome that you had a physical, spiritual reaction to it - you fell on your knees before it and cried (or were stunned to silence, in awe of it), maybe you could not even bare to look at it (assuming it was a concrete object), you were made to feel absolutely insignificant before it, and when it was over your life was not the same as it had been before you had encountered it. You came away from it a new person.

Now, of course, “awesome” is just another adjective used to describe soft drinks, basketball players, etc. Very un-awesome things. It has lost its power due to its day to day use in situations in which it is absolutely inappropriate to use.

The priest’s response to this was that, yes, in the West by and large we have lost this feeling of true “awesomeness”, and this extends to the manner in which we practice as western Catholics (not necessarily Roman rite Catholic individuals, but certainly in general, as a Church in the USA), He said that in his experience (which echoed my own) this has a lot to do with the culture that we are in (that is, an Anglo community in the USA), as certain places in the global south that are Catholic still preserve a sense of mystery and awesomeness. And, of course, the Orthodox have this as well, and have never lost it.

I am not entirely sure what to make of all this personally in terms of my own faith, but I think this frank discussion with a Catholic priest says a lot. If even Roman Catholic clergy recognize that there is something missing in a lot of U.S. Roman Catholic churches, why wouldn’t other people?

 

[Daedelus76]

The Papacy was mentioned… acutally I have som Orthodox friends online that are former Baptists… and the ecclessiology of the Roman Catholics was an issue, the idea the Pope being infallible. There are alot of other reasons, too.

I have to admit, going to a Continuing Anglican church (“Prayer Book catholics” - Anglo-Catholic but moreso in ritual and sacrament than dogma) and really, not sure what the future of Anglicanism is… I am tempted as much by the East as the West. I have issues with Papal Infallibility, and all those Mariarn dogmas would be an issue for me (some of the Marian piety of the East, of course, might be an issue for me too- some Orthodox don’t spell it out but they hold “private” beliefs almost so strongly there’s no difference between Catholicism and Orthodoxy. While I have no problem with some veneration of the Blessed Virgin mary, wheather or not the she was actually born sinless or not, or perpetually virgin, doesn’t matter to me- I don’t see it as all that relevent to salvation or intercommunion. But Rome does, and many Orthodox certainly act in a like manner).

I know of a traditional Anglican priest- an Anglo-Catholic, he used to be Continuing but now he’s aligning with a conservative province, trying to rejoin the Anglican Communion (and he probably wouldn’t go to Rome, as he also is as much Reformed as catholic- not uncommon with Anglo-Catholics). With the verdict over female bishops, though, in the UK… it seems to me the nail is in the coffin. It’s not so much I am against female clergy in principle, it’s a matter of tradition and experience. Ever denom. and sect that has adopted women in higher ecclessiastical positions has eventually fallen into severe rationalistic/modernistic thinking. The whole push for this, in fact, is based alot on rationalistic/modernistic arguments.

 

[JesusforMadrid]

In my parish most of the converts are from Anglican, Methodist and RC & BCC.

I know of only one who started out as a fundamentalist Christian.

Actually, I meant “evangelical”, not “fundamentalist”. Many Methodists are indeed evangelicals, and as for Anglican evangelicals, I myself am one. Many of the converts to Western Rite are Anglican evangelicals fed up with the situation in the Episcopal Church.

 

[JesusforMadrid]

There is a bias against RC ecclesiology and the papacy among most Evangelicals, no?

And so these converts

get the perceived advantages of liturgy, tradition, apostolic succession, and the sacraments without the perceived drawbacks.

There is some truth to this, although I think you have over simplified it a bit. Many Evangelicals have a bit of Romophobia and some would probably feel closer to Judaism than Roman Catholicism (oddly).

Nonetheless, there is a certain logic to this bias: evangelicals are protestants and the Protest ant Reformers sought to return the Church to a more “orthodox” faith that was free of the perceived excesses of Roman Catholicism.

I have read several Orthodox authors who view the Reformation as an inevitable, albeit ill-fated counter-reaction to Roman deviations from Orthodoxy. In their view, Rome is too hot, Geneva is too cold and Constantinople is just right–the obvious place to come home to.

 

[The_Prodigal]

Why don’t they become Catholic? In many cases, Catholic parishes in America are just like the Evangelical churches, using the same types of music and manners of worship. They might see it as a “dead-end.”

On the other hand, wouldn’t the very familiarity of Roman Catholic worship and music be attractive to some? Of course the ones who end up Orthodox might be looking for a change, but not everyone wants to toss the baby out with the bathwater.

I think Harpazo has got it right…

The priest’s response to this was that, yes, in the West by and large we have lost this feeling of true “awesomeness”, and this extends to the manner in which we practice as western Catholics (not necessarily Roman rite Catholic individuals, but certainly in general, as a Church in the USA), He said that in his experience (which echoed my own) this has a lot to do with the culture that we are in (that is, an Anglo community in the USA), as certain places in the global south that are Catholic still preserve a sense of mystery and awesomeness. And, of course, the Orthodox have this as well, and have never lost it.

