Why are so many Muslims violent?

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Elric said:
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Where religion is involved, you will get extremists.
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Why does religion have to carry this cross alone? It’s like the Nazi stormtroopers in the streets of Germany don’t count? Or the communists? The fact is that non-religious ideology has been responsible for more extremists, violence, and deaths than religion.
 
sedonaman said:
The fact is that non-religious ideology has been responsible for more extremists, violence, and deaths than religion.
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For the sake of reference, would you please provide evidentiary support for this statement? (Said in a gentle, curious, non-combative way.)

Pax,

Dettingen
 
Sword_Brethren said:
Not tolerant if you are a human fetus or a gun owner in Australia were the government says turn in your rifle or go to prison, or in Enlgand were the government says turn in your pistol or go to prison, or a deformed baby that is euthanized in Holland.
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You guys act as if, for instance, the second amendment was enacted as part of a Christian mandate? Well news flash, it was formulated and enacted by men who were largely not Christians (at least virtually none of the prominent founding fathers, the guys responsible for doing most of thinking, like Jefferson, Franklin, Hamilton, Paine, etc., were Christians).

You guys love to point to Hitler (whom I would hardly define as an atheist, but anyway) or Stalin … yet you forget Churchill was agnostic. You’ll say look at communism, forgetting Adam Smith (the father of modern market capitalism) was agnostic or atheist.

You can’t get past the habit of relying on the ad hominen fallacy to shape your arguments. The problem is – your usually wrong even when you try to use those arguments :rolleyes:
 
sedonaman said:
hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE1.HTM
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look at the Nazi state, inspired by antisemitism (and a view of purity) with its roots in Christianity. Communism was just that … atheism didn’t cause communism, it was the other way around.

You can also say the nation who defeated most of those evil regimes was the product of irreligious men (who were mostly deists or if you probe into some of their statements probably closer to agnostic).

The entire premise of your argument is based in ignorance. It’s propaganda designed for those who don’t know enough to realize how fallacious it is.
 
yankee_doodle said:
You guys act as if, for instance, the second amendment was enacted as part of a Christian mandate? Well news flash, it was formulated and enacted by men who were largely not Christians (at least virtually none of the prominent founding fathers, the guys responsible for doing most of thinking, like Jefferson, Franklin, Hamilton, Paine, etc., were Christians). :
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Yes, but most other secular states do not have the right to bear arms. The American example is just an anomaly. The American view was influnenced by the English Bill of Right of 1689 “Freedom for Protestants to bear arms for their own defense, as suitable to their class and as allowed by law” but Modern day secular western Europe honors not the right to bear arms.
 
Sword_Brethren said:
Yes, but most other secular states do not have the right to bear arms. The American example is just an anomaly.
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You’re right, but there’s no such thing as an atheist constitution or manifesto. I’m a libertarian (and frankly I don’t think we have enough freedom from government intrusion), yet I’m an atheist. Bill Maher was a fan of Ron Paul?

Again look at our founding fathers, look at men like Adam Smith and Winston Churchill. Even look at countries like Sweden today (although my guess is gun ownership is severely restricted, as in the rest of Europe, it’s labeled the most irreligious country on earth while it rates highest in categories like quality of life, low crime rate, individual happiness, per capita income, etc.).

Frankly it’s just as likely one could pull a socialist message out of the bible as it is to pull a libertarian message out of it (in fact I sometimes find it ironic that most devout evangelical Christians are republican) 🤷
 
Well someday your descendants will be crying when the secular government comes to take them and their children away.
 
Yeah, Europeans have always been soft like that (even though our political system isn’t anything to brag about these days either).
 
Why can’t you people just start a new thread to talk about whatever it is you are all yakking about?

This thread is about:

Re: Why are so many Muslims violent?
 
yankee_doodle said:
. Even look at countries like Sweden today (although my guess is gun ownership is severely restricted, as in the rest of Europe, it’s labeled the most irreligious country on earth while it rates highest in categories like quality of life, low crime rate, individual happiness, per capita income, etc.). :
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One last thing, what about the Spanish Republic of 1936 it was irreligious and the first thing that happened was the burning of Catholic Churchs, convents and the killing of priests, nuns, etc, etc, etc. There were allmost 7000 Catholic religious murdered in the first part of the Spanish Civil War and over 10,000 Catholic Churchs burned. The Catholic Church didn’t do this. In the Modern world all government control is bad.
 
Wrong the afghans claused the Soviet Union to retreat. In the beginning of the afghan soviet war many of the afghans had only british enfield bolt action rilfes. Also, look at the Vietnam war and our own Amercian Revolution. An armed man is a free man.
 