One convert from an evangelical background to Roman Catholicism I know has a very low opinion of the OF Mass and the hymns, and assists with his family at our parish’s EF mass. I think the sense of “mystery and awesomeness” he finds there is (in part) what draws him to that Mass.

 

[Monica4316]

I don’t think this is really correct, statistically.

Most Orthodox are converts cause the “cradle Orthodox” Christians live in countries like Greece and Russia, not America.

Also, there are far less Orthodox than there are Catholics.

When you take these two things into account, there are probably the same amount of evangelicals converting to both.

Btw, I converted from evangelical Protestantism to Catholicism

and I disagree that there is no “mystery” or the sense of the “awesome” in the Catholic Church…maybe the Novus Ordo is not the best example, but what about the Latin Mass or Eastern Catholic liturgy? In fact, the Eastern Catholic liturgy is just like the Orthodox liturgy so there 's no reason to not be Catholic and to switch to Orthodoxy if you want a beautiful liturgy… there’s more in Catholicism than just the Novus Ordo.

 

[BernadetteM]

I went to an Orthodox Church that was western. I believe that it was created for former Episcopalians. They used the BCP. To be honest I found it much dryer and there was less mystery in the liturgy than in my former Anglo-Catholic church.

No bells were used, they used a small wooden board instead of bells to announce the consecration.

The priest used the same vestments as they did in the Episcopal church. I was very disapointed.

The Eastern Orthodox have a beautiful liturgy, but it is so cultural that I think only a small number of people feel comfortable in this tradition. At least I wouldn’t.

The is why I feel that the Catholic Church is the universal Church as no matter where you go there is a feeling of belonging and community.

This of course is just my experience. Everyone is different in their comfort zone. Not to be uncharitable but in general I find most Catholics much less judgemental than the Orthodox. We love and welcome them, but in many cases that feeling is not reciprocated.

Of course there are many loving and open Orthodox.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

 

[Daedelus76]

I went to an Orthodox Church that was western. I believe that it was created for former Episcopalians. They used the BCP. To be honest I found it much dryer and there was less mystery in the liturgy than in my former Anglo-Catholic church.

Anglo-Catholicism varies alot. Some are “Prayer Book Catholics”, or as their Evangelical peers call them “Smells and Bells”, the BCP with an emphasis on the Eucharist and extra sacraments and a few more “aesthetic” touches, similar to the original “Ritualists” who basicly didn’t differ outwardly from their Protestant peers all that much except those points (of course, inwardly, the “ritualists” would argue the sacramentality made all the difference in the world).

I actually find the US 1979 Episcopalian BCP better in some ways. I know there were conservative Anglican Reformed-Catholics like the late Rev. Peter Toon who were critical of it, but I thought it had some positive points, especially the Eastern influence (the liturgy of St. Basil, some of the prayers, the Trisagion, etc.), though it does have some obvious negatives (a less penitential tone, a baptismal rite that is perhaps too humanistic, etc.).

The Eastern Orthodox have a beautiful liturgy, but it is so cultural that I think only a small number of people feel comfortable in this tradition. At least I wouldn’t.

If you can find a parish made of alot of converts, I think it would be better, from what I’ve heard. My local Orthodox are all Copts or Lebanese. Also, one of the priests had some uncharitable words for Muslims. That was a turn-off. I’d have to go to it alot more to decide for sure, of course.

OTOH, I have heard some Orthodox chants sung in English and I could see myself getting into that, and icons do have a more spiritual aspect to them than Western realism. The Orthodox piety emphasizes “Christus Victor” alot, and the theology is also simpler than Roman Catholicism since they rejected Scholasticism. The only problem, like you said it’s much more ethnic and there are phyletist/nationalistic/triumphalist tendencies.

Plus, the obsession with receiving the Eucharist with a spoon or tongs, never touching it with your hands, and having it leavened, seems a bit odd… but that’s their tradition. I don’t see what’s wrong with communion wafers and inctinction or drinking out of the cup. Nor do I think leavening really matters at all.

 

[Harpazo]

Christ is risen!

I just wanted to mention some comments to your observations that might be of help to those lurking.

If you can find a parish made of alot of converts, I think it would be better, from what I’ve heard. My local Orthodox are all Copts or Lebanese. Also, one of the priests had some uncharitable words for Muslims. That was a turn-off. I’d have to go to it alot more to decide for sure, of course.

My parish is entirely converts, except for the priest’s children. It takes at least four visits (minimum) to an Orthodox Divine Liturgy to get a little feeling (albeit, probably small depending on how much you’ve read and watched) of what’s going on. In my opinion, it’s best if you can go to a small parish or a growing mission (in Eastern Christianity a mission is a growing group of Christians that haven’t reached the status of a parish yet). That way you can get integrated into the life of Orthodoxy in a very personal way, but going to any size parish is a good thing.

OTOH, I have heard some Orthodox chants sung in English and I could see myself getting into that, and icons do have a more spiritual aspect to them than Western realism. The Orthodox piety emphasizes “Christus Victor” alot, and the theology is also simpler than Roman Catholicism since they rejected Scholasticism. The only problem, like you said it’s much more ethnic and there are phyletist/nationalistic/triumphalist tendencies.

I just chanted tonight for almost two hours, and the glass of water after was much needed. I think your theology comment is correct. The Orthodox do reject Scholasticism outright and are much more comfortable with mystery, at least compared to Western Catholics. Mysticism is very much appreciated, but doesn’t smack of 60’s Protestantism like some “modern Catholic mystics” I had heard of from a charismatic Benedictine nun at my school. Read the lives of the Elders of Optina or some of the fathers from Mt. Athos. I’m reading an excellent book on a Russian priest who survived years in the gulags. He had several mystical experiences, many of which brought criminals and communists to Christ.

Sadly, in America many parishes still have an “ethno-centricistic” flavor to them, but it is getting better. Converts are revitalizing the Church, especially in America. The problem is getting better. In fact, the newly elected Metropolitan of the OCA is a convert and American born and bred.

Plus, the obsession with receiving the Eucharist with a spoon or tongs, never touching it with your hands, and having it leavened, seems a bit odd… but that’s their tradition. I don’t see what’s wrong with communion wafers and inctinction or drinking out of the cup. Nor do I think leavening really matters at all.

I’m not sure when the custom of the priest distributing the Eucharist from the Chalice came about, but it makes it easier from what I’ve seen. The symbolism behind having it leavened is that we are rising with Christ, if I remember correctly.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[dzheremi]

One convert from an evangelical background to Roman Catholicism I know has a very low opinion of the OF Mass and the hymns, and assists with his family at our parish’s EF mass. I think the sense of “mystery and awesomeness” he finds there is (in part) what draws him to that Mass.

Certainly. I didn’t mean to imply that there is no such mystery or awesomeness in any form of Roman Catholicism. Far from it.

 

[Hesychios]

Actually, I meant “evangelical”, not “fundamentalist”. Many Methodists are indeed evangelicals, and as for Anglican evangelicals, I myself am one. Many of the converts to Western Rite are Anglican evangelicals fed up with the situation in the Episcopal Church.

I see the point…

 

[Hesychios]

I don’t think this is really correct, statistically.

Most Orthodox are converts cause the “cradle Orthodox” Christians live in countries like Greece and Russia, not America.

Also, there are far less Orthodox than there are Catholics.

When you take these two things into account, there are probably the same amount of evangelicals converting to both.

I think you are correct.

How many converts to Catholicism are registered every Easter…150,000? They have to come from somewhere, it could conceivably be that more Evangelicals join the RC, although the way they find themselves making that decision can vary quite a bit.

 

[Hesychios]

I have read several Orthodox authors who view the Reformation as an inevitable…

This I can agree with.

May I add that it is extremely unfortunate.

 

[rtconstant]

I would think that the reasons for desiring to convert to an Apostolic Church would be pretty much the same regardless of which one was chosen. I do think that Protestantism’s history with Rome does keep some evangelicals away. Also as others have noted converts tend to be very conservative, so the more traditional liturgy is very appealing. In America many Churches have liturgies that are not to much different that Protestant Churches. When you’re a convert that’s the last thing you want. After all, you just spent years of soul searching, complete paradigm shifting, and possibly the loss of friends and family to make this leap back home. So having liturgies that are watered down, is not what you’re looking for.

I know as an evangelical convert, I’m very happy with my conversion and so thankful to the Lord that He led me back home. But so far the only “by the book” liturgy that I’ve experienced was at the Cathedral performed by my Bishop (who is very orthodox thank the Lord). So I can see where this might be a really big problem for some. Not saying its good reasoning, but there it is.

 

[Hesychios]

…In fact, the Eastern Catholic liturgy is just like the Orthodox liturgy …

Respectfully, having been there and done that, I would have to disagree. I have attended liturgies all over the Midwest USA.

Neither the Ukrainian Catholic nor the Ruthenian Catholic liturgies are just like the Orthodox, although in a few places they try very very hard to recover it. Mostly they are too compromised. I would grant that the Melkite liturgy is very Orthodox and almost indiscernible from the Antiochian Orthodox in practice.

I did, however, attend a very small Russian Catholic (actually Belorussian) mission in Chicago, and I will tell you that even though the priest was actually a Latin, it was the most authentic liturgy. It was a delightful small committed congregation. Unfortunately the Archdiocese of Chicago decided not to carry the freight anymore, and it closed.