Start a pro-/anti-gun control thread somewhere else, guys. This thread is about Muslims and why some are violent, not about the merits of gun control laws in the USA or Europe.
 
jakasaki said:
This thread is about:

Re: Why are so many Muslims violent?
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The Cause of Allah:
The word(s) “Cause of Allah” appears 30 time(s) in 28 verse(s) in Quran in M. Khan translation.

Then fight (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) in the Cause of Allah, you are not tasked (held responsible) except for yourself, and incite the believers (to fight along with you), it may be that Allah will restrain the evil might of the disbelievers. And Allah is Stronger in Might and Stronger in punishing.
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #84)
searchtruth.com/search.php?keyword=Cause+of+Allah&chapter=&translator=5&search=1&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=exact

Allah’s Cause:
The word(s) “Allah’s Cause” appears 0 time(s) in 39 verse(s) in Quran in M. Khan translation.
Jihad (holy fighting in Allah’s Cause) is ordained for you (Muslims) though you dislike it, and it may be that you dislike a thing which is good for you and that you like a thing which is bad for you. Allah knows but you do not know.
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #216)

The word(s) “Cause of Allah” appears 20 time(s) in 20 verse(s) in Quran in Pickthal translation.

The word(s) “Cause of Allah” appears 29 time(s) in 27 verse(s) in Quran in Yusuf Ali translation.

The word “Cause of Allah” appear 13 time(s) in 11 hadith(s) in Bukhari translation.

The word “Cause of Allah” appear 34 time(s) in 30 hadith(s) in Muslim translation.

'Abdullah b. Mas’ud reported: I said: Messenger of Allah, which of the deeds (takes one) nearer to Paradise? He (the Holy Prophet) replied: Prayer at its proper time, I said: What next, Messenger of Allah? He replied: Kindness to the parents. I said: What next? He replied: Jihad in the Cause of Allah. (Book #001, Hadith #0152)
 
America is special compared to the tyranny of the european governments and the governments of most the world.
 
Dettingen said:
I was at first reluctant to join this discussion.

There’s a difference between religion and political motives here.

Many people have already correctly pointed out that followers of all the various religions have failed to live up to the teachings of their founders. Many people have tried to use their religion as a weapon against other people. Those of us who try to serve the Christ have a long history of failures, but I know God understands our human failings.

Having said that, I will just say that there are as many perspectives on Islam as there are Muslims. Some of the Muslims have great anger towards the Western world, and violently attack it. The vast majority of the world’s Muslims do not want to attack anybody. They want to work hard, raise their families, worship God, and live their own way peacefully.

Unfortunately, the attacks of the few angry, violent, conservative Muslims have been so spectacular that those outside the Muslim community have gotten a distorted picture of the faith.

Imagine what opinion of Christianity a farmer near Jerusalem formed after an army of crusaders marched across his fields? His opinion would be very distorted too.

Remember, the five pillars of Islam (the five things one must believe and do to be a good Muslim) do not contain a requirement to attack anybody.

For reference sake, here they are:
  1. must proclaim the oneness of God
  2. one must pray to God five times daily
  3. one must give money, time, and resources to the poor
  4. one must fast during the holy month of Ramadan
  5. if able, one must make a pilgrimage to the holy city of Mecca
Sects within Islam have modified/added to these, much as sects within Christianity have different rules/beliefs/practices. These are the most basic.

So why are some Muslims unhappy with the West and the United States in particular? Well, I’m afraid that in many cases the United States has not respected the sovereignty of Islamic people. For example, in the mid-1950s, in Iran a rebellion against the Iranian government was fermenting. The rebels did not like the government of the Shah and wished to have someone else. The US wanted the Shah to be in charge because the Shah was against the Soviet Union, with whom Iran shared a border. If the Shah was in charge, Communism wouldn’t spread to Iran and the US wanted to contain communism at all costs. So the CIA undertook covert action to prop up the Shah’s unpopular government, against the express wishes of the people of Iran.

The attacks on 9/11 resulted from a different kind of meddling, and here I think the anger isn’t justified or understandable, in contrast to the case above. In the early 1990’s, Iraq invaded and illegally annexed the rich coastal nation of Kuwait. Well, you can’t just go around conquering other countries like that anymore, so a United Nations coalition led by the United States drove Iraq back out again and liberated Kuwait. Afterward, Saudi Arabia asked the US to station forces there to be handy in case of future need, and the US agreed. But some ultra-conservative Muslims didn’t like that because Saudi Arabia is to them holy Muslim land and the US troops, not being Muslim, were infidels. So they thought the holy land was being corrupted by the presence of infidels. (Note that this is exactly the same view that led the Europeans to try and conquer Jerusalem and drive the Muslims out.)

So Al-Queda attacked the US on 9/11 because of the above. But, IMO, they weren’t being fair, because after all, the US was in Saudi Arabia on SA’s invitation. But, as has been demonstrated amply on these boards, ultra-conservatives of any stripe seldom behave logically.

My .02.

Pax

Dettingen
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And the pillar that you do not mention is their 6th Pillar and that is that every Muslim is to wage Jihad. What we are now getting from many sources are muddled information about that since they do not want us to know this 6th pillar especially since Jihad is mostly taught as violence against the unbeliever.

surah 2:190 where every Muslim on earth gets his marching orders to participate in holy fighting and is clearly commanded that no one but Allah is to be worshipped.

This is what their Koran says for Muslims to do, to wage Jihad. Muslims will dance around this fact but if they believe the Koran is their holy word from their god then they do Jihad.

zakat is one form of this Jihad. 1/8th of it is to be openly given to Jihadists. But there are actually 3 more ways this zakat is given to their Jihadists.
The primary purpose of Shariah is to promote Islam as the only legitimate theo-political system and to accomplish its dominance, through violent Jihad if necessary, worldwide (This is what is meant by the “Islamist” agenda).
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and then there is this command to wage a ‘just’ war against non-Muslims (also from the weblink I provided).

From Usmani’s 2006 book Islam and Modernism
Aggressive jihad is lawful even today for the purpose it was lawful in
those days. Its justification cannot be veiled only because the peace-loving
inventors of Atom Bombs and Hydrogen Bombs label it as
“Expansionism” and resent those who have put the chains of slavery
around the necks of the people of Asia and Africa. They are still bleeding
under these heavy chains.
At least in my humble knowledge there has not been a single incident in
the entire history of Islam where Muslims had shown their willingness to
stop jihad just for one condition that they will be allowed to preach Islam
freely. On the contrary, the aim of Muslims as declared by them in the battle
of Qadsia was, “To take out people from the rule of people and put
them under the rule of Allah.”
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To continue my previous post and to think that 9/11 was justifiable anger is beyond belief. You talk of the anger at the West but forget that Muslims have been attacking non-muslims since Mohammed’s time. The USA in the Islamic time table was non-existent for most of its existence. What was their excuse then? When we had no foreign policy during the time the Muslims killed over 1 million Armenians what was their excuse then? When they butchered 80 million Hindus who were they angry at then? And the killings are still going on in India. Don’t forget Musharaff telling us he used much of our money we gave him in his Jihad against India.

Or how about the Africans that are being killed in the name of Allah. How does that relate to Western anger?

I don’t know, we could go on with the stats of the killings of non-muslims by Muslim and if people do not know the history of Jihad then this will just fly over their heads. They cooly explain away these slaughters.

Ignorance of Islam is not bliss in fact it is dangerous. Here is a good article.
 
StaffSergeant, Thank you for your thoughts.

I fear your sources are not entirely unbiased, and that weakens your argument. The organizations which published the report you cited are both highly partisan and neither is an expert on matters of either theology or history. The document to which you referred is an extraordinarily biased and fearmongering discussion of Islamic finance and was written with a clear agenda.

As thoughtful people, I believe it is imperative that we seek knowledge from unbiased scholarly sources. In that way we can examine the evidence and evaluate it ourselves. Therefore, I recommend slam: The Straight Path by John L. Esposito as a reliable, unbiased introduction to the history and tenents of Islam. Esposito is a reliable source of accurate information because he is a scholar, not a politician. If you will examine his cv, you’ll see that his books have been published by esteemed University presses (nonprofit publishers with the explicit aim of furthering knowledge.)

Please re-read my post. I never excused anybody for 9/11. Iran was not behind 9/11.

I will now withdraw from the discussion of this topic. I’ve said my piece. I’m not likely to explain any better than I have thus far.

Pax

Dettingen
 
yankee_doodle said:
look at the Nazi state, inspired by antisemitism (and a view of purity) with its roots in Christianity. Communism was just that … atheism didn’t cause communism, it was the other way around.

You can also say the nation who defeated most of those evil regimes was the product of irreligious men (who were mostly deists or if you probe into some of their statements probably closer to agnostic).

The entire premise of your argument is based in ignorance. It’s propaganda designed for those who don’t know enough to realize how fallacious it is.
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What a joke. You must get your information from Professor William Maher.
 
sedonaman said:
What a joke. You must get your information from Professor William Maher.
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Explain to me exactly why I’m wrong (but let me guess, you won’t have an answer to that – just more emotive hyperbole and bumper sticker slogans :rolleyes:)
 
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